C.O.R.E. HOI - Naval Mod

[Crazyhorse]

Down below you question being listed as De Zeven Provencien-class. This is due to the limitation for only having a single class name for each model. I went with De Zeven Provencien for the coast defence ship because that was the most recent.

I can't even find a mentioning of a class called De Zeven Provincien.

http://home.planet.nl/~jviss000/

There at Soerabaja they say Soerabaja class and that is a upgrade heemskerk class.

Perhaps you mean the Eendracht class (of which of the ships would be called De zeven Provincien) and which was the best cruiser class. Or the batlecruiser class which were under construction in 1939.

I must say It's getting a bit weird with all the ships which we're named De zeven provincien and de ruyter and changed again and again.

Here is a quote from Conway's...

"De Zeven Provencien was refitted as a gunnery TS (training ship) 1935-1936, for service in the East Indies, her armament being reduced, 5 boilers removed and the remaining three converted to oil fuel. She was renamed Soerabaia in 1936.​

Note the spelling of the name. With here lesser armement it makes sense that she has a lower attack rating. I haven't found anything that mentions that the Heenskerk had her armament reduced until the 1939 refit where she recieved 2 240mm (9") and 2 40mm (1.5") AA guns.

While my sources all say the spelling is Soerabaja. But this is a minor issue. You are correct that she was refitted to a TS and was ready in 1936. I did not looked that far. You score a point here.

I am not quite sure what this problem is....

That was regarding the stats in the game and the class issue.

Their use is very similar to the Danish Peter Iuel-class coast defence ships. These ships were treated by their operating countries as capital ships. In the next release of CORE, the stats for the Coast Defence ship will be lowered to reflect their smaller size and lesser armament. They are split apart from the cruisers in all of the reference material that I have. I plan on keeping the class name as De Zeven Provencien because that is the most recent class of coast defence ship completed by the Netherlands. If I wanted to make the class name for the Heemskerk I would go with her class name of Koningin Regentes-class, but that wouldn't make much sense to anyone.

Can you give me some links? Because I can't find a reference to the De Zeven Provincien class.

Yeah, that was supposed to be corrected for 0.8, but that came a little sooner than I expected o. It will be fixed.

OK.

I can't change the stats for a ship under construction or for a class for a single country.

Damn.

Sumatra was the first ship to be ordered and the first one to be launched. I think that is why Conway's has it listed as the Sumatra-class and that is what I used. If you want, that would be pretty easy to change.

Java: Laid down 31 May 1916 / Launched 6 August 1921 / Commisioned 1 May 1925
Sumatra: Laid down 15 July 1916 / Launched 29 December 1920 / Commisioned 26 May 1926

there were some problems with raw materials, strikes, Money, the starting of an 8 hour workingday and problems with the boilers. So this was a big mess.

But please change the name!

The base stats for the light cruiser model (which these ships are) have a base defence of 3 already. I am not sure why they are showing a 2 unless they have a doctrine which lowers their defence ratings.

I will check this in my game.

EDIT: You are right I mistyped. Sorry.

Looking through my information that my CORE games runs with, Tromp is a light cruiser (model 3). That should give her these stats on completion.

# 3 - Light Cruiser
model = {
	cost				= 5
	buildtime 			= 280
	defaultorganisation 		= 30
	manpower			= 1
	maxspeed			= 30
	surfacedetectioncapability	= 3
	airdetectioncapability		= 1
	subdetectioncapability		= 1
	visibility			= 65
	seadefence			= 3
	airdefence			= 1
	seaattack			= 6
	subattack			= 0
	airattack			= 1
	shorebombardment		= 1
	transportcapability		= 0
	aircraftcapacity		= 0
	range				= 8000
	supplyconsumption		= 1
	fuelconsumption			= 1
}

The only thing that I can think of is that you have researched some of the techs that alter the stats for your cruisers ealry in the game. That will change the cruisers from the historical norm. It would also change the stats on the Java and Sumatra if you had refitted them prior to looking at their stats. If you had researched Commerce Raiding Cruisers as a tech that would lower your speed by two knots, lower your attack and defence by 1 point, and increase your range. Based on the information from above, that is what happened..

Will check again only I did not research anything I was just letting the game roll and see the events.................

