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MateDow said:
They were purpose built, but they weren't built to warship standards. They are contemporaries of the US Oglala and she was sunk at Pearl Harbor (Harbour?) by a torpedo which stuck the cruiser alongside. Because of their wide open internal spaces for carrying mines, and their light construction, they had the damage resistance of large merchant vessels.
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Woops, I missed this post, well we discussed these ships already.

I think when they say battle ship that is the same as warship. If I remember my spanish correctly it might have been Barque de Guerra or ship of battle. Might be the explination. They did have the gunboat (sloop) Uruguay in 1936. They had a couple of 180 ton patrol boats that they built in 1935. They got rid of the cruiser Montevideo which had been the Italian protected cruiser Dogali of 2050 tons and 6 152mm (6 inch) guns. As for the training ship, I can only imagine that it is the presidential yacht 18 de Julio. Hope that helps. That is all of the information that I have on the Uruguayan Navy. MDow
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Did Uruguay built the patrol ships! This would be the first time I've ever heard of a South American nation building their own ships during this era. I know about the Dogali, she was scrapped back in 1914 so she won't be in the game. But the site mentions two training ships? I guess 1 MTB squadron should be added to their OOB.
 
mhitchens1963 said:
As I said, stemaing ahead to the battleships:

I’ve got a couple of issues with the classifications of the treaty and after battleships.

I know that probably overrates the Vanguard, but the other option is simply to drop one and leave post treaty blank for the UK.
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I've just been reading backwards through the conversation following a brief crack at 0.8 and have to say great work chaps. I agree with the classification of the Nelsons as KGVs for simplcities sake.

About Vanguard. She was only ever intended as a one off to make use of the improved 15" Guns and turrents left over after converting the Courageous class light battle cruisers, so I'd disagree with naming a game class after her.
I'd make the Fast Treaty Battleship the Lion Class, and given that the Lion design was revisited and changed substantially in 41-42 to relfect continuing wartime lessons. It's likely that this improved Lion design would have met the criteria for the Post Treaty Battleship design.

Also, just a wee nitpick I notice that light battlecruisers are available to research and the UK does not already have this tech in .80 when in fact they had designed and constructed two classes of light BCs during the Great War, the Courageous class with 4x 15"/42 and the Furious Class 2x 18"/40s. (all of which were converted into Aircraft Carriers) So I think they should be availible to construct from the get go. Also the UK did have the know how to produce 18" Guns and had built some and designed larger versions, only not continuing to do so due to Treaty restrictions.

mhitchens1963 said:
Super Battleships
Displacement
H class 55,453t
Yamato 63,000t

Speed
H class 30kts
Yamato 27kts

Armour
H class 11.75”-7” belt, 4.75”-4” deck, 15.25”-5” turrets
Yamato 16.1” belt, 9.1”-7.9” deck, 25.6”-7.6”

Armament
H class 8x16”
Yamato 9x18.1”

Not really comparable. As the Bismarck drops back to Fast treaty battleship, I’d drop the H class back to post treaty. It will fit much better with the Montanas. I’d use the H44 for the German super battleships.
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Out on a limb here I'd suggest the N3 Project as the basis for a British Super Battleship
The 1921 specs would have been

Displacement
48,500t

Speed
23.5 Kts

Armour
13.25-15in belt, 8in decks, 18in Turret faces

Realistically the displacement would have grown as the design progressed in part due to the need to provide substantial reinforcement to the superstructure because of the blast effects of the 18"/45 Guns (nb. the British 18"/45 were designed to fire a lighter common shell than the later Japanese 18"/45s but at a higher velocity) and as the main battlefleet speed had changed from 23kts to C28kts by the early 40s, more machinery would be needed to pump out the relevant HPs.

I've heard suggested the N3 class ships would have been called the St. George class, but I've also heard that of the G3 Design, but it would look better on my oob as a St.George Class BB than a Super Battleship BB. :)
 
Sounds interesting I think I heard something about them being called the St. George class as well but nothign substantiated so we'll probably end up giving them the project name like the Dutch, German and Japanese battleship projects.
 
Minelayer confusion

Once again my lack of Conway's is probably the source of my confusion but I was wondering about the Italian minelayer Lepanto which was stationed in the Italian treaty port of Tientsin. I've pretty much confirmed she was over 1200t and had several 102mm guns but another source says she was part of the Anzio class minelayers but they where only 615t. Their year of commission adds up (1927) but I have no idea which source is true. Can anyone explain this to me?
 
