C.O.R.E. HOI - Manpower increasing level

[Generalisimo]

well, tooking from a start point the new province.csv file that comes with 1.04. the new manpower increasing level are:

Country		MP	MP-CORE
Turkey		92	
Mexico		70	
Canada		63	
Yugoslavia	57	
Checoslova.	54	
Brazil		53	
Romania		48	
Sweden		40	
Holland		30	
Argentina	29	
Greece		28	
Bulgaria	25	
Australia	24	
Hungary		22	
Denmark		21	
Belgium		20	
Switzerland	18	
Portugal	18	
South Africa	17	
Ireland		16	
*Slovakia	16	
Colombia	15	
Finland		14	
Norway		12	
Com.China	10	
Manchukuo	9	
Tibet		7	
N.Zealand	7	
Ecuador		7	
Peru		7	
Venezuela	6	
Cuba		5	
Bolivia		5	
Persia		4	
Afghanistan	4	
Costa Rica	3	
Panama		3	
Uruguay		3	
Luxembourg	3	
Albania		3	
Irak 		2	
Egypt		2	
Mongolia	2	
Guatemala	2	
Honduras	2	
Salvador	2	
Nicaragua	2	
Paraguay	2	
Sinkiang	1	
I.Mongolia	1	
Tanu Tuva	1	
Philipines	1	
Haiti		1	
Dominicana	1	
Liberia		0	
Oman		0	
Yemen		0	
Saudi Arabia	0	
Syria		0	
Lebanon		0	
Nepal		0	
Butan		0

*Slovakia is included in the count of Checoslovakia.

So, you can see that a lot of countries are treated in an unfair way...
I think it is not a good idea to reduce MPIL, but we need to increment it for some countries.
So, i take suggestions....

NOTE: all the major countries are left out because all have plenty of it.

 

[hendriks]

REDUCE GERMANY'S MANPOWER!!!!

I don't know what they did, yes, I do know, they halved the MP needed for units, but they forgot to halve the MP pool.....
Germany can now field an incredible amount of very well equipped troops, I know that the halving is also for other countries, but their quality ratio is much worse then Germany's.

So, now Germany can build even more tanks divisions.
Heck, why build anything else? It has plenty of resources/oil especially to keep them all rolling indefinitely......

 

[hendriks]

Generalissimo, will you reduce the MP of Germany in 0.2?
Otherwise we are stuck with 1.04 MP for Germany, a bit too much I guess?

 

[Generalisimo]

Originally posted by hendriks
Generalissimo, will you reduce the MP of Germany in 0.2?
Otherwise we are stuck with 1.04 MP for Germany, a bit too much I guess?

well, i do not know exactly how much they have, and also, USA has a lot in previous version, so in this it will have even more (like you said with Germany)... so, i f we reduce Germany manpower we must the manpower of all the majors....

 

[unmerged(12760)]

yes, reduece manpower and resources too please !!

 

[Generalisimo]

Originally posted by Frank W.
yes, reduece manpower and resources too please !!

resources? why??? which?

 

[hendriks]

Proposal MP/Resources Germany;

-Reduce initial German MP pool by 1000. (really, if you play 1.04, Germany has an endless amount of MP, giving it the ability to create far more units then historically, also because MP needs for units has been halved, craziest idea in a HOI patch ever!)

-Have events introduce some 500 MP back over the war-years.

-Half all initial resources for Germany, the way it's run now gives 99.999 of everything by 1939, that's ridiculous.
1.04 has introduced (what they call WAD, but I say WHAT?) a high percentage of possibility to capture foreign resources when capitals are taken, adding to the already overflowed resources, totally a-historic. Don't say this already existed in 1.03 and before becaus eI certainly NEVER saw it before, now all Germany has to do is capture Amsterdam or Brussels or Paris and BANG, all resources are maxed out.............

-There is no need to reduce the MP for other nations, I think MP for USSR is rather low and USA about correct.
I really hope 1.05 will introduce accurate MP/resource levels, the problem is that you also have to work with a stupid AI, wouldn't it be great to have a command like;

if GER is _ human _ MP level=-1000

??

 

[unmerged(16851)]

In regards to questions about manpower, these questions should be asked.

1. How many people does one mapower actually represent?
2. Does the manpower cost for units represent #1 well.
3. What were the various nations manpower pool during the war?

