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First Lieutenant
Sep 14, 2004
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We have been doing some discussing about Byzantine to Kaliphate relations in the Kaliphate events thread, and had a few ideas about a Kaliphate attack on the Byzantines. This would be a major crusade event, think along the lines of the Teutonic Knights in Russia. What we wanted to know were, what do the rest of you guys think? Will this event interfere with other major Byzantine sequences?

Anyways, we would leave it open ended, with either side being able to potentially win. The Kaliphate would be led by Suleyman, representing the Turks, though, so we should perhaps consider a counterpoint leader for Byzantium. Don't worry too much about Suleyman, I have already proposed to downgrade him and I feel that we must do so or else create a monster...the Kaliphate doesn't need a new uber-general. What we might do is simply find a Byz general that already is present and up him a bit, and also remove the Kaliphate's monarch general for the same period.

Anyways, here are the ideas that were just put out for the conflict...note that we would include a Byzantine victory event as well, and see the Kaliphate events thread for more information.

Calipah said:
Well let me put it this way, I did some quick notes on it:-

War of the Thogor!

My Caliph, the Turks are being crushed by the infidel Byzantines, we must help them before Islam is queched from the Rum lands!Let us teach them a lesson as an example to Franks and Kaffirs alike!Yihhad!



War of the Inner Thogor!(1520-1550)

My lord, the fortress of Angora has fallen to our armies.We have contacted a mighty Turkish dynasty, the Osmanlis.They have a brilliant leader, by the name of Suleyman, he shows much resilliance and ability, and wishes to capture Costantinople herself for Islam!perhaps we should give him a chance?though I doubt these barbarians could do anything....


Begining of the Ionian war!

With the Caliphate and Byzantium clashing over the Turkish lands, it has become obvious that only one could reign supreme over Turkey.In 1543, a noble by the name of Egustus, ignited the Great war of Ionia by raiding the borders and towns of the Caliphate.Furious by the audacity of the Byzantines, the Caliph demanded recompensation from the Greeks, who refused to even repay the Caliphate for her losses.This ignited the massive Greco-Islamic war of Ionia.Many men perished as wave after wave of Muslim soldiers met wave after wave of defenders under the walls of Costantinople.Several cities were devestated , such as Nicea which was devestated completely.The Turks and muslims were forced to flee parts of inner Turkey as Byzantine mercenaries and cataracts burned and raided towns and villages.The Ionian war eneded when the muslims were halted in the small islands of Ionia, but only after the Byzantines faired great losses.Peace was signed with Byzantium,seceding Bursa to the Caliphate, where Governor Sulyeman Al-Osmanli adminstrated the Caliphates provinces in Turkey.

Second Ionian War

Suleyman grew tense as the Caliphate withdrew to fight other enemies, rather than capture Costantinople for the glory of Islam.He petitioned the Caliph in Baghdad to allow him to invade Al-Gostantiniyah.The Caliph agreed, but Suleyman did not fair well against the powerful Byzantine fortresses and castles built after the first war.This war however, was not a complete loss as Sulyeman mapped the whole of Costantinople, and readied his armies for an invasion that would freak the whole christian world, and send shudders in the cross's followers.

Battle of Costantinople

Suleyman led a massive armyof about 30 thousand Turks,equipped with muskets and canons fresh from Baghdad and laid siege to the Great city of Costantinople.He built a small palace to stand as a block against supplies into the city, not to mention he used a smart method of fairying ships by land on greased boards.After 50 days of siege, he captured the city of Costantinople, and converted the Hagia Sofia into a mosque.He sent the Byzantine Ragilia to the Caliph, who bestowed upon Sulyeman the nickname "Al-Fatih" and "Sayef Al-islam".The Empror and his advisors fleed to the south...

Turkish power questioned

With the Turkish victory against the Byzantines, it became apparent that they grew more bolder against the decisions of the Caliph in Baghdad, it was time to deal with them and eliminate their threat to the thread of the state completely.Some advised the Caliph to kill Suleyman, others encourged the Caliph to take stricter measures, while others were apathetic to the Turkish victory, the choice is yours my lord...

These are just some sketch ideas :D
Click to expand...


Feel free to comment or come on over to the Kaliphate events thread, and put in an idea.
 
oooooooooooooooooooooooooo my ideas are being discussed :p
 
Unless they have been removed, Kaliphate already gets turkish culture when Byzanz takes any miniturk capital and can get cores to most of Turkey by just taking ownership there. Imo that is as much as is needed to provoke conflict between Kaliphate and Byzanz for Turkey. Besides, (afaik) no other country gets good boosters for destroying other major countries, so shouldn't we keep it that way?
 
