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By the way do you think that the Paleologi turmoil need to be harder and harsher? Maybe add bancrupcy into it ? I'm not sure if it can happen by event. I personally had only like 4 revolts during the whole period, and stability goes up very fast due to -10 centralization. I actually found the turmoil to be a good thing, since I could colonise a little.
PS
How come I didn't have a civil war ? :( Its 1791 now and no civil war.
 
Sekenr said:
By the way do you think that the Paleologi turmoil need to be harder and harsher? Maybe add bancrupcy into it ? I'm not sure if it can happen by event. I personally had only like 4 revolts during the whole period, and stability goes up very fast due to -10 centralization. I actually found the turmoil to be a good thing, since I could colonise a little.
PS
How come I didn't have a civil war ? :( Its 1791 now and no civil war.

I agree about the Palaiologoi Turmoil. Much like the Vanilla War of the Roses event, the RR increases probably need to go up to really give players a tough time. The challenge is that the ai might collapse, even though we all know the ai can beat 20K rebels with a force of ten frogs. So there might need to be two events, one for ai and one for players.

The revolution has a number of paths to it. If you go with Bulgarian line monarchs, it can't happen, period.

Two lineages bring you to events where action_a leads to Revolution instantly, or action_b installs the conservative Isaakios Gidos.

Finally, if you have neither of the other two paths, it can trigger for other monarchs, but there are specific conditions. You need to have Serfdom 6 more more, Centralisation 7 or more, Stability 0 or less and not be at war. Very very specific and - I think - way too easy to avoid. Just stay at war with a minor, for example, or be centralizaed, but Serfdon 5. The civil war definitely needs to have these loosed up. If I had my way, the atwar = no would go, as civil unrest happens in war time as well. Remove the Centralisation requirement too.

But that's the reason you didn't have one. In practice, the civil war only ever really happens for the ai.

Hey! This is my 500th post! I'm the McGrath of Aberration II!
 
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Byakhiam said:
There is a clear rationale for merger of Merchants and Radicals. It's not an Marxist-Engelian class struggle, but a struggle for democracy, alike French Revolution. Radicals demand equal representation for peasant, bugher and noble. Merchants don't like to share with peasants. However, both factions share the ideal of republicanism and abolishing the old monarchy and when the conflict draws out long, they reconcile, reach some kind of compromise and unite into a republic of Hellas. As opposite, Gidoi and Doukai want to return to old system of strong nobility, they just fiercely disagree who should sit on the throne. These guys won't admit other's superiority as long as their emperor and his successors still live.

I guess then I have mis-read your use of the term 'radicals'. Your concept here is just great.
 
Turmoil isn't harsh in SP, but a rebellion that is harsh in SP is a killer in MP, where your neighbours like to take advantage of such weakness. To draw up a comparison, in SP Ottoman Beys are a piece of cake, in MP they are the greatest weak point for Ottomans, routinely taken advantage of by their human enemies. Turmoil is long period of 1-1-1 monarch, bad DPs and RR that kills income and recruitment, that surely makes Byza weak to outside enemies.

I initially made Civil War only featuring in the one specific lineage, AD later requested that it should be available for everyone. That's why it's general occurance wasn't as finely worked as it's occurance in the specific lineage.
 
Byakhiam said:
Turmoil isn't harsh in SP, but a rebellion that is harsh in SP is a killer in MP, where your neighbours like to take advantage of such weakness. To draw up a comparison, in SP Ottoman Beys are a piece of cake, in MP they are the greatest weak point for Ottomans, routinely taken advantage of by their human enemies. Turmoil is long period of 1-1-1 monarch, bad DPs and RR that kills income and recruitment, that surely makes Byza weak to outside enemies.

I initially made Civil War only featuring in the one specific lineage, AD later requested that it should be available for everyone. That's why it's general occurance wasn't as finely worked as it's occurance in the specific lineage.

Perhaps we should have a 'gentler revolts' option. This would certainly be a good idea with my TO, as I can imagine that choosing the bellicose Whites would be suicide in a big MP game. That said, at least they have poor snowy provinces on at least some of their borders...
 
Byakhiam said:
Turmoil isn't harsh in SP, but a rebellion that is harsh in SP is a killer in MP, where your neighbours like to take advantage of such weakness. To draw up a comparison, in SP Ottoman Beys are a piece of cake, in MP they are the greatest weak point for Ottomans, routinely taken advantage of by their human enemies. Turmoil is long period of 1-1-1 monarch, bad DPs and RR that kills income and recruitment, that surely makes Byza weak to outside enemies.

I initially made Civil War only featuring in the one specific lineage, AD later requested that it should be available for everyone. That's why it's general occurance wasn't as finely worked as it's occurance in the specific lineage.

I get your point, but it also depends on the style of play of an MP group, number of players and game specifics. Some groups are not as vicsous, some have house rules forbidding conflict without a CB (as mine does), as examples.

As an MP game first and foremost, we need to bow to the dynamics of that format.
 