I have a book by John Ellis called "A Statistical Survey of WW2".

It has wonderful charts and detailed information about many nations Military manpower, casualties and resources (oil, steel and coal).

For example of total war mobilization 1939-1945...

Australia 993,000
Belgium approx 900,000
Bulgaria 1,011,000
Canada 1,100,000
China 14,000,000
Germany 17,900,000
India 2,581,800
Italy 9,100,000
Japan 9,100,000
Netherlands 400,000
Norway approx 90,000
Poland approx 2,400,000
South Africa 250,000
Britain 5,896,000
USA 16,354,000
Yugoslavia 1,500,000

Now some nations not listed above only show numbers for war start, war end and/or peak numbers.

Germany's numbers are perhaps the most misleading, because at wars end they were using very old and young people as well as disabled veterans. This might be better modled by giving germany some free militia units if certain home territories are taken.

And, of course, I would assume a good portion of these amounts would be support services. Much more for the USA, probably much less for other nations.

Anyway, just brain storming and adding to all the thoughts.

 

[Steel]

Manpower in the game is based on a percentage of total population and each point represents 750 men. The manpower cost was halved in 1.04 which I interpret as a design point intended to abstract out support services within a division. With a HOI division being based on the Wehrmacht early standard division of about 15000 men this indicates that 10 MP gives you 7500 men in the "teeth" and an additional 7500 men as "support" (abstracted out).

You can find a lot of information on Germany at Feldgrau . Don't use historical mobilisation numbers as a guide though, HOI caters to a lot of alternate history scenarios - always base it on a percentage of total population, reduced for poorly developed countries and for democracies which had draft systems rather than total mobilisation (need events for those countries).

 

[Kevin Mc Carthy]

Reduce USA's Starting MP

Reduce USA's starting MP by 80-90% and add back in through events. In a recent 1.04 game the US had 116 divisions by 1940. This is completely unhistorical.

 

[Generalisimo]

Re: Reduce USA's Starting MP

Originally posted by Kevin Mc Carthy
Reduce USA's starting MP by 80-90% and add back in through events. In a recent 1.04 game the US had 116 divisions by 1940. This is completely unhistorical.

they start with 100 MP in CORE

 

[Kevin Mc Carthy]

Re: Re: Reduce USA's Starting MP

Originally posted by Generalisimo
they start with 100 MP in CORE

I just played a CORE 0.2 last night as the US--before I found the Italy bug. I noticed!

However, by fall 1939 the US had almost 1000 MP points. The monthly increase is too high for the US before the war, allowing it still to many units. I suggest cutting it back to 25 at start and cutting the increase down and finally add more MP due to events.

I'd love to see the point where the US still has less tha a dozen divisions by fall 1939.

 

[hendriks]

You have a point there, Kevin.
I, personally, think that 1.04 got flawed with regards to the fact that they halved the manpower needs for infantry, but didn't adapt the monthly increase nor the MP. This works out fine for the USSR, but not at all for Germany and the US.

If I compare statistics, Germany had some total of 17 million man under the weapons, but you can savely say that 75% of those were either the Volkssturm (<17 years, >50 years), much weaker axis sattelites troops and barely trained recruts.
The problem is that, when you count that MP, you would probably come to 2300 MP for Germany, BUT the game doesn't take into effect that the fighting capacity of those troops was a lot lower then the normal German infantry.
With the 2300, you can just build literally hunderds of hard divisions, and when you do it cleverly, you can defeat the world in the summer of 1942.
I have set the MP of Germany to 1000 for myself now, although that might look very low, I think it more or less captures the incapacity of Germany to build 300 infantry divisions and 50 tank divisions and conquer the world.
I have calculated that with the 50% casualties and 15-20 MP per month increase, you still end up with +720 MP in only MP increase for the pre war years. If a divisions is 10 MP now (?), you can field 72 infantry divisions "for free" between 1936-1939.
The nice touch here is that when you really need troops, you cannot just built so many infantry divisions, so you might have to resort to militia, so like history.

The same with the US. I am unfamiliar with their monthly increase, but it must be between 20-25, so the same calculation, some 100 infantry divisions between 1936 and 1940.
Maybe MP should be completely removed for the US, only the monthly increase, and have events increase it between 1939-1941 and a full MP add with the mobilization when Japan declares war.

