Given the changes from 1.06, maybe we should revisit the convy_def efficiency ratings? Maybe MateDow can give some more insight..or Copper if he'a round as well...Ghost_dk said:
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Der Bismarck said:
This is probably a good idea. As we are talking about ships like the Atlantis and such.
Der Bismarck said:
There isn't a commerce raider unit per se. There is the auxiliary cruiser (heavily armed merchant ship). This ship isn't a commerce raider per se. If you play as Germany you will see Atlantis-class, but this is because their auxiliary cruisers were used entirely for commerce raiding. The British used their auxiliary cruisers for patrol work in the North Atlantic early in the war. Most nations built some sort of heavily armed merchant ships. The British used an auxiliary cruiser in the battleline at the Battle of Coronel. The Otranto was smart and fled before the German armored cruisers could catch her too. The gist of this is to say, no commerce warfare shouldn't be a pre-requisite. MDow
Epoe Nimistedt said:
It is down in the Naval Mod Thread.
The Iowa was commisioned 2 years and 8 months after being laid down. This is partially in wartime and partially in peacetime.
The Essex which was built partially in wartime and partially in peacetime was commissioned in 1 year and 8 months. The North Carolina-class battleships completed mostly before the war still took less than 3 years. The Missouri and Wisconsin which were completed entirely during the war took longer to build due to other priority work.
Neither of those vessels was built over the span of 3 or 4 years. The speed of construction of later Essex-class carriers during the war. They were still taking a little bit less than 2 years.
That is part of the point. If can have the first one in two years and the second one would probably be delayed. That is one of the trade offs that we have by not being able to stretch the construction time through event.
I think it's more realistic (in early game) to consider no more than 6/7 IC/day for 1400/1500 days to build a BB, and similarly for CVs (i.e. halved costs, doubled buildtime).
In the late part of games some advances (something new in industry tech tree) should give strong economies the chance to build at a higher daily cost (rising from 6/7 to 10/12 IC) but in less time (reduced from 1400/1500 to 900/1000 days or less).
This is to represent ability of produce the same total work in less time, given by experience in a certain industrial process. But the cost of such technology should by balanced so to be achieved only by a strong economy, as I said before (such as USA or a winning Germany).
I'm going to introduce this changes in my personal HoI mod, but I'd like to hear something about this idea from CORE community.
I think that with large warships (battleships and carriers) the time of construction doesn't decrease significantly during wartime. They are complex pieces of equipment. The construction time for cruisers did decrease significantly during the war as did construction time for destroyers.
I have suggested that we should raise the time for construction for large warships (they are a little too short). The decision was made to keep the time short to maintain balance of play. Naval warfare is more bloody in HoI than it was in reality. In every game I play, I can usually defeat the German navy within one month of the start of the war. I think the costs for construction are about right. I think the material and cost of labor between building battleships and infantry divisions is fairly close. Right now, in game those costs are fairly close (depending on the model of battleship). If we are going to change anything, it would be the time for completion.
I would be interested to here how your modifications work. Does the lower cost mean more battleships are built? Do you still have to agonize over the construction of a battleship or do you stick with cheaper cruisers? Let me know. MDow
Semi-Lobster said:
Carriers are priced right IC wise, they are probably a little cheap time wise. The same with battleships. The construction of a battleship should be an important stratigic decision. The largest economy in the world (United States) built 10 of them over the time period of the game and did a lot of work on two more. The next most productive country (England) built only 5 in the same time period. They were complex and expensive units.
I am not sure why you think that an armored cruiser is a better choice than a battleship. The worst battleship (coast defense battleship) has an attack of 8 and defense of 10 without any modifications for tech. The armored cruiser has ratings of 8 and 8 without modification. The battleship will get some better fire control techs over the course of the war with radar and directors. For just a little bit more you can build a pre-dreadnaught type battleship and get more firepower. MDow
JRaup said:
As far as I know, the convoy will always do some damage. This is hardcoded by Paradox. I am pretty sure that the defense efficiency reduces the damage done to the convoy not increases the damage to the attacker. I could be mistaken though. The nuts and bolts of the program aren't my strongpoint. MDow
In all other versions and without Core subs were a deadly weapon in HOI. But now you cant risk to sail far away from your next base. This low orga makes subs for raiding purpose almost useless.
