Byzantium vs Eastern Roman Empire?

[Deleted user]

Unironically, Kingdom of Greece should exist in the game, both to allow for Greek nationalism in late game and as a formable for Athens or other post 4th Crusade Latin states. Otherwise, nice strawman.

embrace nationalism and renounce the Roman title. I'm curious though if they'll add a name rule for the Mughal Empire as well and change its designation to Hindustan?

 

[jabolmax]

Not in bad faith, it's not easy to quickly find something that would fit exactly the case with "ERE" (at least for me). West Frankia seemed the closest match since many years before the 1337 start date "Frankia" was divided into "West" and "East" one (and I remember learning about it in school, so someone is using those names today). Those names lost the meaning in 1337, just as "ERE" lost its meaning after "WRE" fell. What was (sometimes?) called "Eastern Roman" ("Imperium Romanum pars Orientalis"?) simply became "Roman". You can't have "east" without the "west" and vice versa.



"Really matter"? No. It's not something I would die for (though I'm still fine with being cut to pieces by some forum members). But I believe that from these three choices:

1. Byzantine
2. Eastern Roman
3. Roman

third one is the best and most historical, so replacing first one with second one is an upgrade, but suboptimal.



Oh but there is, I know it very well as non native English speaker who makes a lot of mistakes. Languages have rules. Some rules you can break and people will understand you, but they will notice that "no one speaks like that" ("I is of thankings"). And some rules, when broken, make it very difficult to understand the meaning - as the infamous "Chinese bootleg Star Wars" humorously prove.



It's valid, but that doesn't mean we can't pursue the better alternative than an ahistorical one made long after Roman Empire ceased to exist.

Oh, I have another one, maybe better this time. Why EUIV uses "PLC" instead of "Poland"? That's how many modern people call "PLC" and those who know history know what they mean when they refer to PLC of XVII century as "Poland". So, according to your definition ("I know what they meant, you know, everyone else know, so it's valid") it would be valid. But would it be historical? Proper? Would people defend it and say "there's no way to please them, everyone knows what Poland means, so what's the point in naming it PLC?"?

I believe PLC is a better alternative than "Poland" even though modern people use both terms.
Just as I believe "Roman Empire" is a better alternative than "Eastern Roman Empire" even though modern people use both terms.

There are many things I like about games like this one. The main one is the ability to create alternative history. But almost equally important is the knowledge I gain just by playing. There's plenty of states and other things like situation in particular region that I learned about from this game. And it's awesome, because history lessons at school couldn't focus on everything and not everything is interesting enough to me to just pick a book and read about it. But here - I can learn things while playing. I know, I know - "it's not game's job to teach history". But it would be awesome if it did and stick to history as much as possible instead of "I must apologize for Wimp Lo. He is an idiot. We purposely trained him wrong, as a joke".

That's the reason. I like Romans, I'm probably a "byzaboo" (though I often exaggerate a bit as a joke), but this preference isn't limited to Rome only. I would love to see all tags named as they were historically at that time, because that would help me with immersion (and I care a lot about that) and I would learn cool stuff. It's okay to know "Turkey". It's better to know it as "Ottoman Empire", but it's even cooler to know it as "Devlet-i ʿAlīye-yi ʿOsmānīye" or "Sublime Ottoman State".

I think that the option of using historically correct names or popular ones would be good. We wouldn't have Persia but Eranshah, instead of France we would have Royaume de France byzantium finally as basileia ton rhomaion et cetera.
Poland the PLC as Poland is not only historically wrong but also contradicts the idea of this country where every ethnic group had the same state rights

 

[Stami]

You guys do know that this is literally the easiest thing to mod right? Instead of diverting resources from what actually matters, you could take care of it yourselves once the game drops.

 

[Ataleh]

embrace nationalism and renounce the Roman title. I'm curious though if they'll add a name rule for the Mughal Empire as well and change its designation to Hindustan?

It would make sense IMHO. Now I wonder, since we go with historical names theme, how the Mamluks should be named?

 

[Sete]

Kingdom of Portugal and the Algarves it is then!

 

[Anna_Gein]

Perhaps, some people care about historical accuracy and immersion. Or even happen to be historians.

Yup. It is funny how we, who are aiming for historical accuracy, and can refer to secondary literature (but also primary sources) are being attacked by those who (I suppose), got their history from games and movies.

