C.O.R.E. HOI - Manpower increasing level

McNaughton · Sep 23, 2003

Results:

Here are the results of military units up to September 1, 1939

UK: 51 Divisions (half of which are original 1936 divisions)
USA: 27 Divisions
BEL: 20 Divisions
HOL: 12 Divisions (3 in Far East)
NZL: 7 Divisions (all are original)
SAF: 2 Divisions
CAN: 2 Divisions
AUS: 2 Divisions

Norway and Denmark only built two aircraft groups, and retain their 1936 Infantry OOB (which was exactly the same as their historic 1939 Infantry OOB).

The results are pretty positive, and the events all worked at the proper times (i.e., England got a MP boost when Germany annexed the Sudatenland in 1938 so that is why they had 51 Divisions in 1939 [much better than the 80 divisions they used to have by 1939], and every nation but the USA mobilized when war began in Poland).

I am looking at the second batch of nations, that should have reduced MP in 1936 but gain MP through other events.

-USA (finish the details on when where and what should be mobilized)

-Austria (mobilizes in existing events, currently their army rivals other Balkan nations)

-Japan (partially mobilizes when war with China, fully when war with Allies or Russia)

-Sweeden (partially mobilizes when war breaks out, fully if dragged into it)

-France (would follow a similar pattern of England, but have more MP in 1936)

-Turkey (partially mobilizes when war breaks out, fully if dragged into it)

-Czechoslovakia (they start with a large army already, and should only start mobilizing when Germany starts pressuring them)

I am also thinking about adding events for Britain and France to allow them to begin partial mobilization when: Rhineland is occupied and/or when Austria is annexed. There will be major dissent hits should they accept (since the populations of both nations were against war at these times). This is just to give the player an option to take a dissent hit and mobilize their forces if they want to.

McNaughton · Sep 23, 2003

I was wondering if we shouldn't do something about the Slovakian Army. When created they get virtually all of the former Czech forces, and are an army that rivals most others. How about an event that virtually eliminates the Slovakian Army and has them starting from scratch (like what happened)?

Kevin Mc Carthy · Sep 23, 2003

Re: Results:

Originally posted by McNaughton
Here are the results of military units up to September 1, 1939

USA: 27 Divisions

-USA (finish the details on when where and what should be mobilized)

This is 200% of historical for the US. See the posts and reference sites above. The 1939 scenario is a good guide for the US Army. BTW, no US Marine Divisions before 1941 because they were not organized that way.

I think you will have to tweak the 1936-39 US Ai to deemphasize construction of divisions even with lowered manpower.

The Framework for Hemispheric defense url gives a very good history of the incremental uping of the US Army after the war breaks out in Europe.

McNaughton · Sep 23, 2003

Re: Re: Results:

Originally posted by Kevin Mc Carthy
This is 200% of historical for the US. See the posts and reference sites above. The 1939 scenario is a good guide for the US Army. BTW, no US Marine Divisions before 1941 because they were not organized that way.

I think you will have to tweak the 1936-39 US Ai to deemphasize construction of divisions even with lowered manpower.

The Framework for Hemispheric defense url gives a very good history of the incremental uping of the US Army after the war breaks out in Europe.

I have yet to tweak the US AI, but the MP cut has decreased US production of Divisions dramatically without any AI changes yet. I figure adding some more ship construction would help, or possibly even lowering the starting MP pool (currently it is 100).

Steel · Sep 23, 2003

Re: Re: Re: Results:

Originally posted by McNaughton
I have yet to tweak the US AI, but the MP cut has decreased US production of Divisions dramatically without any AI changes yet. I figure adding some more ship construction would help, or possibly even lowering the starting MP pool (currently it is 100).

Add air units instead. Have you tried playing the USA or any of the other countries you modded?

McNaughton · Sep 24, 2003

I tried England until war started, but it didn't change my playing style that much (even how I play Italy or Germany), and since England has a lot in production anyway, I don't use much manpower and focus on research until war is looming, then I start production. If I had free IC's, I would tend to build ships during peacetime since these take the longest, but they also use much less manpower. I was also forced to limit upgrading industries, as this eats up manpower, but this was also something that I rarely do through experience that the cost is more than the benefit.