I've mostly played cutthroat vicious games and AD is a vicious cutthroat type of MP player (imho), so some decisions do reflect that. :D
 
Incompetent said:
Perhaps we should have a 'gentler revolts' option. This would certainly be a good idea with my TO, as I can imagine that choosing the bellicose Whites would be suicide in a big MP game. That said, at least they have poor snowy provinces on at least some of their borders...
Yes, maybe gentler revolts for MP! I know that Abe is designed for MP, but I mainly address EU2 as a relaxing pasttime ;)
 
Whatever you do AI Byzantium for SP needs adustment. It has not readily performed to it's 40% pottential in tha lst 5 games i played as someone else. maybe reducing the number of hostile monors on both sides woudl help. maybe getting a few of them to be allies would help.

as a SP strategy most of my early years if much and positive income is to be had in the country and not a whole lot of turmoil is projected early on i spend all the money gettin military access form the neighbours. nort nesseccarily the ones who are potential targets but rather mostly the ones who are potential agressors.

it is cheap, but it is pretty much the only viable strategy i found for keeping well on SP oh VH/agressive
 
tarakan said:
Whatever you do AI Byzantium for SP needs adustment. It has not readily performed to it's 40% pottential in tha lst 5 games i played as someone else. maybe reducing the number of hostile monors on both sides woudl help. maybe getting a few of them to be allies would help.

Agreed. The AI seems to suffer from the Turkish problem of not controlling the strait properly, and being unable to fight on both sides of it at once. I actually see BYZ do reasonably well against the Turks - it's the Orthodox minors who seem to cause all the difficulty. Of Bulgaria, Wallachia, Albania, Moldavia and Serbia, perhaps 2 of them should be allied to or vassals of Byzantium at the start of the game. We also need to make these minors much less aggressive, so they don't spend half their time trying to occupy Constantinople for no discernible purpose, and at times BYZ needs to be less aggressive, so it can be sensible and diploannex the 1-prov minors instead of clobbering them. Finally, we can look at DP settings - it may be that the minors have eg very high Land, causing their morale to be more than BYZ can deal with.
 
Byz often die during the end of the 1500s when hungay and kaliphate attack it from both sides, annoying, but I can live with it. The thing is byzantium grow too slow, and allways seem to be easy prey, Hungary and kaliphate usually grow rapidly. I have nothing against Byzantium being weaker than them, but if they're major they should not be defeated so easily they are now, no major should be easy prey.
 
The Thrace region is a very important one for Byzantium as that allows second bridge over the straights.
maybe events boosting naval early on would help them much. ai only of course. idlf did a number on the ottoman empire in EP 1.5
 
Incompetent said:
Agreed. The AI seems to suffer from the Turkish problem of not controlling the strait properly, and being unable to fight on both sides of it at once. I actually see BYZ do reasonably well against the Turks - it's the Orthodox minors who seem to cause all the difficulty. Of Bulgaria, Wallachia, Albania, Moldavia and Serbia, perhaps 2 of them should be allied to or vassals of Byzantium at the start of the game. We also need to make these minors much less aggressive, so they don't spend half their time trying to occupy Constantinople for no discernible purpose, and at times BYZ needs to be less aggressive, so it can be sensible and diploannex the 1-prov minors instead of clobbering them. Finally, we can look at DP settings - it may be that the minors have eg very high Land, causing their morale to be more than BYZ can deal with.

The trouble with the Orthodox minors is a mirror of the problems every country faces with ai controlled minors around it. As soon as they are allied with someone bigger, the DoW someone, assuming you'll join them. Having Byzantium begin the scenario allied to some of these powers will ensure that that either Byzantium takes the stab hits for refusing to support them, or else will be in a war with Hungary and/or Ukraine in the first year or so. At this stage, the Hungarian DP settings and leadership will likely crush Byzantium, unless the ai takes on the offending minor first and ends the war quickly. But then that minor will DoW again in five years. The instability of the minors is something you have pointed out elsewhere and dealt with very well with regard to the German minors, it would seem.

An ai Byzantium can't cope with wars on its Northern borders. It needs to annex these little guys to build effectively, but the cores on Karaman etc drag it southwards into wars with the Khaliphate, which it also can't deal with early on. It's party because it's has naval settings at the start in contrast to its large aggressive neighbours to the North and South. Watching it from a distance, ai-Byzantium tends to do well mostly when Hungary is dragged away into northern wars, and the Khalifate southwards. This leaves it alone long enough to build a little more, but it isn't a sure thing.

The idea that Byzantium would start 50% naval if logical and poetic, but in practice the importance of these sliders at this point in the game to the all-important land wars makes it impractical. We need to re-set them to maybe 7 for Land, something that might deal better with all of their neighbours.

You mention the war settings, and that's something I thought we agreed on in another thread, to reduce all the general 1419 ais to zero for War to stem the 1419 bloodshed cycle. In fact, we ought to consider this for the next upload, just to see how it works. We can always edit them all back in about 15 minutes.

We ought perhaps to entangle the minors more effectively with their major neightbours. Set the relationships high and give most of them the MilAccess to prevent easy DoWs and RMs to reduce the risk of conflict.
 
Byakhiam said:
I've mostly played cutthroat vicious games and AD is a vicious cutthroat type of MP player (imho), so some decisions do reflect that. :D

Surely that's where diplomacy comes in, rather than softening events? Build your allies for the Turmoil period to avoid being carved up by AD. But, also, thanks for the tip, in case I ever play against him. ;)