I understand that the intentions was to reduce their strengh but IMO this was a bit to much.
I understand that the intentions was to reduce their strengh but IMO this was a bit to much.
Dragonheart said:
Submarines (except for US models) were fairly limited in combat radius. These ranges are fairly realistic. I can use medium range subs out to the mid-Atlantic if they are basic model. Long range submarines can spend limited amounts of time on the US coast.
Look at the difficulties that Germany had operating submarines off the US coast in 1941. They had to sacrifice torpedoes for fuel to get the range necessary. Later in the war, long range submarines were able to spend more time there.
Submarines historically spent most of the time looking for targets. They engaged less than 10% of all targets at sea. If you look at the numbers of submarines involved in the Battle of the Atlantic there were huge numbers of them. Germany built over 600 submarines. That is 120 units in CORE terms.
Submarines can still be an effective weapon in CORE. It will take numbers and improvements in tech. Use your submarines early before your opponent can develop anti-submarine techologies. They will still need some luck to make an effective attack on a group of warships, but that is fairly historical. MDow
Well here is my experiences with as the Italians, I decided to test something, in my Italy game, just to see if it was possible.
It's Winter 1939/1940. I have 4 main fleets.
1st Fleet - 12 Ships
2nd Fleet - 9 ships
3rd Fleet - 9 ships
4th Fleet - 9 ships
I have 3 Littorio Class BBs, 2 Super Dreadnought BBs (can't remember how to spell the class name), and 2 older BBs, as well as heavily upgraded destroyers, submarines (comparible to german subs in power, naval attack 10, etc), and lots of heavy Bolzano cruisers, they are the mainstay of my fleet, the backbone.
I decide to engage the Royal Navy head on, with everything I got, throw every fleet and numerous support forces at it intill I am, or it is destroyed.
The Germans have already had their go, as I can see their navy is now where to be seen. Lets see if I can put another dent in the RN.
First engagement happens between Campioni's 1a Naviglio[1st Fleet] and a large Aussie-British transport/destroyer/cruiser force. The Allies are slaughtered, I lose 1 Cadorna class light cruiser and they lose numerous destroyers and transports as well as a few solid british cruisers.
The second round of engagements is between me and the full might of the RN. Campioni and Denzi Amares' 1a and 3a Fleets engage the RN simultanously, they are cut down but the Brits suffer heavily as well. Out of the 11 and 9 ships that started, I have 4 and 4 respectively left. Then Iachino's 2a Naviglio engages a second powerful British-French force. Iachino's Italia BB routs the French and hammers the Hood down to the bottom, Iachino's force wins resoundly. Now I throw my supporting units into the fray. 6 Naval bomber squadrons, 7 sub flotillas and my Libia, Tyrennian and Ionian Squadrons hurl themselves at the various allied sea detachments. Results are iffy. my South Tyrennian and Libia squadrons run into Dutch and Aussie ships and both sides take ehavy losses. I manage to sink two British carriers although with ym naval bombers, a big blow to the brits. The Royal Sovreign also goes to the bottom when it gets ambushed by my subs.