Since there are relatively few events in the pre-war system that cause MP reductions I didn't experience MP shortage pains.

I was thinking that a peacetime AI for the UK would be valuable (there are peacetime AI's for the USA, Canada, New Zealand, Australia and South Africa). I found it very useful to have these peacetime AI's, as you can focus on things produced before the war (primarily ships), while putting off expensive yet quick to produce aircraft and land units. Most of the democracies did this, until they went to war, then quickly raised up large numbers of land and air units when war began.

The USA starts with a lot of ships under production at the start of the game, enough that over half of the leftover IC (after consumer goods and supplies) is used producing them, so there would not be much IC, let alone MP, to build anything more early in the game unless we sacrifice research. The reduction of manpower basically restrains the reduced nations from creating large land armies, it doesn't do much for restricting air groups or naval units.

The main positive thing that I have seen is that the nations that have reduced MP are further ahead in research than equivalents who have access to all of their MP all of the time, basically, they are doing what most players do in HoI. The main question is that wether the system provides enough manpower when the war starts to make up for the shortages, or will the AI start building reasonable numbers of units instead.

Steel · Sep 24, 2003

It sounds like it works better than I expected

My main concern is for MP games where people tend to do a lot more ahistorical choices than in SP games simply by virtue of there being more people playing. It's very important that we don't make the democratic countries unplayable.

Generalisimo · Sep 24, 2003

Originally posted by Steel
It sounds like it works better than I expected My main concern is for MP games where people tend to do a lot more ahistorical choices than in SP games simply by virtue of there being more people playing. It's very important that we don't make the democratic countries unplayable.

yes, that's the same that i was thinking... when i usually play with my brothers we tend to do some really Ahistorical choices... it is the usual thing in MP games...

McNaughton · Sep 24, 2003

If people do feel too restrained I think we could add some events to allow for earlier mobilization, at the cost of high dissent. I just saw a BBC production of "Churchill: The Gathering Storm" which showed the great obsticles in front of those who wanted to rearm and prepare for the next war in England in the mid-late 1930's (it was even worse in the US).

There could be events allowing democratic nations in Europe to mobilize partially in January 1936 becaue of Italian aggression in Ethiopia for a massive dissent hit, when Germany occupies the Rhineland for another big dissent hit, when Austria is annexed, give the US an option to partially mobilize when Japan invades China, and so on. I don't want to totally eliminate types of gameplay, just not make it quite as easy for nations like the UK and US to have armies rivalling the USSR in pre-war times.

However, I want to reiterate that at least for the early part of the game there was very little choice and option on my part for the major nations (US and UK) for production since a lot of it was taken up by existing naval builds. Also, the main hinderance by this new system is building large land armies (MP is not an issue when creating navy and airforce). Since these democracies can't go to war because of WE, I don't see it as a problem if you cannot build large land armies that generally would sit around for 2 years doing nothing.

There are three types of minor nations, those that have no military but some MP (AST, NZL, CAN), those that have a military but no MP (DEN, NOR), and those that have some MP and some military (BEL, HOL). Each of these nations has the option to build extra units, just not in large scale. If NOR or DEN want different units, they will have to disband an existing unit (i.e., if they want aircraft they have to disband a division or a ship). The others have enough MP for a few divisions, or more ships/aircraft/IC development, but not enough to do anything in a grand scale.

It also does greatly improve AI research (I think commonwealth divisions had a 65 quality rating in 1940, but there were some problems in tank development as all of them had the Advanced Tanks tech researched, but no Basic or Light Medium Tank in production [the US did have the M3 Grant and the UK had the Vickers Light Tank] and aircraft research was behind as well as theories were researched, but no specific aircraft type [except that the RAF had the Spitfire]).

In my last test game I had the war break out on time, with most of the Commonwealth minors having only a few divisions (between 2-3). By the time Poland fell (about 1.5 months) and the battle of France started they were shipping their forces to Europe. Canada sent 4 divisions to France (which were extremely useful in delaying the German advance, and for a time were the only garrison of Paris), Australia even landed troops in Konigsburg (a problem I saw was that 12 ships of the French navy camped out there until Denmark was attacked...). What was good was that this represented exactly what happened in History. Commonwealth nations required a few months to get their military act together, and sent small forces to aid in the battle (vs. sending 10-20 Divisions over in 1939). Their armies remained fairly small, but I could see that they would grow to about 15-20 in size and have the capability to maintain them (not too far off from historic results). England was still more keen in keeping their forces in Britain though.