2 ships-same name

Semi-Lobster said:
Once again my lack of Conway's is probably the source of my confusion but I was wondering about the Italian minelayer Lepanto which was stationed in the Italian treaty port of Tientsin. I've pretty much confirmed she was over 1200t and had several 102mm guns but another source says she was part of the Anzio class minelayers but they where only 615t. Their year of commission adds up (1927) but I have no idea which source is true. Can anyone explain this to me?
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according to http://www.regiamarina.net/others/fareast/fareast_us.htm

The minelayer Lepanto was built in 1927. It had a displacement of 1,040 tons, a speed of 15 knots and was armed with two 120mm guns, 2 40mm machineguns and 80 depth charges

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

This site http://www.hazegray.org/mysteries/oldmyst/ansgrp06.htm
Talks about another ship of the same name

This is the Italian (former) battleship (ex-)Italia, hulked at Brindisi as floating battery, between 1915 and 1917. Italia was completed in 1885 as a rather unusual battleship. She originally had six funnels (3 forward and 3 aft), and a single central mast; her speed of about 18 knots was very high for the day. She could accommodate thousands of troops, making her somewhat of a cruiser-transport rather than a pure battleship. The arrangment of her main armament was equally unusual, as she had four guns in a large armored citadel, with no turret or other overhead protection at all. This was the era of giant guns, so she was fitted with 17 inch pieces; three 17"/26 caliber, and one 17"/27 caliber. In 1905-1908 she was modified to the form seen here, with the funnels reduced to four, and a pair of masts fitted.

Her near-sister Lepanto had four funnels from the start, but always carried one central mast; she had a uniform battery of four 17"/27 caliber guns.

Italia served in a variety of auxiliary roles after 1909; she was stricken in 1914 but continued in these duties, and was re-instated on the navy list in 1915. After several conversions and years in auxiliary roles, she was finally stricken in 1921 and subsequently scrapped. a drawing of this ship can be found here: http://www.gwpda.org/naval/pg000000.htm
 
Italian Navy OOB

Italian Navy June 1940

4 Battleship plus a further 4 fitting out
8 heavy cruiser
14 light cruiser
128 destroyer
62 motor torpedo boats
115 submarine

Personnel 4,180 officer 70,500 men rising to 190,000 through out the 1940-1942.

From June 1940 to September 1943 the Navy lost 24,660 men, 1 battleship and 13 cruisers with total losses of 339 ships.

Taranto command

2 Battleships
44 destroyer and torpedo-boats
22 submarines
16 motor torpedo-boats
2 minelayer
4 escort and patrol craft


Venice command
8 destroyer and torpedo-boats
4 submarines
16 motor torpedo-boats
1 escort and patrol craft


La Spezia command
21 destroyer and torpedo-boats
36 submarines
26 motor torpedo-boats
1 minelayer
3 escort and patrol craft

Naples command
4 cruisers
18 destroyer and torpedo-boats
11 submarines
6 motor torpedo-boats
3 minelayer
1 escort and patrol craft

Sicily command
24 destroyer and torpedo-boats
26 submarines
12 motor torpedo-boats
2 minelayer
3 escort and patrol craft

Dodecanese command
6 destroyer and torpedo-boats
8 submarines
20 motor torpedo-boats
1 minelayer

Red Sea command
9 destroyer and torpedo-boats
8 submarines
5 motor torpedo-boats
4 escort and patrol craft
The Red Sea command was destroyed in 1941

as found at: http://www.wolftree.freeserve.co.uk/Naval/Italianfleet.html
 
Der Bismarck said:
Italian Navy June 1940

4 Battleship plus a further 4 fitting out
8 heavy cruiser
14 light cruiser
128 destroyer
62 motor torpedo boats
115 submarine

Personnel 4,180 officer 70,500 men rising to 190,000 through out the 1940-1942.

From June 1940 to September 1943 the Navy lost 24,660 men, 1 battleship and 13 cruisers with total losses of 339 ships.