The 2nd round of combat finds my naval bombers down to 4 flotillas and rebuilding, my subs annhilated and all three of my supporting squadrons destroyed. In about a month I have lost 2/3 of my navy, but I still have the newly combined GREAT FLEET under Campioni, remnants of my 1a, 2a and 3a Fleets and the untouched 4a Fleet. The 4a Fleet is strengthed by two new Abuzzi class cruisers and placed under da Zara's command. the 4a Fleet collides into a Dutch force of 12 ships which is re-enforced by 4 British BBs. The 4a Fleet is slaughtered, but the Dutch are nearly annhilated as well. Now the final round. As British troops overrun Libya due to my lack of attention, I wait intill March rebuilding my main fleet. My main fleet has all three Littorio class BBs, and an elder BB, as well as most of my heavy Bolzano cruisers. The leftovers of the 4a Fleet are added as well. This 20-25 odd ship force is sent to engage the RN. I hunt around the eastern med, beating up little british squadrons and using my naval bombers to raise general hell. I hope to lure the Brits into combat in the Aegean, where my naval bombers flying from Greece can be nearby for support. By god, those Brits come right at me with about 29 ships and boy is it a meat grinder. The Brits lose around 5 BBs, every destroyer, transport and about half their cruisers. I lose every ship.
My naval bombers which made several effective forays now attacks the British remnants, and sink a British carrier and damages a few ships. I use them to harass the British till they are almost annhilated. I throw my transports and their escorts at the Brits in around Sardinia, and manage to raise some hlel in British shipping lines, but Aussie-Dutch-French forces annhilate the remnants. I now don't have a single ship in my italian navy. And I have came to several conclusions about fighting the Royal Navy.
Point 1# - Land Based aircraft can be extremely effective to soften up fleets and beat them up after they finish off your ships, you can score some solid kills on weaken ships. Use them en masse with some escorts of Caproni Vizola F5s and your good.
Point 2# - A Well-Balanced Navy is Important. I've found a navy of nothing but BBs and heavy cruisers doesn't work too well. I found my fleets with more destroyer support did better, if anything they proved a buffer of damage for my larger ships. The light cruisers are also handy for quick sea passages to re-enforce the squadrons already engaged.
Point 3# - A Navy works Better at lower level organization. If you organize your fleet into more squadrons they tend to be able to maneuver and support themselves better. It can create a nightmare in organization, but using massive Fleets to sledgehammer your way forward gives you some heaevy stacking penalties, which can spell the end to your beloved BBs to some bloody British light cruisers.
Point 4# - Don't F*ck with the Royal Navy. There is a reason it dominated WWII, there is a reason why it is the most powerful navy in the world. I threw everything I had at it, and I only put a dent in its strength, although it was a pretty big dent. The Brits mainly were able to keep their strength up because for some reason they kept hurling Dutch, Norwegian, French and Aussie ships at me, they were cannonfodder and then their big babies, the carriers and BBs would come in and whip the floor with my ships. Just stay out of the water, its far too infested.
Point 5# - This is the best naval experience I've ever had. My brutal duel with the RN was great fun, although it lasted only about 2 months I saw my navy crushed under the weight of the RN and Inc. Those boys sure know what they were doing. The combination of air and sea forces provides much better results and smaller vessels can take on a life of their own. However, the naval war in CORE often forces you to push that little button called *pause* many times, to keep your chaotic naval way in some sort of organization. Your mod is hell on your nerves, but hell of a lot of fun.
Point 6# - I hate the RN. It can burn. The end. Damn Bloody Brits.
It's Winter 1939/1940. I have 4 main fleets.
1st Fleet - 12 Ships
2nd Fleet - 9 ships
3rd Fleet - 9 ships
4th Fleet - 9 ships
I have 3 Littorio Class BBs, 2 Super Dreadnought BBs (can't remember how to spell the class name), and 2 older BBs, as well as heavily upgraded destroyers, submarines (comparible to german subs in power, naval attack 10, etc), and lots of heavy Bolzano cruisers, they are the mainstay of my fleet, the backbone.
I decide to engage the Royal Navy head on, with everything I got, throw every fleet and numerous support forces at it intill I am, or it is destroyed.
The Germans have already had their go, as I can see their navy is now where to be seen. Lets see if I can put another dent in the RN.
First engagement happens between Campioni's 1a Naviglio[1st Fleet] and a large Aussie-British transport/destroyer/cruiser force. The Allies are slaughtered, I lose 1 Cadorna class light cruiser and they lose numerous destroyers and transports as well as a few solid british cruisers.