I have generally been pleased with the AI's behaviour, and I think some other nations will benefit from peacetime reductions in MP.

Szun · Sep 25, 2003

India would have not claim to be independant if UK was still in war. If U watch 'Ghandi' the movie (my only source of referance atm) it is claer that Ghandi did not push the British goverment during the war but right after.
The independant India did only happen after WWII. If U think of incooperate it into HoI (I know it is in basic HOI or was) its not historical even tho India went independant in 46 (or 47)

just my 2 cent, I dont really care if india is UK or not

McNaughton · Sep 25, 2003

I haven't done any events that will give options for early mobilization yet, these will come later.

I have MP limitations for the following nations.

Albania (0% until at war)
Australia (0% until at war)
Austria (0% until 1936 mobilization event)
Belgium (0% until poland or belgium at war)
Canada (0% until at war)
Czechoslovakia (0% until Austria annexed or war)
Denmark (0% until at war)
Greece (0% until Albania annexed or war)
Holland (0% until poland or holland at war)
India (0% until liberated)
Japan (10% until war with china, then 50%, 100% when war with SOV or Allies)
New Zealand (0% until at war)
Norway (0% until poland or norway at war)
Poland (0% until czechoslovakia annexed or war)
South Africa (0% until at war)
Sweden (0% until neighobours threatened or war)
United Kingdom (5% until Sudanteland events, then 40%, 100% when at war)
United States (5% until France falls, then 25%, 100% when at war)

Some of these nations gain MP in stages, others have large peacetime armies already or large starting MP pools, and they gain their MP under different circumstances, usually with significiant time before they go to war. Some nations have MP gains larger than others during peacetime as well.

I am planning for further reductions.

Italy (10% until 1938 reforms, then 50%, 100% when at war)
France (25% until Sudatenland events, then 50%, 100% when at war)

Steel · Sep 25, 2003

For Japan the manpower should be restored through the events I added in v0.6. The "early option" will be the 2-2-6 Incident, giving in to demands and installing Chichibu is designed for giving the player freedom of action at dissent cost already. I'll take a look at your changes and do the event coding for Japan as necessary.

McNaughton · Sep 25, 2003

Japan

That sounds like a good idea. Here are the events. Two are a chain of events, mobilizing at 50% each time, while the last event is just in case Japan goes to war very early.

Feel free to tag these on to any event you see fit. I perfer to tag these on to events than creating many new redundant events.

Event #1 gives 300 MP directly to the pool and gives Japan access to 50% of their MP (Japan only partially mobilized when war with China broke out)

Event #2 gives 500 MP directly to the pool and gives Japan access to the rest of their MP (this is when Japan completely mobilizes their forces)

Event #3 gives 800 MP directly to the pool and gives Japan access to 100% of their MP (just in case they go to war with the US before any other mobilization can happen)

Code:

##################################################
# 492096 - Japan Partially Mobilizes
##################################################

event = { 
	id = 492096
	random = no
	country = JAP

	trigger = {
		war = { country = JAP country = CHI }
		}

	name = "War with China"
	desc = "War has broken out in China, we must reinforce our forces."
	style = 0

	date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1936 } 
	offset = 30
	deathdate = { day = 30 month = december year = 1944 }

	action_a = {
		name = "Ok"
		command = { type = manpowerpool which = 300 }
		command = { type = province_manpower which = 1822   value = 16 } #Tokyo
		command = { type = province_manpower which = 1825   value = 14 } #Osaka
		command = { type = province_manpower which = 1668   value = 9 } #Sinuiju
		command = { type = province_manpower which = 1823   value = 9 } #Nagoya
		command = { type = province_manpower which = 1824   value = 6 } #Kanazawa
		command = { type = province_manpower which = 1681   value = 6 } #Kagoshima
		command = { type = province_manpower which = 1682   value = 6 } #Hiroshima
		command = { type = province_manpower which = 1819   value = 4 } #Sendai
		command = { type = province_manpower which = 1821   value = 4 } #Niigata
		command = { type = province_manpower which = 1683   value = 4 } #Kochi
		command = { type = province_manpower which = 1674   value = 4 } #Keijo
		command = { type = province_manpower which = 1820   value = 4 } #Fukushima
		command = { type = province_manpower which = 1684   value = 4 } #Fukuoka
		command = { type = province_manpower which = 1818   value = 4 } #Akita
		command = { type = province_manpower which = 1834   value = 1 } #Sapporo
		command = { type = province_manpower which = 1562   value = 1 } #Jinzhou
		command = { type = province_manpower which = 1561   value = 1 } #Dalian
	}
}