EDIT: Just changed the ready date of the Tromp and the stats are 7-1-1-2-2. The same as of the Java & Sumatra. What is obvious because its the same class. So help?????

 

[Crazyhorse]

Flores and Soemba were two gunboats commisioned in the mid-1920s. They had a displacement of 1457 tons and 3 150mm (5.9") guns as armament. They are sloops in the game, but will also be effected by the Commerce Raiding doctrine, so their stats might not match up as perfectly.

Don't forget that we are limited by models. The classification of the different ships is made based on the stats that are available for an unmodified ship of that model. Some of the decisions are made based on the design and configuration of the ships in question. The De Ruyter is a treaty light cruiser even though her displacement is closer to a WW1 light cruiser in other countries. This due to the fact that her main guns are concentrated in turrets at the ends of the vessel. The Tromp was made a model of the WW1 light cruiser because of her really small size (3800 tonnes).

I do realise the problems you have making CORE as accurate as possible with the limited models. One of the reasons playing CORE is the naval improvements.

Regarding the Flores and Soemba. The class should be Flores Class. Or is the reason that it is called Kinsbergen because Kinsbergen was the latest model sloop the dutch had? Only they started construction on the Kinsbergen in 1937 and it was commisioned in august 1939.

When I was picking the name for the class, I had to select class names that would give the proper image. I can have either the Tromp-class CL or the Java/Sumatra-class CL. I can make it either one, whichever one you feel gives the proper mental image. If it was possible, I would reduce the sea defence rating for the Tromp to take into account her small size, but this is one time where the limitations of the models works in the players favor by giving a more powerful vessel than history. If it looks like we need a new model to represent small, modern light cruisers, we can look at that as an option. I can put it into the game fairly easily, but the decision has to be made quickly so it can get into 0.8 with the new treaty sloop. I hope this lets you see the decisions that I made while classifying the different ships. Let me know what you think. MDow

I think you should make it TROMP class. Although it is a fairly modern cruiser. But in my opinion having the Tromp and the java/sumatra as the same class of ship just does not feel right given the difference in real life. But Making it Tromp class would be somewhat of a downgrade.

Damn this is a tricky one. I think make it Tromp.

Do you have other models? And do you mean with that the images displayed in the game?

 

[Gwalcmai]

I don't know how to code yet! o We COULD just put them in Eritrea...

Wouldn't the best way to "code" convoys be to open the game, create them, save, and copy the convoy from the save file?

 

[Semi-Lobster]

I do realise the problems you have making CORE as accurate as possible with the limited models. One of the reasons playing CORE is the naval improvements.

Well thanks!

Regarding the Flores and Soemba. The class should be Flores Class. Or is the reason that it is called Kinsbergen because Kinsbergen was the latest model sloop the dutch had? Only they started construction on the Kinsbergen in 1937 and it was commisioned in august 1939.

Exactly, it was the newest model to be made for the Dutch Navy, one would assume the naval planners in Amsterdam (after 1936) would choose to build their latest model of ship as opposed to new ships based on a +10 year old design (although the Flores class was very reliable with good armament and was one of the few sloops to have armour)

I think you should make it TROMP class. Although it is a fairly modern cruiser. But in my opinion having the Tromp and the java/sumatra as the same class of ship just does not feel right given the difference in real life. But Making it Tromp class would be somewhat of a downgrade.

Damn this is a tricky one. I think make it Tromp.

I think I'll leave this for MateDow

Wouldn't the best way to "code" convoys be to open the game, create them, save, and copy the convoy from the save file?

Like I said, I don't know how to yet

 

[Crazyhorse]

How do you determine how many submarine, destroyer and transportships are selected for the OOB?

 

[Semi-Lobster]

How do you determine how many submarine, destroyer and transportships are selected for the OOB?

On average 5 destroyers or submarines per flotilla. But that's not always the case, sometimes it can be 6 or 4

 

[Crazyhorse]

Ok here I go again.

The German Raubvogel class destroyer has a range of 750 (km) in the game. While iirl it had a range of 1800 Miles at 17 knots.

Is this again an example from the limited models available?

If yes then the following changes should be made to holland:

Van Galen Class should be called Admiralen I class

Tjerk Hiddes Class should be called Admiralen II class (As this was the second batch with some changes)

The next available class for the Netherlands would then be the Gerard Callenburgh class (large Destroyer tech?)