The second round of engagements is between me and the full might of the RN. Campioni and Denzi Amares' 1a and 3a Fleets engage the RN simultanously, they are cut down but the Brits suffer heavily as well. Out of the 11 and 9 ships that started, I have 4 and 4 respectively left. Then Iachino's 2a Naviglio engages a second powerful British-French force. Iachino's Italia BB routs the French and hammers the Hood down to the bottom, Iachino's force wins resoundly. Now I throw my supporting units into the fray. 6 Naval bomber squadrons, 7 sub flotillas and my Libia, Tyrennian and Ionian Squadrons hurl themselves at the various allied sea detachments. Results are iffy. my South Tyrennian and Libia squadrons run into Dutch and Aussie ships and both sides take ehavy losses. I manage to sink two British carriers although with ym naval bombers, a big blow to the brits. The Royal Sovreign also goes to the bottom when it gets ambushed by my subs.
The 2nd round of combat finds my naval bombers down to 4 flotillas and rebuilding, my subs annhilated and all three of my supporting squadrons destroyed. In about a month I have lost 2/3 of my navy, but I still have the newly combined GREAT FLEET under Campioni, remnants of my 1a, 2a and 3a Fleets and the untouched 4a Fleet. The 4a Fleet is strengthed by two new Abuzzi class cruisers and placed under da Zara's command. the 4a Fleet collides into a Dutch force of 12 ships which is re-enforced by 4 British BBs. The 4a Fleet is slaughtered, but the Dutch are nearly annhilated as well. Now the final round. As British troops overrun Libya due to my lack of attention, I wait intill March rebuilding my main fleet. My main fleet has all three Littorio class BBs, and an elder BB, as well as most of my heavy Bolzano cruisers. The leftovers of the 4a Fleet are added as well. This 20-25 odd ship force is sent to engage the RN. I hunt around the eastern med, beating up little british squadrons and using my naval bombers to raise general hell. I hope to lure the Brits into combat in the Aegean, where my naval bombers flying from Greece can be nearby for support. By god, those Brits come right at me with about 29 ships and boy is it a meat grinder. The Brits lose around 5 BBs, every destroyer, transport and about half their cruisers. I lose every ship.
My naval bombers which made several effective forays now attacks the British remnants, and sink a British carrier and damages a few ships. I use them to harass the British till they are almost annhilated. I throw my transports and their escorts at the Brits in around Sardinia, and manage to raise some hlel in British shipping lines, but Aussie-Dutch-French forces annhilate the remnants. I now don't have a single ship in my italian navy. And I have came to several conclusions about fighting the Royal Navy.
Point 1# - Land Based aircraft can be extremely effective to soften up fleets and beat them up after they finish off your ships, you can score some solid kills on weaken ships. Use them en masse with some escorts of Caproni Vizola F5s and your good.
Point 2# - A Well-Balanced Navy is Important. I've found a navy of nothing but BBs and heavy cruisers doesn't work too well. I found my fleets with more destroyer support did better, if anything they proved a buffer of damage for my larger ships. The light cruisers are also handy for quick sea passages to re-enforce the squadrons already engaged.
Point 3# - A Navy works Better at lower level organization. If you organize your fleet into more squadrons they tend to be able to maneuver and support themselves better. It can create a nightmare in organization, but using massive Fleets to sledgehammer your way forward gives you some heaevy stacking penalties, which can spell the end to your beloved BBs to some bloody British light cruisers.
Point 4# - Don't F*ck with the Royal Navy. There is a reason it dominated WWII, there is a reason why it is the most powerful navy in the world. I threw everything I had at it, and I only put a dent in its strength, although it was a pretty big dent. The Brits mainly were able to keep their strength up because for some reason they kept hurling Dutch, Norwegian, French and Aussie ships at me, they were cannonfodder and then their big babies, the carriers and BBs would come in and whip the floor with my ships. Just stay out of the water, its far too infested.