##################################################
# 492097 - Japan Completes Mobilization
##################################################

event = { 
	id = 492097
	random = no
	country = JAP

	trigger = {
		event = 492096
		OR = {
			war = { country = JAP country = ENG }
			war = { country = JAP country = SOV }
			war = { country = JAP country = HOL }
			war = { country = JAP country = USA }
			}
		}

	name = "War on two fronts"
	desc = "We are at war with multilpe aggressors, we must complete the mobilization of our country."
	style = 0

	date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1936 } 
	offset = 30
	deathdate = { day = 30 month = december year = 1944 }

	action_a = {
		name = "Ok"
		command = { type = manpowerpool which = 500 }
		command = { type = province_manpower which = 1822   value = 17 } #Tokyo
		command = { type = province_manpower which = 1825   value = 14 } #Osaka
		command = { type = province_manpower which = 1668   value = 9 } #Sinuiju
		command = { type = province_manpower which = 1823   value = 9 } #Nagoya
		command = { type = province_manpower which = 1824   value = 7 } #Kanazawa
		command = { type = province_manpower which = 1681   value = 7 } #Kagoshima
		command = { type = province_manpower which = 1682   value = 7 } #Hiroshima
		command = { type = province_manpower which = 1819   value = 5 } #Sendai
		command = { type = province_manpower which = 1821   value = 5 } #Niigata
		command = { type = province_manpower which = 1683   value = 5 } #Kochi
		command = { type = province_manpower which = 1674   value = 5 } #Keijo
		command = { type = province_manpower which = 1820   value = 5 } #Fukushima
		command = { type = province_manpower which = 1684   value = 5 } #Fukuoka
		command = { type = province_manpower which = 1818   value = 5 } #Akita
		command = { type = province_manpower which = 1834   value = 1 } #Sapporo
		command = { type = province_manpower which = 1562   value = 1 } #Jinzhou
		command = { type = province_manpower which = 1561   value = 1 } #Dalian
		command = { type = province_manpower which = 1624   value = 2 } #Zhangjiakou
		command = { type = province_manpower which = 1716   value = 2 } #Taihoku
		command = { type = province_manpower which = 1558   value = 2 } #Mukden
		command = { type = province_manpower which = 1627   value = 2 } #Linxi
		command = { type = province_manpower which = 1678   value = 2 } #Fuzan
		command = { type = province_manpower which = 1623   value = 2 } #Fuxin
		command = { type = province_manpower which = 1836   value = 1 } #Tomari
		command = { type = province_manpower which = 1675   value = 1 } #Taikyu
		command = { type = province_manpower which = 1673   value = 1 } #Shusen
		command = { type = province_manpower which = 1665   value = 1 } #Seishin
		command = { type = province_manpower which = 1677   value = 1 } #Saishu
		command = { type = province_manpower which = 1556   value = 1 } #Qiqihar
		command = { type = province_manpower which = 1555   value = 1 } #Oroqen Zizhiqi
		command = { type = province_manpower which = 1688   value = 1 } #Naha
		command = { type = province_manpower which = 1676   value = 1 } #Koshu
		command = { type = province_manpower which = 1666   value = 1 } #Kanko
		command = { type = province_manpower which = 1664   value = 1 } #Kange
		command = { type = province_manpower which = 1672   value = 1 } #Heijo
		command = { type = province_manpower which = 1671   value = 1 } #Genzan
		command = { type = province_manpower which = 1833   value = 1 } #Asahikawa
	}
}