In my view, the main "problem" areas in HOI at the moment are;

-captured resources maxing out the German resources when Amsterdam/Brussels/Paris fall.
-Manpower does not constitute poorly trained troops, through carefully balanced events (like Bolt did) manpower should be added to all states, like for the US in CORE now (though probably still too high)
-when playing very hard, you have an enourmous resource overflow because your IC is lowered and they are not needed (the whole map with resources needs balancing) and the need for resources needs to be tweaked to take into account the lowered IC when playing VH.
-the tech tree should "flow" into a new area of research, making almost everything previous a pre requisite. When researching tanks, historically you CAN'T move from tank level 1 to level 3 without ever testing and even producing level 2.


-hendriks

 

[McNaughton]

Democracies

Hi, I would like to ressurect this post, as I think I have a way we can improve the behaviour of some democracies in HoI.

There were a few nations that had relatively small increases in military forces before the war, due primarily to a lack of civilian interest in the military as well as budgetary limitations. HoI has a fixed monthly increase, based on an attempt to achieve historic WW2 manpower levels, but basing it on a constant growth. The model assumes that nations grew their military size constantly and incrementally. Some nations did that, such as Germany, Japan, Italy, France, Czechoslovakia, etc.. which had access to a lot of potential and actual manpower without fears of civilian outrage or limited due to low military budgets.

Nations that were restrained by budget and civilian problems and did not have large peacetime armies, nor the possibility of having large peacetime armies are, US, UK, AST, NZL, CAN, SAF, NOR, HOL, BEL, LUX, DEN. Some were able to field larger armies than others, while others had very small militaries.

The way things are currently set (in CORE HoI), the following nations get MP up to 1945 based on this formula.

(Note: MP to 1940(+starting MP): is total manpower growth, plus the manpower pool up to 1940 to show how much manpower HoI gives these nations before they actually go to war).

Democracies		Starting Pool:	Starting MP:	Events:		Total:		MP to 1940(+starting MP):
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
USA			100			390.0			7000		=	10 220		1560(1660)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
UK			1450			245.0			0		=	3410			980(2430)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
CAN			30			68.0			330		=	904			272(302)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
AST			40			25.0			300		=	540			100(140)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
NZL			15			10.0			50		=	145			40(55)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SAF			40			17.0			150		=	326			68(108)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
NOR			100			11.0			0		=	188			44(144)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
HOL			260			73.0			200		=	844			292(552)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
BEL			230			20.0			200		=	390			80(310)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
LUX			10			3.0			1		=	35			12(22)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DEN			110			21.0			0		=	278			84(194)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is my proposed system.

Democracies		Starting Pool:	Starting MP:	War MP:		Rhineland:		Austria:		Czech:		War: Poland		Later:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
USA			100		10.0		390.0										*(+2500)MOD		(+6000)MOD
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
UK			250		10.0		245.0								*+900		+1200			
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
CAN			30		1.0		40.0										*(+150)			(+80+100)+340
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
AST			20		1.0		25.0										*(+100)			(+40+100+60)+120
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
NZL			15		1.0		10.0										*(+50)			+50
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SAF			10		1.0		17.0										*(+100)MOD
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
NOR			0		1.0		11.0										*+30			
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
HOL			20		2.0		40.0		[*(+200**)]					+100		*[+200]			
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
BEL			80		2.0		45.0		[*(+200**)]					+200		*[+200]			
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
LUX			0		1.0		3.0								(+1)		*			
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DEN			0		1.0		21.0										*+50			
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Anytime there is something with (+###) it means already included in CORE HoI, but when you see +### it is a proposed new event giving a MP pool increase.

The basic changes are drastic cuts in starting MP pools, as well as the virtual elimination of yearly manpower increases.

Starting MP = the manpower increase per year based on province growth during peacetime (in most cases down to virtually nothing).

War MP = the manpower increase per year based on province growth during wartime (basically unchanged). HOL faces a massive decrease, while BEL faces a massive increase, since both had a similar MP growth potential.

Rhineland = manpower pool increases when the rhienland event fires. Currently in CORE There is a small chance that Holland and Belgium would gain +200 MP if they mobilize.

Austria = manpower pool increases when/if Germany annexes Austria (Currenlty nothing)

Czech = when Germany annexes the Sudatenland some nations mobilize their reserves.