In return we get -boo nickname...

Sad state of the community. ERE is a good step, but we all know it should be the Roman Empire.

And just for the record, as some people do not check the entire conversation, why not to go for historical names option for all the major factions (at least)?

And I would not be surprised if Johan is planning exactly that, just showing the Romans as a prime example

This is ridiculous.

The only people making a fuse about names are thoses Byziboys getting their history from Paradox games and sometimes Wikipedia or 2 minutes of badly prepared and badly sources "history for noobs and player" Youtube Video.

People who have zero familiarity (mind, not knowledge but just familiarity) with Late Antiquity. Nor any developped thinking about it. And obviously never read the obligatory 10 pages prologue of any 1st year university level manual starting with all the possible names and then explaining how Byzance was both the direct continuity of Rome, but so were the territories outside Byzantine direct authority, and something different and so, for ease and because we pretty much never use the ReAl NaMeS when they even exist, we gonna stick with Byzance anyway.

Even the words empire and kingdom dont translate perfectly well with Basileia but some idiots will go full broken greek to claim Byzance should be called RoMaN EmPiRe or Basileía Rhômaíôn caused he saw someone equaly retarded claimed it on the forums and became a byzoboi.

Likewise nobody make ever a fuse on how we call the various Hellenistic successors states either Empire something something or Kingdom something something as it is just useless pointless pedantic BS worthless debate.

Wanna use some HiStoRiCaL NaMeS ? How do you suggest to name the misnamed Inca and Aztec polities ? Or How do you even suggest to sort out the whole situation when the name Burgundy was used in actual 16th & 17th centuries source to refer to a territory which was neither the Duchy of Burgundy nor the County of Burgundy ?

In the end of the day; it just some naming convention representing tags on a video game which will work nothing like modern era polities. So it is fine to call it whatever the devs or some fans like including ERE, Roman Empire or Kingdom of the Romans in whatever broken attempt to mimic ancient languages you want. But please dont make this absurd & slightly ridiculous excessive Byzantine philia into an argument of educated people vs uneducated. As it wont head in the direction you believe.

 

[juanen]

My spanish teacher always insists on "estadounidense" or so, for USA'ian

And your teacher is right. The most correct one is estadounidense. Americano is not wrong, but it's also quite confusing if you don't have context. This is all the fault of the US and the American founders, that picked a generic name for their country. Even calling them estadounidense could be misleading, as there are other countries that are estados unidos like for example México, which its full name is united States of Mexico. You can always just call them gringos or Yankees. BTW, t would be funny if you add to project caesar the formables nation gringoland

 

[Keksburg]

I gotta ask - will Middle Eastern tags have dynamic names based on the ruler dynasty name? Or it is set as definite name for the tag? So like if Ottomans would lose an heir of Ottoman dynaasty and get, let's say Mustafid heir. Will the country name change to "Mustafids" once he will ascend to the throne?

I think so, considering that Hisn Kayfa is called “Ayubbids” now. But considering that Ottomans is still Ottomans, this might be conditional, like if TUR is ruled by Osmanoglu, it would be called Ottomans; otherwise, it would follow the common rule that adopts dynasty name as country name.

Because if you do something, do it right. What's the point in naming it "Eastern Roman Empire" when:

1. it wasn't used in that time, so naming it like that is as anachronistic as "Byzantine Empire" (replacing wrong name with a wrong name)
2. it makes no sense since there is no "Western Roman Empire" in the game
3. it also uses an additional word which is simply unnecessary and wastes space

Should we call France "West Francia" then?

Considering that is a game option instead of common setting, I think it’s OK that everyone just pick what they prefer. It makes no sense to rob others’ pleasure just because they don’t prefer what you prefer.

Anyway, dynamic countryname modding should be easy in PDX games. I dislike the dynamic names in EU4, HOI4 and Vicky 3 so I wrote a very long list that follows my own preference, which would be played by me own, and I do enjoy my game more without bring unhappy to others.

For example, I would even prefer to use Greek alphabet to print the countryname of BYZ because I like it, but I would not suggest others to follow my idea considering that it’s not others’ preference.

It has nothing to do with the question “what name should BYZ adopt” considering both positions can provide their reasons and honestly speaking it’s not any hardcore problem. Just choose what you prefer.