##################################################
#  - Japan Mobilizes: No war in China
##################################################

event = { 
	id = 492098
	random = no
	country = JAP

	trigger = {
		OR = {
			war = { country = JAP country = ENG }
			war = { country = JAP country = SOV }
			war = { country = JAP country = HOL }
			war = { country = JAP country = USA }
			}
		NOT = {
			event = 492096
			}
		}

	name = "Total War"
	desc = "We are at war with a major power, we must mobilize all of our resources in defence of the Emperor."
	style = 0

	date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1936 } 
	offset = 30
	deathdate = { day = 30 month = december year = 1944 }

	action_a = {
		name = "Ok"
		command = { type = manpowerpool which = 800 }
		command = { type = province_manpower which = 1822   value = 33 } #Tokyo
		command = { type = province_manpower which = 1825   value = 28 } #Osaka
		command = { type = province_manpower which = 1668   value = 18 } #Sinuiju
		command = { type = province_manpower which = 1823   value = 18 } #Nagoya
		command = { type = province_manpower which = 1824   value = 13 } #Kanazawa
		command = { type = province_manpower which = 1681   value = 13 } #Kagoshima
		command = { type = province_manpower which = 1682   value = 13 } #Hiroshima
		command = { type = province_manpower which = 1819   value = 9 } #Sendai
		command = { type = province_manpower which = 1821   value = 9 } #Niigata
		command = { type = province_manpower which = 1683   value = 9 } #Kochi
		command = { type = province_manpower which = 1674   value = 9 } #Keijo
		command = { type = province_manpower which = 1820   value = 9 } #Fukushima
		command = { type = province_manpower which = 1684   value = 9 } #Fukuoka
		command = { type = province_manpower which = 1818   value = 9 } #Akita
		command = { type = province_manpower which = 1834   value = 2 } #Sapporo
		command = { type = province_manpower which = 1562   value = 2 } #Jinzhou
		command = { type = province_manpower which = 1561   value = 2 } #Dalian
		command = { type = province_manpower which = 1624   value = 1 } #Zhangjiakou
		command = { type = province_manpower which = 1716   value = 2 } #Taihoku
		command = { type = province_manpower which = 1558   value = 2 } #Mukden
		command = { type = province_manpower which = 1627   value = 2 } #Linxi
		command = { type = province_manpower which = 1678   value = 2 } #Fuzan
		command = { type = province_manpower which = 1623   value = 2 } #Fuxin
		command = { type = province_manpower which = 1836   value = 1 } #Tomari
		command = { type = province_manpower which = 1675   value = 1 } #Taikyu
		command = { type = province_manpower which = 1673   value = 1 } #Shusen
		command = { type = province_manpower which = 1665   value = 1 } #Seishin
		command = { type = province_manpower which = 1677   value = 1 } #Saishu
		command = { type = province_manpower which = 1556   value = 1 } #Qiqihar
		command = { type = province_manpower which = 1555   value = 1 } #Oroqen Zizhiqi
		command = { type = province_manpower which = 1688   value = 1 } #Naha
		command = { type = province_manpower which = 1676   value = 1 } #Koshu
		command = { type = province_manpower which = 1666   value = 1 } #Kanko
		command = { type = province_manpower which = 1664   value = 1 } #Kange
		command = { type = province_manpower which = 1672   value = 1 } #Heijo
		command = { type = province_manpower which = 1671   value = 1 } #Genzan
		command = { type = province_manpower which = 1833   value = 1 } #Asahikawa
	}
}

Here are the additions to the Provinces.INC file

Code:

province = { id = 1822   manpower = 2 } #Tokyo
province = { id = 1825   manpower = 2 } #Osaka
province = { id = 1668   manpower = 2 } #Sinuiju
province = { id = 1823   manpower = 2 } #Nagoya
province = { id = 1824   manpower = 2 } #Kanazawa
province = { id = 1681   manpower = 2 } #Kagoshima
province = { id = 1682   manpower = 2 } #Hiroshima
province = { id = 1819   manpower = 1 } #Sendai
province = { id = 1821   manpower = 1 } #Niigata
province = { id = 1683   manpower = 1 } #Kochi
province = { id = 1674   manpower = 1 } #Keijo
province = { id = 1820   manpower = 1 } #Fukushima
province = { id = 1684   manpower = 1 } #Fukuoka
province = { id = 1818   manpower = 1 } #Akita
province = { id = 1834   manpower = 1 } #Sapporo
province = { id = 1562   manpower = 1 } #Jinzhou
province = { id = 1561   manpower = 1 } #Dalian
province = { id = 1624   manpower = 1 } #Zhangjiakou
province = { id = 1716   manpower = 0 } #Taihoku
province = { id = 1558   manpower = 0 } #Mukden
province = { id = 1627   manpower = 0 } #Linxi
province = { id = 1678   manpower = 0 } #Fuzan
province = { id = 1623   manpower = 0 } #Fuxin
province = { id = 1836   manpower = 0 } #Tomari
province = { id = 1675   manpower = 0 } #Taikyu
province = { id = 1673   manpower = 0 } #Shusen
province = { id = 1665   manpower = 0 } #Seishin
province = { id = 1677   manpower = 0 } #Saishu
province = { id = 1556   manpower = 0 } #Qiqihar
province = { id = 1555   manpower = 0 } #Oroqen Zizhiqi
province = { id = 1688   manpower = 0 } #Naha
province = { id = 1676   manpower = 0 } #Koshu
province = { id = 1666   manpower = 0 } #Kanko
province = { id = 1664   manpower = 0 } #Kange
province = { id = 1672   manpower = 0 } #Heijo
province = { id = 1671   manpower = 0 } #Genzan
province = { id = 1833   manpower = 0 } #Asahikawa

Steel · Sep 25, 2003

Have you tested:

- What happens if Japan doesn't own some of these provinces? Does the MP change still take place?

- What happens if a province is occupied and then re-taken? Does MP revert to province.csv value?

- What happens if a province is nuked and one of the events fire afterwards? Presumably the manpower is restored...

- What happens if a player picks hardest level of difficulty in the setup event?

McNaughton · Sep 25, 2003

Originally posted by Steel
- What happens if Japan doesn't own some of these provinces? Does the MP change still take place?

The MP change does not take place if the provinces are lost. However, unless the provinces are lost through events, Japan must be at war, and when they are at war, they get full MP. The main concern would be what if Japan lost provinces to China that don't get upgraded until they reach total war (i.e., fighting more than just China). I could just rework the system so that when they go to war against China, all provinces they own in Manchuria would be moved up to their population maximum, but provinces in mainland Japan would not be at their maximum. China would have to invade mainland Japan for this to be a problem (it can occur, but it would be very rare).

- What happens if a province is occupied and then re-taken? Does MP revert to province.csv value?

Same as above, all provinces revert back to original Province.csv levels whenever the nation that owns the province is at war through the mobilization event, so it won't really matter (unless it matches that limited example with Japan and China).

- What happens if a province is nuked and one of the events fire afterwards? Presumably the manpower is restored...

I also assume that most nations will have had these MP events fire well before they could get nuked, since they have to be at war, and all provinces are at max MP when a nation joins the war. Most minors get to their full MP level at the latest when they enter a war. Major nations usually get half, or so, in an event before they join the war, and the rest one they are at war. Unless a nation can be nuked before they are at war, then there will be no problem in this regard.

- What happens if a player picks hardest level of difficulty in the setup event?

MP levels are not affected by difficulty (tested this and there are no changes that I can see). The only tweak we will have to do is with the CORE starting handicap events. Since nations like the UK will no longer start with 1450 MP in the pool, having a difficulty event that lowers their starting MP by 500 or 800 will bring them down to zero if they start with 100 MP.

unmerged(15066) · Sep 25, 2003

Political Limits on MP

Just a thought here. In the US, UK, well the whole Anglosphere actually, the government set the size of the military at levels far lower than the demographics would have supported. Should we pick this up from that end? That is, we should go even further in limiting MP insofar as it is purely a political decision instead of demographic one.

For example, in the 1936 scenario you leave only 50 MP at the player's discretion for the USA. Unless here are political events that justify raising the military force level you hold them to that.

One of the benefits here is that you can look at the various crises and now you have another axis of consequences (the popular press goads a parsiminous parliament/congress to vote for increasing the military by releasing more MP into the pool.) Between unemployment and natural increase until you get into hot war, you can probably just adjust MP levels by event command. The MP pool is really just a budget authorization and until you build the unit, it's not real combat power.