OOB should be:

2x torpedoboat Z1
1x Admiralen I class
1x Admiralen II class

I’m going out of IIRL 4x Admiralen I and 4x Admiralen II destroyers and 9 other various ship.

The van Galen was a Admiralen II class ship and the Tjerk Hiddes was a Gerard Callenburg class destroyer (laid down end 1938).

Submarines:

First an Error. The sub under construction is of the XIX class. Strange because this class can’t even be researched yet.

I’ ve done some research on the different boats we had during this time.

I think the 3 classes should be:

KVIII
KXIV
O12

I can’t be sure of these classes are correct I go this from: http://www.dutchsubmarines.com/

OOB should be :

1x O12
2x KXIV
1x KVIII

And 1x O12 in construction.

This is one more sub then in O.80. I estimate that there were around 21/22 subs active in the end of 1935 and 1 or 2 under construction.

Well any comments?

 

[Ghost_dk]

Wouldn't the best way to "code" convoys be to open the game, create them, save, and copy the convoy from the save file?

Nope not so good. I tried that a long time ago when I was reworking some of the convoys and when it is a game created convoy it has a different type/id that causes CTD's when several have been created. At least that was my experience so while you can use this method for finding the province trace lines you should make sure to change to Type/id to something else.

Ghost_dk

 

[Ghost_dk]

On average 5 destroyers or submarines per flotilla. But that's not always the case, sometimes it can be 6 or 4

If you stumble across a class of destroyers which does not have enough to fit the 4-6 range or maybe a couple extra but not enought to make two units we allways have the option to add a 2 escorts to the nations file instead of wasting the ship.

Just a thought to keep in mind.

Ghost_dk

 

[MateDow]

New Cruiser Models

In response to some of the problems that there are in accurately recreating the OOBs of various nations, I have decided to add two more cruiser models to the game.

The first is the Treaty Sloop. These are sloops of more than 1500 tons with guns larger than 127mm (5 inch). This represents the classes of sloops that were built in response to the Washington Naval Treaty by Great Britain and the US.

The second is the Small Treaty Light Cruiser. These are light cruisers of less than 6000 tons armed with 152mm (6 inch) guns. This represents the small light cruisers that have been causing problems in the OOB creation process. These are the British Leander-class and Dutch Tromp-class cruisers.

I am reworking the OOBs in response to these changes. I am also adding the third class of passenger liners to recreate the small liners that were run by some of the countries along the Baltic and other smaller liners. MDow

 

[MateDow]

I do realise the problems you have making CORE as accurate as possible with the limited models. One of the reasons playing CORE is the naval improvements.

Thank you.

Regarding the Flores and Soemba. The class should be Flores Class. Or is the reason that it is called Kinsbergen because Kinsbergen was the latest model sloop the dutch had? Only they started construction on the Kinsbergen in 1937 and it was commisioned in august 1939.

You are right, that is the reason.

I think you should make it TROMP class. Although it is a fairly modern cruiser. But in my opinion having the Tromp and the java/sumatra as the same class of ship just does not feel right given the difference in real life. But Making it Tromp class would be somewhat of a downgrade.

Damn this is a tricky one. I think make it Tromp.

Do you have other models? And do you mean with that the images displayed in the game?

My plan is to make the new Small Treaty Light Cruiser the Tromp-class and make the Light Cruiser class the Java-class.

When I refer to images, it is entirely mental images. I use that phrase to make the point that the classes that are listed aren't necessarily the exact ship that is built. It could be the US South Dakota which would be IRL a South Dakota-class, but in the game is North Carolina-class. I think it still better to have the inaccuracy of the wrong class rather than just having it say "Treaty Battleship." That is what I mean when I talk about an image for the class. MDow

 

[Crazyhorse]

Thanks Mdow!

That's the capital ships done.

What do you think of the changes I suggested in the destroyer and submarines?

 

[MateDow]

Ok here I go again.

The German Raubvogel class destroyer has a range of 750 (km) in the game. While iirl it had a range of 1800 Miles at 17 knots.

Is this again an example from the limited models available?

Yes.