Taranto command

2 Battleships
44 destroyer and torpedo-boats
22 submarines
16 motor torpedo-boats
2 minelayer
4 escort and patrol craft


Venice command
8 destroyer and torpedo-boats
4 submarines
16 motor torpedo-boats
1 escort and patrol craft


La Spezia command
21 destroyer and torpedo-boats
36 submarines
26 motor torpedo-boats
1 minelayer
3 escort and patrol craft

Naples command
4 cruisers
18 destroyer and torpedo-boats
11 submarines
6 motor torpedo-boats
3 minelayer
1 escort and patrol craft

Sicily command
24 destroyer and torpedo-boats
26 submarines
12 motor torpedo-boats
2 minelayer
3 escort and patrol craft

Dodecanese command
6 destroyer and torpedo-boats
8 submarines
20 motor torpedo-boats
1 minelayer

Red Sea command
9 destroyer and torpedo-boats
8 submarines
5 motor torpedo-boats
4 escort and patrol craft
The Red Sea command was destroyed in 1941

as found at: http://www.wolftree.freeserve.co.uk/Naval/Italianfleet.html
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Didn't you already post the full Italian OOB? So find anything if the Lepanto had any sistership?
 
Der Bismarck said:
NTIAA

Ask nicely, please!
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:eek:o Sorry if I came of as rude before! I'm just kinda angry right now, that Colorado beat the Sharks as I have some money riding on the game! (I'm talking about the NHL play offs, what other sport would a Canadian be talking about? ;) )
 
Found this listing of overseas IT ships assignments:
http://www.regiamarina.it/obolmareng.htm

Ship (or Command) Commander

Albania Naval Command
• Naval Command Headquarters Adm. Tur
• AW PAGANO
• AM VIGILANTE
• AM VEDETTA
Aegean Sea Naval Command
• Naval Command Headquarters Adm. Biancheri
4th Destroyer Squadron
• DD FRANCESCO CRISPI
• DD QUINTINO SELLA
8th Torpedo-Boats Squadron
• DE LUPO
• DE LINCE
• DE LIRA
• DE LIBRA
3rd M.A.S. (Fast Torpedo Boat) Flottilla
• 15 x M.A.S.
5th Submarine Group
- 51st Squadron
• S NARVALO
• S SQUALO
• S TRICHECO
• S DELFINO
- 52nd Squadron
• S JALEA
• S IANTINA
• S AMETISTA
• S ZAFFIRO
Auxiliary Units
• CM LERO *
• CM LEGNANO
• PG SONZINI
• PG CABOTO
• AO CERERE
Italian East Africa Naval Command
• Naval Command Headquarters Adm. Balsamo
• Colonial Patrol Ship ERITREA
3rd Destroyer Squadron
• DD FRANCESCO NULLO
• DD NAZARIO SAURO
• DD CESARE BATTISTI
• DD DANIELE MANIN
5th Destroyer Squadron
• DD PANTERA
• DD TIGRE
• DD LEONE
Torpedo-Boats Detachment
• DE GIOVANNI ACERBI
• DE VINCENZO ORSINI
21st M.A.S. (Fast Torpedo Boat) Squadron
• 5 x M.A.S.
8th Submarine Group
- 81st Squadron
• S GUGLIELMOTTI
• S GALILEO FERRARIS
• S GALILEO GALILEI
• S LUIGI GALVANI
- 82nd Squadron
• S PERLA
• S MACALLE'
• S ARCHIMEDE
• S EVANGELISTA TORRICELLI
Auxiliary Units
• PG PORTO CORSINI
• PG BIGLIERI
• CM OSTIA
• AO NIOBE
• AW SILE
• AW SEBETO
• AW BACCHIGLIONE
Far East Naval Command
• Naval Command Headquarters Cdr. Galletti
• CM LEPANTO
• PG CARLOTTO
Lybia Naval Command
• Command Headquarters Adm. Brivonesi
• CA SAN GIORGIO +
1st Destroyer Squadron
• DD TURBINE
• DD AQUILONE
• DD EURO
• DD NEMBO
11th Torpedo-Boat Squadron
• DE CIGNO
• DE CASTORE
• DE CLIMENE
• DE CENTAURO
6th Submarine Group
- 61st Squadron
• S SIRENA
• S ARGONAUTA
• S FISALIA
• S SMERALDO
- 62nd Squadron
• S DIAMANTE
• S TOPAZIO
• S NEREIDE
• S GALATEA
• S LAFOLE
Auxiliary Units
• CM MONTE GARGANO *
• PG PALMAIOLA
• PG DE LUTTI
• PG GRAZIOLI LANTE
• PG GIOVANNI BERTA
• PG VALOROSO
• AW LINA CAMPANELLA *
• AW POLIFEMO *
• AW TICINO

* Requisitioned merchant ship for Military use.

+ CA San Giorgio, obsolete, was permantently moored in Tobruk's port and used as floating fortress and a.a. platform.



I will keep looking - Go Flyers!
 
Lepanto the last word!