 

[ero_sk]

You guys do know that this is literally the easiest thing to mod right? Instead of diverting resources from what actually matters, you could take care of it yourselves once the game drops.

Disclaimer: as I mentioned earlier in this thread, I don't really care about the name that the game uses for Byzantium.

But regarding what you said- I would agree at first glance but as a software developer, I can tell you that this is not how it always works. I don't know if it's the case here, but developers often like to pick up such low-hanging fruits as a break from bigger chunks of work and intellectual challenges. We sometimes do such things even in free time, just for fun. In the end we are all passionate about what we do, and focusing solely on often long and daunting tasks can be discouraging. Therefore, often it's not diverting resources at all, because if it wasn't for that simple, fun task, the developer wouldn't do anything else that is work-related.

 

[Lindaegan]

embrace nationalism and renounce the Roman title. I'm curious though if they'll add a name rule for the Mughal Empire as well and change its designation to Hindustan?

As long as the Delhi Sultanate is called Hindustan as well, sure, why not?

 

[Deleted user]

To choose is the best choice, though I would put "Roman Empire" or "Empire of the Romans" removing "Eastern...".

And sorry for not being main topic here, but I am on vacation and I could not resist making a sketch variant of the map. It's very fun

Spoiler

 

[jabolmax]

You guys do know that this is literally the easiest thing to mod right? Instead of diverting resources from what actually matters, you could take care of it yourselves once the game drops.

I know, I won't get any achievements with the moded game

 

[za3tarani]

so unnecessary to have a rule one tag, especially a rule that does nothing. why not give the ability to rename all tags (give nicks) ingame. this way, you can call whatever you want whatever you want...

 

[mehmeteking]

they never thought themselves to be the western part of it, but literally the continuation of the Roman Empire

So did Russians and Ottomans. It is called "Tsar" for a reason; or "Kayser-i Rum" for the latter.

 

[HaxMode]

I have no serious problem with the existance of Eastern Roman Empire or even Roman Empire as a name option. I'd just like to bring up in this discussion that among the Anatolian Greek diaspora, mainly in the Aegean Islands or Trabzon, the people called themselves Rhomanoi all the way until the early XX century and the Greko-Turkish population exchange.

Since many here make the point of "They called themselves that", did these people have a legitemate claim to see themselves as Romans as late as 1923?

 

[Revshawn]

I have no serious problem with the existance of Eastern Roman Empire or even Roman Empire as a name option. I'd just like to bring up in this discussion that among the Anatolian Greek diaspora, mainly in the Aegean Islands or Trabzon, the people called themselves Rhomanoi all the way until the early XX century and the Greko-Turkish population exchange.

Since many here make the point of "They called themselves that", did these people have a legitemate claim to see themselves as Romans as late as 1923?

Let's be honest the Greeks are really just the East Roman Empire in disguise. They're just biding their time to declare their proper title and try to regain the lost territories.

 

[Tissaia]

As much as I love playing as Byzantium / (Eastern) Roman Empire, I don't have an emotional attitude towards one name or the other. I'm just happy for all those who hate name "Byzantium" that they get a different choice.

But I wanted to comment on the map instead. Those dark coast lines are much lighter now, it looks better and you can see small islands better. Also colour transition from dark edge of a country to light colour in the middle is much smoother than on the map we saw earlier. It is definitely an improvement, especially for small countries - compare Neopatria on the previous map and here.

Basically I just wanted to say that I appreciate the changes.

 

[Arizal]

I'm not triggered much by that debate, but maybe the ability to change the name of any tag in-game would please everyone. I envision it as a sort of excel sheet you can open in the options with all the names, and you can change anything in it. I'm not sure how cumbersome it would be for the engine, though.

 

[LeandroB]

Do You really call them "Latinx" now? I saw it somewhere but thought it was a joke.

Got to be a joke, "latinx" is a very offensive term for latin people.

 

[LeandroB]

My spanish teacher always insists on "estadounidense" or so, for USA'ian

I know that in Portugal it is not unusual to hear people calling americans "estadounidenses", but in Brazil for example thats not common, we usualy say "americans".
If you hear people calling them "estadunidenses" in Brazil, you bet it is people with a ceirtain beef with americans.