If yes then the following changes should be made to holland:

Van Galen Class should be called Admiralen I class

Tjerk Hiddes Class should be called Admiralen II class (As this was the second batch with some changes)

I have seen them as that, my references here refer to them by the lead ship's name. I think it is a little more interesting to have actual names than a type name. Of course, that is just my preference.

The next available class for the Netherlands would then be the Gerard Callenburgh class (large Destroyer tech?)

Gerard Callenburgh is a destroyer of the Tjerk Hiddes-class. I will have to look, but I believe that they are the 1500 ton destroyer design. That would make sense, they are 1600 ton destroyers.

OOB should be:

2x torpedoboat Z1
1x Admiralen I class
1x Admiralen II class

I’m going out of IIRL 4x Admiralen I and 4x Admiralen II destroyers and 9 other various ship.

The van Galen was a Admiralen II class ship and the Tjerk Hiddes was a Gerard Callenburg class destroyer (laid down end 1938).

To put this in CORE terms...
There are 8 destroyers of model 2 (Van Galen-class, 1000 ton destroyers)
There are 11 torpedo boats of less than 300 ton (model 0)

This translates into 2 units of model 2, and 2 units of model 0.

Submarines:

First an Error. The sub under construction is of the XIX class. Strange because this class can’t even be researched yet.

I’ ve done some research on the different boats we had during this time.

I think the 3 classes should be:

KVIII
KXIV
O12

I can’t be sure of these classes are correct I go this from: http://www.dutchsubmarines.com/

OOB should be :

1x O12
2x KXIV
1x KVIII

And 1x O12 in construction.

This is one more sub then in O.80. I estimate that there were around 21/22 subs active in the end of 1935 and 1 or 2 under construction.

Well any comments?

These are the models that are in the game right now...

MODEL-0	K VIII-class SS
MODEL-2	K XI-class SS
MODEL-3	K XIV-class SS
MODEL-5	O12-class SS
MODEL-6	K XIX-class SS
MODEL-7	O21-class SS

I can fix the class under construction. I don't understand when you say that you want to changes the classes, they match the classes in the game. I will look at changing the models for the Dutch OOB when I redo the OOBs for 0.81. When I have it finished I will drop you a note and you can double check it. MDow

 

[Crazyhorse]

Yes.
I have seen them as that, my references here refer to them by the lead ship's name. I think it is a little more interesting to have actual names than a type name. Of course, that is just my preference.

In this case I can agree because none of the ships carry the name. In that case the Admiralen I class should be called Evertsen Class as this was the first of this batch to be laid down.

And the Amiralen II should be Van Galen Class, which you already had in the game.

Gerard Callenburgh is a destroyer of the Tjerk Hiddes-class. I will have to look, but I believe that they are the 1500 ton destroyer design. That would make sense, they are 1600 ton destroyers.

Wrong, The class name is Gerard Callenburgh, and the ships names are: Isaac Sweers / Gerard Callenburgh / Tjerk Hiddes / Philips van Almonde. But again the Tjerk Hiddes was the first one which was laid down. Don't ask me why we always start builing another ship then the ship who gives it's name to the class.

Regarding the displacement 1628 tons / 2240 tons fully loaded. I thought that you could better make them the large destroyer class because of the limited models and we had no actual large destroyer class. And It's better to have a name then just Large destroyer class.

To put this in CORE terms...
There are 8 destroyers of model 2 (Van Galen-class, 1000 ton destroyers)
There are 11 torpedo boats of less than 300 ton (model 0)

This translates into 2 units of model 2, and 2 units of model 0.

The van Galen/Evertsen/admiralen (whatever we call it! )class we're of 1316 tons. Does that change anything?

These are the models that are in the game right now...

MODEL-0	K VIII-class SS
MODEL-2	K XI-class SS
MODEL-3	K XIV-class SS
MODEL-5	O12-class SS
MODEL-6	K XIX-class SS
MODEL-7	O21-class SS

I can fix the class under construction. I don't understand when you say that you want to changes the classes, they match the classes in the game.

I did some more research on the sub classes this afternoon and I'm going insane. Every site and book I see names it differently! :wacko:
The only class I did not find was the KXIX, maybe this should be the 019 class (First submarine class with the snorkel!!!)? BTW ever checked this site: http://uboat.net ? Also ships and classes of allied navies.