War: Poland = when Germany goes to war against the Allies (i.e., attacks Poland) these nations get the following MP pool increases to show mobilization of reserves and civilians.

Later = other events during the game (such as conscription crisis', the fall of certain nations, etc..) that give MP pool increases.

* = when provincial MP growth changes from Peacetime to Wartime (i.e., when the UK changes from getting 10 MP per year to 245 MP per year).

This should fix problems with the following nations getting 20-80 Divisions in the field in 1939. Problems could be when the AI decides to upgrade industry, which uses MP.

 

[McNaughton]

Rethinking MP

Also, maybe instead of trying to make HoI manpower work on the basis of achieving MP equality with historic records (i.e., Canada mobilizing 780 000 during WW2 = abount 780 or 1000 MP points) and the actual number of units mobilized during WW2 (i.e., Canada fielding 12 Divisional sized units and an equivalent of about 6 Air Groups, as well as men for two cruisers, a carrier as well as numerous destroyers plus replacements).

Whether or not 1 MP point = 1000 men, or 750 men doesn't matter if whatever MP we give these nations results in an over abundance of units fielded and not representing where many of these servicemen and women actually served.

I think the main problem relies in deployment of troops. Canada and Belgium both mobilized about 800 000 troops during WW2, but Belgium had about 2x as many fighting units in the field (duirng their peak) compared to Canada's peak military fighting force. The difference is that more service men and women in the Canadian forces were in auxilliary roles than the men and women in the Belgian armed forces. For example, 105 000 Canadian servicemen and women were involved in the Air Training Program in Canada, never saw combat, but were considered part of the 800 000 mobilized, while Belgium did not have such large auxilliary units and put most of their forces in the field. HoI sees MP and sees it primarily as used in order to get military units.

Also, the United States mobilized over 12 million, yet had fewer field divisions (about 1/3 as many) as Germany who mobilized about 11 million. However, Germany put a much higher percentage of their mobilized forces in the front lines than the United States did, which is why they were able to field more divisions.

What we should do is to calculate and base manpower ratings on frontline forces (based on CORE MP requriements) and sufficient numbers of replacements, instead of basing MP on a fixed amount that does not take into account a dimension of warfare not modelled in HoI. It really doesn't matter if 1 MP = 1000 men, if we still constantly get Canada fielding 30 divisions.

So, in order to meet Canada's mobilization needs, they only need the following MP from 1936-1945.

12 Divisional sized units (all with Brigades 13 MP each)
156 MP

4 Air Groups (1 MP each)
4 MP

4 Air Groups Heavy Bomber (2 MP each)
4 MP

10 Destroyer Divisions (1 MP each)
10 MP

10 Transport Divisions (1 MP each)
10 MP

total MP to raise all of the following forces
184 MP

Enough MP to replace all of the following units once (representing replacement troops)
184 MP

Total MP to raise the following forces plus replace it all once
368 MP (round up to 400 MP just to be safe)

Currently HoI gives Canada about 900 MP. Enough to create the above set of forces over two times (including replacements). HoI is correct with the amount of troops in the military, just not correct about the amount of troops required to raise historic forces.

The RCN had about 100 000 Canadians serving under it, but 100-125 MP devoted to the RCN will give it about 75-100 HoI vessels (based on MP usage). In order to field the RCN effectively it should require about 30-40 MP.

The RCAF had about 250 000 Canadians servinge under it (not including the 105-130 000 in the Training Program), but 250-400 MP devoted to it will give it anywhere between 200-400 air units (based on 1 MP getting you basically any air group). In order to field the RCAF effectively it should require about 40-50 MP.

 

[Pkunzipper]

I really like your idea, IMHO acutal MP are too high.

This should be a very nice thing to test in order to put in 0.7!

 

[McNaughton]

Just a start, I think that the following nations should have these MP maximums in order to replicate historically correct HoI forces (included in these calculations are replacements, plus I rounded all numbers up). They should be able to build historic units, plus replace them once, as well have sufficient MP left over for IC, extra military builds and other improvements.