Narritive of the Lepanto

http://www.geocities.com/dutcheastindies/shanghai.html

Picture of the lepanto
http://www.regiamarina.it/orienteng.htm

In both these articles, the Lepanto is listed as a "gunboat". As they seem to have been translated from Italian, I have no clue as to the original context of the author's comments. Perhaps someone who is fluent in Italian could help.

Anyway, this post:http://www.history-on-cdrom.com/id110.htm

seems to indicate that the Lepanto & the Gunboat Carlotto scuttled on 9 Sept 1943, and was resurrected by the japs to become the River Gunboat Okitsu. Here are the details on the Okitsu;

http://www.h5.dion.ne.jp/~yukikaze/Warships/Warship type list/Gunboat.htm

however my one semester of Japanese is insufficient to translate properly.

So, in sum; I believe that the Lepanto was a one off minelayer built by Italian shipbuilder Cantieri in 1927, I can find no evidence of others in her class. The Lepanto was sunk and ressurected as the gunboat Okitsu in the Japanese navy:

Stats as the Okitsu:
as per http://homepage2.nifty.com/nishidah/e/stc0661.htm

Displacement 615t normal
Length 62.18m pp, 66.0m oa
Width 8.69m
Draught 2.59m
Machinery 2-shaft recipro, 2 boilers, 1500ihp
Fuel oil 75t
Speed 14kt
Range 3500nm by 10kt
Armament 2-10cm/47cal gun, 1-8cm/40cal AA gun, 4 MGs, 80 mines
Complement 66

Stats for Lepanto posted previously
++++++++++++
So, if you wished to, you could have a event that represents the scuttling of the IT Far East fleet when Italy surrendered and te ships magically reappear in the IJN build queye. Apparently there were several other Allied ships which te Japs recycled.
 
Sorry it took so long to reply, the forum is very slow to the point of being completely unaccessable. Also, unfortunatly, stuff like removing ships is unimplementable currently. Anyway, the stats of the refloated Lepanto is near identical to this site http://warships.web4u.cz/lode.php?language=E&stat=ITA&typ=MNN&trida=Azio
which lists the Lepanto along with several other ships of the Anzio class (typo in the site, you can't blame the guy, english is his second language). Therefore I really confused about as to the true nature of this ship. Was she a 1,040 t minelayer armed with two 120mm guns or was she a 615 t minelayer armed with two 102mm guns?
 
Just from a gameplayer perspective, Gunboats and the likes are very annoying, they are generally worthless and lower your range to stuff like 100 or 300 miles. I generally send them on convoy duty, or if I have alot of them post them in some obscure location was a coastal defense unit.

I dunno, I just think having 6 Rusian MTB units or a bunch of minor vessels is annoying.
 
Faaip de Oiad said:
Just from a gameplayer perspective, Gunboats and the likes are very annoying, they are generally worthless and lower your range to stuff like 100 or 300 miles. I generally send them on convoy duty, or if I have alot of them post them in some obscure location was a coastal defense unit.

I dunno, I just think having 6 Rusian MTB units or a bunch of minor vessels is annoying.
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Well they are quite useless that's true. But CORE wants to make everything as correct as possible and if they were available then, then they will be availabe in CORE.

And that's also what i do with them, convoy duty, very cheap because they are already in the game and in my opinion only good for that.

It's off personal what everybody finds of it, but many people want as many different kinds of ships and they even love the low range MTB's. :)
 
Der Bismarck said:
I believe it should be 2x102 mm guns
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So the 615 t one is correct? All in all this is really confusing. I found a site in Italian about the Lepanto and it said it was 1,040 t. There couldn't have been too Lepanto's because all the sites I've read about it say it fell into Japanese hands.

As for gunboats, they're for historical accurarcy, for some, 500t destroyers are sm,all useless pieces of crap but to minor nations who have worked through all the basic naval tech, the 500t destroyer is a great achievement. I think your getting MTB's and 500t destroyer flotillas mixed up to. 500t destroyers are have a fairly decent range and are come in handy when sub hunting. THESE are usually the gunboats. MTB's on the other hand have a miniscule range. In general I think you're having trouble with smaller flotillas, seperate your ship flotillas like was historically done. (Most countries didn't being out MTB's out in the high seas of the Atlantic or Pacific to battle enemy fleets, ideally MTB's are most useful in hit-and-runs and smaller bodies of water, like the Mediterranean Sea)
 
I found an amazing site for small navies. It's about WWI but many of these ships where still used in WWI. Here it is. It can be useful for models and confirming ships. It also cleared up all the Uruguayian Navy questions I had.
 
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