It's because Calipah is a bit biased...

:D
 
Im not! :mad:

But seriously, it spices up the conflict no?and giving away turkish culture shouldnt come too easily, Im just proposing :)
 
Byakhiam said:
Unless they have been removed, Kaliphate already gets turkish culture when Byzanz takes any miniturk capital and can get cores to most of Turkey by just taking ownership there. Imo that is as much as is needed to provoke conflict between Kaliphate and Byzanz for Turkey. Besides, (afaik) no other country gets good boosters for destroying other major countries, so shouldn't we keep it that way?
Click to expand...

well to be honest , there not boosters but loss of population, troops for Byz, war triggers and some other things,this is a recreation for the war of Thogor back in 893.
 
This wouldn't be a booster for destroying another nation....total victory in any case would be a practical impossibility for the Kaliphate given the Byzantine navy's superiority, and the Byzantine army couldn't possible make it all the way to conquering Baghdad against the Kaliphate's huge manpower. They only have a decent chance because of the mountains in Turkey.

Anyways, I suppose I should have said that we had already decided to push back the time when the Kaliphate gets Turkish culture, it seems by far too easy to gain the culture and the cores. We are looking at probably at least 50 years before they can gain the culture, perhaps longer...depends on who ends up being a "reform" monarch.

Either way, we would do our best to make the conflict balanced, and it would add a great deal to the storyline in game. Either way, we would program in some troop gains for the Kaliphate as war prep, and probably some support events and troop gains for Byzantium too, to represent support from other Christians.

Also, if the Kaliphate did capture constantinople, I would propose a crusade event led by Hungary with Italian and German support. The idea would be to make it impossible for the Kaliphate to hold their line unless they are the human player in SP or if they are in MP and everyone refuses to send Hungary troops. The result of recapture would be that Thrace would be ceded to Byz, and Byz might lose slavonic culture/become a Hungarian vassal. If the Caliphate did win, however, they would then receive a booster, consisting of some trade, naval, and perhaps infra tech, in addition to the conversion of Thrace. Probably not something too massive honestly, except perhaps in naval tech. Keep in mind the Caliphate's poor techgroup and that they probably won't reach this point anyways. Additionally, they are already going to be having incredibly serious revolt events in Persia, and may not be able to afford having any orthodox provinces....so it is unlikely that Byz will fall.
 
It would be difficult, and the events merely trigger the wars and cause population shifts and devestation.Consider the Ionian war, it began by enforcement, an insult to the Caliph...etc :)
 
Well, it sounds damn deterministic. It likely could spice up playing Kaliphate, but could very possibly make playing Byzanz miserable and would be quite irrelevant for anybody else. So in total, not worth adding, in my opinion.
 
we are going to add a Byz side too my friend :) weve just started the war, your going to have also a Byzantine set of events with victory , depending on the player.The Byzantines could have an option of apologizing to the Caliph for the Ionian war for example, or asking for help from Hungaria and what not.The Caliphate may have numbers, but Byz is greater in tech and I doubt the muslims can pass from Bursa to Thrace without a good navy, something they lack.
 
Well ok, it might not be just "Byz-bash" event set, but still it's deterministic. Very deterministic.
 
Why would it be bad for Byzantium? this is their chance to beat up the Caliphate and they will likely have the ability to do it. I would put in reinforcement events like the Caliphate gets against KoJ. Also, it wouldn't be forced, I would make absolutely certain to include an "out" to prevent the whole sequence from firing and create an alternate. I'm not in favor of determinism either, but why not make things interesting?

I can put in as a "C" or "D" option early in the event string for either side to calm hostilities, the ai will almost never pick it and it will be there for a human player. Would that be ok? Besides, the Caliphate doesn't actually make huge gains from this proposal unless it manages to capture and hold Constantinople, which I assure you I will make extremely difficult.
 
*Evil Finnish Byakhiam, just agree and be docile* wisdom of a Saudi Sage :p
 
Well, I would call it deterministic that in a certain year Kaliphate will dow me with 85% (or more) chance, if it's AI.

The first part is like it used to be, I don't have a problem with that, as long as the war is encouraged by giving Casus Belli and bad relations hit. AI is very likely to dow then.

Second part is nice one. It rewards Kaliphate for conquest there by giving them a good general, which is all good and well.

Third part is not something I like. At least not like it sounds now. Something for this effect that I would like would be giving first Byzanz event in (for example) 1540-1550 timeframe about making a raid into Kaliphate territory, with A being the raid and B being skipping it. This event would need something like "Kaliphate must own Angora" as trigger. Then if they do raid, Kaliphate could get some urging to war, again with relations hit and CB.