USA 5000 MP (Currently about 10 000)
UK 2000 MP (Currently about 3400)
CAN 400 MP (Currently about 900)
AST 300 MP (Currently about 540)
NZL 80 MP (Currently about 145)
SAF 80 MP (Currently about 330)
NOR 40 MP (Currently about 190)
HOL 300 MP (Currently about 850)
BEL 400 MP (Currently about 390)
LUX 10 MP (Currently about 35)
DEN 40 MP (Currently about 280)

These are all based upon a combination of:

#1. Starting 1936 forces

Some nations, like Norway and Denmark, already start the game with all of the formations raised in WW2 in the field, while others start from scratch. So some nations have much of their MP already invested in existing units.

#2. Amount and type of forces they should/did mobilize

Belgium raised a lot of Infantry focrces, by 1939, but had virtually no navy and a small air force. The Dutch relied on a fairly small army, but a much larger navy (which uses less MP).

So, I noticed some patterns in that many nations either experienced a 50% cut in MP, or remained almost the same, while some experienced drastic cuts.

 

[McNaughton]

Example for Canada

I have gone through and made changes to every nation in the Province.inc file reducing MP in all provinces.

This is Canada

#### Canada
province = { id = 2199   manpower = 0 } #Toronto
province = { id = 99   manpower = 0 } #Prince Rupert
province = { id = 128   manpower = 1 } #Ottawa
province = { id = 136   manpower = 0 } #Winnipeg
province = { id = 100   manpower = 0 } #Victoria (CAN)
province = { id = 149   manpower = 0 } #Montreal
province = { id = 153   manpower = 0 } #Halifax
province = { id = 148   manpower = 0 } #Gaspe
province = { id = 107   manpower = 0 } #Calgary
province = { id = 154   manpower = 0 } #Quebec
province = { id = 108   manpower = 0 } #Regina
province = { id = 137   manpower = 0 } #Sudbury

This is a revised war event, which gives Canada 50 MP directly to the pool, but increases yearly MP from 1 to 40 (68 per year was too much to represent a nation of 11 million, it should be about 10% that of the USA which is 390). I also shuffled around the location of the manpower to represent population willing/able to fight, not just population (Quebec was a very reluctant province).

##########################
# Manpower: WAR MODIFIED #
##########################

event = { 
	id = 402000
	random = no
	country = CAN

	trigger = {
		atwar = yes
		}

	name = "The outbreak of war"
	desc = "After the outbreak of the Second World War, thousands of civilians volunteered to join the Canadian Armed forces."
	style = 0

	date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1936 } 
	offset = 10
	deathdate = { day = 30 month = december year = 1947 } 

	action_a = {
			name = "Mobilize the military, we are at war"
			command = { type = manpowerpool value = 50 }
			command = { type = province_manpower which = 2199   value = 6 } #Toronto
			command = { type = province_manpower which = 128   value = 4 } #Ottawa
			command = { type = province_manpower which = 136   value = 4 } #Winnipeg
			command = { type = province_manpower which = 100   value = 2 } #Victoria (CAN)
			command = { type = province_manpower which = 149   value = 4 } #Montreal
			command = { type = province_manpower which = 153   value = 6 } #Halifax
			command = { type = province_manpower which = 107   value = 4 } #Calgary
			command = { type = province_manpower which = 154   value = 2 } #Quebec
			command = { type = province_manpower which = 108   value = 6 } #Regina
			command = { type = province_manpower which = 4   value = 2 } #Vancouver
		}
}

I will modify/add wartime events for the other 'democracies' that would have limited MP during peacetime so they will get increases at certain times (some will get this increase when they go to war, others when Germany does certain things, like when Germany occupies the Sudatenland England will get their MP to wartime levels).

I will run some tests to see how this works, but it appears to negate the problem of these nations building wartime armies in the pre-war times. I think that the one thing that the Axis should have on their side is that all of their member nations are able to mobilize in 1936 as if they were at war.

 

[McNaughton]

I am progressing very well on this. It will require the modification of many existing mobilization events, and the creation of others. The hard job of tracking down the provinces are done, and it is just the matter of putting the events together and testing to see how the AI does with these changes.

The downside to this entire thing is, well, it is not going to be extremely interesting being these nations during peacetime. There will be very little possibility in building mass armies for these nations pre-war, but enough MP will exist for some pre-war choices to be made, but they have to be made more carefully (will the precious pre-war MP be best used for the Army, Navy, Air Force or IC development?).

 

[Pkunzipper]

IMHO even some fascist countries actually have too much..
One for all is Italy... they have a huge manpower amount, in addition they have a "school of mass combat" minister that doubles the monthly MP gain!