You also have an incentive to re-equip your units to the latest tech since it is cheaper in manpower to upgrade instead of adding new (because of the force structure limitation.

McNaughton · Sep 25, 2003

Re: Political Limits on MP

Originally posted by Engineer
Just a thought here. In the US, UK, well the whole Anglosphere actually, the government set the size of the military at levels far lower than the demographics would have supported. Should we pick this up from that end?

For example after you subtract out the existing forces you leave only 30 or 40 MP at the player's discretion for the USA. Unless here are political events that justify raising the military force level you hold them to that and subtract out the routine MP accretion until the draft.

One of the benefits here is that you can look at the various crises and now you have another effect level to goad a parsiminous parliament/congress to vote for increasing the military by releasing more MP into the pool. You also have an incentive to re-equip your units to the latest tech since it is cheaper in manpower to upgrade instead of adding new (because of the force structure limitation.

Both the government and population were not keen on large militaries, due to budgetary expenses that resulted in the government keeping militaries low, and civilians not interested in joining the army for little pay or adventure. Even when things were happening (in Asia and Europe), the democracies faced an uphill battle against both the opposition and their own parties, and the bulk of the civilian population.

There could be certain events that could result in limited mobilization (i.e., getting 50 MP into the pool) by some nations, but could not justify total mobilization.

UK and France:

-Rhineland occupation
-Annexation of Austria
-Ethiopia
-Aggression toward minor states (such as Albania)

United States

-Defeat of France/England
-Japanese aggression in China (such as Panay incident)
-Annexation of China
-Japanese aggression in Southeast Asia (vs. Netherlands/France/England/Australia)

I don't want to make it too easy for these nations to mobilize heavily before the war. Dissent hits should go down as the nation gets closer to war, but it should still be high enough to have a player really think twice before they ask for 200 MP from congress in 1937. Possibly there could be a small chance that even though you ask for MP you might not get it, but you would still get the dissent, symbolizing that congress/parliament has turned you down after your request. Also, it should require you to have a pro-war government in power, or at least the government that is least against war.

Steel · Sep 25, 2003

SIA + PHI manpower

Hmmm.... nothing to do with McNaughton's excellent work but...

Does anybody know why Siam has less MP gain than Luxembourg? Any suggestions for which provinces should have what MP levels in Siam?

Phillipines needs a major overhaul as well.

McNaughton · Sep 26, 2003

Re: SIA + PHI manpower

Originally posted by Steel
Hmmm.... nothing to do with McNaughton's excellent work but...

Does anybody know why Siam has less MP gain than Luxembourg? Any suggestions for which provinces should have what MP levels in Siam?

Phillipines needs a major overhaul as well.

While Thailand didn't have a huge army, about 100-150 000 men, it was significantly higher than Luxembourg.

I think that Bangkok and the coastal areas should have higher levels of MP than the inland zones, as these were fairly hilly and under-developed. I say, give them about 10 or so MP.

The Philippines is another matter. They were virtually a US protectorate until MacArthur came in and was allowed to start raising a national Philippino Army. Before this time the only Philippino's that served in the military served in the US military. MacArthur had a lot of problems getting this army set up, and had to start with virtually nothing and wait for handouts from the US.

unmerged(15066) · Sep 26, 2003

MP from Crisis

McNaughton:

There could be certain events that could result in limited mobilization (i.e., getting 50 MP into the pool) by some nations, but could not justify total mobilization.

Agree. Some historical and ahistorical crisis that might trigger this.

- Munich
- Absorption of rump Czech Republic
- Civil war in Mexico for USA
- Invasion of Canada for USA
- Just the outbreak of WW2 for the USA
- Possibly a WE trigger to feed some more MP in for democracies.
- Axis alliance states in the Western Hemisphere for USA (There's your Monroe Doctrine in action)
- A really bad revolt in the Empire (for UK - Afghanistan/Iraq/Palestine/India/Egypt, etc)
- A PR blunder by Germany that tips Hitler's murderous hand early.

If this is fully adopted by Core, I should tweak my Panay script to include some MP effects to line up with this philsophy.

C.O.R.E. HOI - Manpower increasing level

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