Fourth part seems rather unnecessary. It could exist as a CB giving event, if Kaliphate owns Anatolia.

Fifth part seems very evil, because it's not uncommon to gain control of enemy capital that is in neighbouring province. No matter if Byzanz would have naval supremacy. AI isn't always smart enough to block the straits and losing your capital by event for losing control of the prov sounds bit excessive... Especially if Byzanz is still doing well otherwise. This might work as "We have sacked Constantinopole" event, where Kaliphate would get cash and Byzanz some hurting, similiar to the genoan event for same purpose, but not as "We destroyed Byzantium by taking over Constantinopole" like it sounds now...

Imo you should skip parts five and four definetly.
 
the fourth part is somewhat like a boost for Byzantines, AND a CB from the Caliphate on them.Part 5 is in parallel with the Ottoman event, anyway it should be an event considering how important the capture of Costantinople would be. :)
They are trigger by certain prequisites.
In event three, if Byz raids Caliphate, the Kal will have the chance to DOW as the begining of the first Ionian war with great losses of population and what not, it will trigger the second one later. :) there will be some more as it builds up :D
 
Calipah said:
the fourth part is somewhat like a boost for Byzantines, AND a CB from the Caliphate on them.Part 5 is in parallel with the Ottoman event, anyway it should be an event considering how important the capture of Costantinople would be. :)
They are trigger by certain prequisites.
In event three, if Byz raids Caliphate, the Kal will have the chance to DOW as the begining of the first Ionian war with great losses of population and what not, it will trigger the second one later. :) there will be some more as it builds up :D
Click to expand...

I'm not searching for boosts for Byzanz, I'm searching for reasons to have war command events. Even AI dows on it's own, so I don't think even AI should be pushed to do it at bad time. Part 4, while of course giving flavour, it's hardly necessary part. Avoiding unnecessary event-fest is good.

Ottoman "Conquest of Constantinopole" event happens after they have annexed Byzantium and is exactly booster for destroying a country. As this is Aberration, where Byzantium is more than Constantinopole + some forts in Morea, I don't find that event very reasonable. Certainly if Kaliphate would capture Constantinopole it could give a nice booster while hurting the Byzanz (booster and hurt in levels of cash and stab), but hardly more than that.

Mostly the issue here is that using events to trigger a set of wars is deterministic and does give a feel of Event Universalis, like AD once very nicely said. Both human players and AI fight wars anyway, so why would they need events for that effect too?
 
I too find that war commands between Byz and Caliphate are a bit too much. Those two already go to war all too often (for the safety of Byzantium).

But I like the idea of naming those wars (1st Ionian, 2nd Ionian, etc). So, how to do this without a war command ?
Simple, put in the triggers of the war events "war = { country = BYZ country = CAL }".
Then, put "peace" events between each, to avoid having all the events firing during the first war. Put as triggers the precedent event. For example, 1st ionan war is a trigger condition of 1st peace, which in turn is a trigger of 2nd ionian war, itself trigger of 3rd ionian war, etc.

That way, combined with cores, CBs and relations hit, we have the events without the over-determinism. :)
 
Yes, I'd agree that the concept needs some work as far as win conditions. But then again, that's why I opened this thread, to get comments from the community instead of trying to present a full fledged plan to everyone and refuse outside input.

Also, who said anything about war commands? We will only be making it very, very likely for such an event to occur. Extended CB, massive relations hit, and cores (probably several temporary ones), will quite likely cause wars. If you look in the Kaliphate events thread, you will also see that I have posted an idea on having after war results, with population loss and events to rebuild. This is to try and increase the flavor of the period, which is our goal in creating this sequence. Between this sequence and the Persian events, plus a few interesting possibilities we have discussed on the side, we hope to try and make the Kaliphate more interesting without making it stronger.

Anyways, we still need Byz win conditions and gains, which is one of my main reasons for starting this thread....and obviously the entire sequence is negotiable with the Byz crew (is it just Byak now?).
 
What Byz crew? I did all of Byzanz on my own, except a few events which were done by MedicineMan. So yes, the whole "crew" is still around. :p

Thinking up byz parts of the wars would be easier if you would script or at least have effects detailed on what kind of events you would like to have here.
 
I'll try to work on getting that up, but we are going into exam weeks now lol...not a fun time for me.

Wow. I'm impressed Byak...you did a ridiculous amount of work pretty much alone, didn't realize that just one person constructed that whole structure of inheritance events. Though it probably says so in the credits :p .

Anyways, my biggest issue with this event sequence idea is that I have spent so much time with the Caliphate recently that I have apparently lost my edge when trying to work with other nations...so I can't figure out what to give to Byzantium if it wins the war. Any ideas?
 
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