Point 5# - This is the best naval experience I've ever had. My brutal duel with the RN was great fun, although it lasted only about 2 months I saw my navy crushed under the weight of the RN and Inc. Those boys sure know what they were doing. The combination of air and sea forces provides much better results and smaller vessels can take on a life of their own. However, the naval war in CORE often forces you to push that little button called *pause* many times, to keep your chaotic naval way in some sort of organization. Your mod is hell on your nerves, but hell of a lot of fun.
Point 6# - I hate the RN. It can burn. The end. Damn Bloody Brits.
It's great you enjoy the naval game. Italy's a blast to play as. But after reading your account of your battle against the Brits did you remember about the severe naval penalty for having too many ships in a fleet (even with a Fleet admiral)?
That sounds quite good. I'm sure the results on the Regia Marina would've been pretty much the same as yours had they sailed out and engaged the RN like that. Maybe if you had done it at the same time as the germans one of you might have succeeded for a while, as the RN can't be everywhere.
When the Brits have 29 ships and you got 9, it doesn't matter if the penalty is -40% you still get slaughtered, I was facing him with equal numbers, both of us were way overstacking, lol.
Well that's why you got to play very with some strategy! I play as minor countries and I know what it's like when your backwards and small navy is outnubered!
I play as minor countries and I know what it's like when your backwards and small navy is outnubered!
I'm not an expert naval tactician I admit, but the goal of this was more to see if my Italians could fight the British on their own turf, with big bad heavies dominating the scene. It looks like I was wrong, and I knew I was before I started. But it was fun seeing that British navy lose 40-50 ships due to me.
Yah! Bloodying up the Brits is really satisfying! Well hopefully with your expierence you'll be prepared nex time!
Question
No matter what i do,how i form CV grooups,their escort units and their numbers it seems that AI is always targeting my CVs with guns which results in unhistorical and unwanted CV losses.I dont mind if they get attacked from airplanes and get to the bottom but from guns is outrageous.So if a make the naval defence of my CV 999 will this make impossible for surface units to hit them while they will still be able to blown up from air attacks?
Please answer it.
BTW i noticed that Cruisers with the right naval minister are cheaper from DDs(nuclear cruiser 5 IC,DD last class 6 IC).
No matter what i do,how i form CV grooups,their escort units and their numbers it seems that AI is always targeting my CVs with guns which results in unhistorical and unwanted CV losses.I dont mind if they get attacked from airplanes and get to the bottom but from guns is outrageous.So if a make the naval defence of my CV 999 will this make impossible for surface units to hit them while they will still be able to blown up from air attacks?
Please answer it.
BTW i noticed that Cruisers with the right naval minister are cheaper from DDs(nuclear cruiser 5 IC,DD last class 6 IC).
The ancient mar said:
I disagree. Carrier is still a warship and it is possible to sink it with a few salvos from Battleship. At least I think so
Jedrek41 said:I disagree. Carrier is still a warship and it is possible to sink it with a few salvos from Battleship. At least I think so
Well seems its difficult for you to understand the point of my question.So i dont mind if CV can be sunk by BB.OFCOURCE it can.THE POINT is that CV always stays of range of guns while on the same time sends airplanes to transform a nice BB into a future subwater relic for divers.Unfortunatelly this in HOI is impossible so since i dont like to see the stupid AI point guns against my CV while there are other ships to counter i am asking for a way to improve the situation.So i really need answer on that and not on obvious things like whether or not a BB can sink a CV.
In case it seems a bit rought the way i wrote it dont think of it as a personal offend.
The trick to playing the Italian navy is to cut the Brits off at Suez and Gibraltar and then annihilate whatever's caught in the Med. You can never beat the RN as Italy, but you can make the Med your private playground if you play it carfeully. Then just don't bother conquering anything with a coastline outside of the Med. (Yes, I let them have Eithiopia - big friggin' whoop)