I will look at changing the models for the Dutch OOB when I redo the OOBs for 0.81. When I have it finished I will drop you a note and you can double check it. MDow

I would be honoured!

 

[Semi-Lobster]

In this case I can agree because none of the ships carry the name. In that case the Admiralen I class should be called Evertsen Class as this was the first of this batch to be laid down.

And the Amiralen II should be Van Galen Class, which you already had in the game.

The Admiralen I/Evertsen class is goruped together with Amiralen II/Van Galen class as 1500t destroyers

Wrong, The class name is Gerard Callenburgh, and the ships names are: Isaac Sweers / Gerard Callenburgh / Tjerk Hiddes / Philips van Almonde. But again the Tjerk Hiddes was the first one which was laid down. Don't ask me why we always start builing another ship then the ship who gives it's name to the class.

I agree, class names are sometimes confusing. I think MateDow chose Isaac Sweers class because it was the only one of her class to be completed.

Regarding the displacement 1628 tons / 2240 tons fully loaded. I thought that you could better make them the large destroyer class because of the limited models and we had no actual large destroyer class. And It's better to have a name then just Large destroyer class.

Sorry, 1628 t-2240 t isn't large enough to be called a large destroyer. A good example of a large destroyer is the huge 2,884 t-4,018 t French Mogador class

The van Galen/Evertsen/admiralen (whatever we call it! )class we're of 1316 tons. Does that change anything?

Not really, we average out a ships regular and full displacement and that would go under 1500 t destroyer.

I did some more research on the sub classes this afternoon and I'm going insane. Every site and book I see names it differently! :wacko:
The only class I did not find was the KXIX, maybe this should be the 019 class (First submarine class with the snorkel!!!)? BTW ever checked this site: http://uboat.net ? Also ships and classes of allied navies.

http://uboat.net is already a well know and useful source of info we use, too bad they don't have an Axis list of ships.

You're right, I can't find anything on a KXIX class sub and I agree that it should be changed to 019.

 

[Crazyhorse]

The Admiralen I/Evertsen class is goruped together with Amiralen II/Van Galen class as 1500t destroyers

I agree, class names are sometimes confusing. I think MateDow chose Isaac Sweers class because it was the only one of her class to be completed..

No, the Tjerk Hiddes class was chosen by Matedow.

Sorry, 1628 t-2240 t isn't large enough to be called a large destroyer. A good example of a large destroyer is the huge 2,884 t-4,018 t French Mogador class.

Ok, understood.

Not really, we average out a ships regular and full displacement and that would go under 1500 t destroyer.

Ok, is clear for me.

You're right, I can't find anything on a KXIX class sub and I agree that it should be changed to 019.

Ok, Thanks.

 

[Semi-Lobster]

No, the Tjerk Hiddes class was chosen by Matedow.

Woops, got some names mixed up!

 

[Semi-Lobster]

In response to some of the problems that there are in accurately recreating the OOBs of various nations, I have decided to add two more cruiser models to the game.

The first is the Treaty Sloop. These are sloops of more than 1500 tons with guns larger than 127mm (5 inch). This represents the classes of sloops that were built in response to the Washington Naval Treaty by Great Britain and the US.

The second is the Small Treaty Light Cruiser. These are light cruisers of less than 6000 tons armed with 152mm (6 inch) guns. This represents the small light cruisers that have been causing problems in the OOB creation process. These are the British Leander-class and Dutch Tromp-class cruisers.

I am reworking the OOBs in response to these changes. I am also adding the third class of passenger liners to recreate the small liners that were run by some of the countries along the Baltic and other smaller liners. MDow

I'll start compiling a list of ships that should be changed then right away MateDow!

 

[Crazyhorse]

Question.

Why does the dutch navy only have 1 transportsquadron?

I haven't done any research on this yet but I'm willing to.

It just seems to be a bit to low regarding the situation with colonial propertie and a large merchant fleet.

 

[Semi-Lobster]

Question.

Why does the dutch navy only have 1 transportsquadron?

I haven't done any research on this yet but I'm willing to.

It just seems to be a bit to low regarding the situation with colonial propertie and a large merchant fleet.

It does seem rather odd to have only one. I know the Gouvernementsmarine was incharge of things such as transports. Maybe if you did some research into you can help seeing as how I can speak Dutch.