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C.O.R.E HOI - Sweden, Dennmark, Finnland, Norway, Iceland

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DoctorPlague said:
I just saw a documentary about it. The movie with Kirk Douglas is does not picture the situation correctly, accoring to veterans who fought there.
This could mean an event for both England, Germany, and Norway. (both bombing raids and airdrop of british commandos and norwegian partisans, plus german manpower and tech loss) The british commandos came in sliders some time later than the norwegians... unfortunately they got lost in bad weather and crashed somwhere in the mountains. So the partisans had a hard job carrying out the mission.


This partisan raid near the village Rjukan set back both shipments and production of heavywater, crucial to the German nuclear programme. The plant was lightly guarded before the attack, but after the attack it was rebuilt... (don't remember how long it took, though) but the fact is the germans also lost a considerable shipment so the nuclear programme in Germany was set back. As a result, Hitler sent an additional 10.000 men to guard the plant afterwards, and to search for the partisans which they did not find. Allied bombing raids did not work well, as the plant was located in a steep valley.
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The main problem is how to model this in game. There is no way to deactivate a tech once it has been discovered, except by haiving a tech that negates any bonuses/penalties of the tech you want to negate. So if Germany has the "Heavy Water Plant" tech, there isn't a good way to off set it, with out opening up all sorts of problematic possibilities. The rest of it is fairly straight forward though.
 
I see. Perhaps a supply loss is better then... This valuable resource was very slow to produce... it came dripping down in small amounts. So IMO the supply value can be compared to reinforce a group of bombers. If Germany got that heavywater tech incl.South-Norway, it would trigger one for UK probably causing in a smaller MP loss for UK and a considerable supply loss for GER, plus MP for guards if they choose to send it.
 
Why Finland has a claim in USSR?

The "Great Finland" thinking bloomed a lot later(1944 after a book called "Der Ostfaget Finland" was released) and from my understaning "Great Finland" would have taken a lot more areas from USSR.

Also, there could be an event to end the continuation war as USSR annexes Finland wich is quite ahistorical. I could help you with the event but I can't code or anything.
 
I hope I'm asking this in the right thread, but how do you get the event to invade Denmark as Germany? I've seen it happen a couple of times when the AI was playing as the Germans. The Danish are puppeted and only get to keep their capital while the Germans take the rest.

I've never managed to actually get this event to trigger for me when I've been playing as the Germans, though. I get the Altmark event, and often Norway decides to join the Allies right away, but no matter how long I wait, I never seem to get the event that seizes Denmark for me. I've declared war on them and annexed them the conventional way, but then I miss out on a whole bunch of events involving the occupation (Danish torpedoboats, etc).

What makes the invasion event trigger? Perhaps it should trigger as soon as a state of war exists between Denmark and Germany, and they can choose to fight or surrender, because I think the game loses some of its charm if you're forced to plan your wars and invasions completely around some events that randomly trigger, as opposed to when it would be strategically most sound for you to do it. And for the record, it's spring of 1940 in my game, and I'd just like to secure the Scandinavian front before I send my forces into France and the Low Countries.
 
Danish Surrender & other possible events

I was doing some research to try and dig up numbers fo German occupation troops in Denmark (part of an idea for resistance vs Garrison level events I have been playing with). Almost all the web hits were about the initial invasion - seemingly the Danes Surrendered after 2 hrs to avoid air attacks on Copenhagen, etc.

As we now have a Belgian Surrender event, perhaps there should be some similar event for Denmark ? The historical option would be to effectively puppet Denmark, perhaps ceding Kolding to Germany ?

In 1943, when things got rather more stressed, the Germans took over the country and ran it as an occupied province - I guess this would need another event to end the puppet status, and just give Germany Control over all the Danish provinces, allowing them to annex if they wish. It shouldnt be date triggered, mind you - more triggered by Allied successes.

Denmarks prewar forces amount to (effectively) 1 division of Infantry, maybe a poor air unit, 2 coast defence ships (CAs, maybe), 1 new-ish destroyer unit, 1 old destroyer unit, and 2 modern-ish sub units. After the occupation by Germany, they still had an "Army" of c. 2000 men, and the Navy continued to patrol and do minesweeping, etc. The airforce was basically destroyed on the ground in the initial invasion. About 8000 volunteers served in the Waffen SS "FreiKorps Danemark" (about 50% died).

Any thoughts or comments from people regarding new events that might flow from this ? I know there are some events about the airport at Aarhus, and the torpedo boats, etc, but nothing on the surrender after 2 hrs, and I dont think you can puppet Denmark before you can annex it (due to its VP distribution ?)

Tim
 
HistoryMan said:
I was doing some research to try and dig up numbers fo German occupation troops in Denmark (part of an idea for resistance vs Garrison level events I have been playing with). Almost all the web hits were about the initial invasion - seemingly the Danes Surrendered after 2 hrs to avoid air attacks on Copenhagen, etc.

As we now have a Belgian Surrender event, perhaps there should be some similar event for Denmark ? The historical option would be to effectively puppet Denmark, perhaps ceding Kolding to Germany ?

In 1943, when things got rather more stressed, the Germans took over the country and ran it as an occupied province - I guess this would need another event to end the puppet status, and just give Germany Control over all the Danish provinces, allowing them to annex if they wish. It shouldnt be date triggered, mind you - more triggered by Allied successes.

Denmarks prewar forces amount to (effectively) 1 division of Infantry, maybe a poor air unit, 2 coast defence ships (CAs, maybe), 1 new-ish destroyer unit, 1 old destroyer unit, and 2 modern-ish sub units. After the occupation by Germany, they still had an "Army" of c. 2000 men, and the Navy continued to patrol and do minesweeping, etc. The airforce was basically destroyed on the ground in the initial invasion. About 8000 volunteers served in the Waffen SS "FreiKorps Danemark" (about 50% died).

Any thoughts or comments from people regarding new events that might flow from this ? I know there are some events about the airport at Aarhus, and the torpedo boats, etc, but nothing on the surrender after 2 hrs, and I dont think you can puppet Denmark before you can annex it (due to its VP distribution ?)

Tim
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The Danish occupation is already quite well covered by events. If Germany goes with preparations for war on denmark in the Altmark incident then Denmark will eventually become a German puppet but with a democratic government and Jutland will be handed over to German control. Several other events will also fire during the occupation.

Ghost_dk
 
Denmark

I realised at about 2 am this morning as I was tidying up my Core_Germany file prior to playing 0.83 that there are some events for some of these things - however, they only seem to trigger IF you go for Fall Weserubung. My understanding is that Denmark deliberately pursued a policy of trying not to upset Germany, hence why it didn't go for any major re-armament programmes, etc. Also, Denmark wasn't considered an "Allied" nation in WW2.

Givent he way that the Naval AI shoves the entire RN / French navy into the Baltic as soon as war breaks out, I find I have little choice but to attack Denmark on Sep 1st 1939 as well, rather than waiting for Weserubung.

What I was thinking, therefore, is some way of triggering some of the effects of Weserubung whenever Germany attacks Denmark, not just after the Altmark incident.

If Germany had a claim on Kolding, that would reduce the Dissent hit for DoW, I believe ? Then you could have some kind of event that checks the German troop levels on the border, and maybe in the sea zone, and if they are sufficiently strong (historically, it was 2 divisions plus attachments, I think), then Denmark surrenders pretty much immediately, then activating the Danish event chains. You should probably get a choice of Annexing Denmark too, I guess, and perhaps have some "King Christian Birthday" events (his reply to Hitler's telegram was used as an excuse to send in a Gauleiter) later on, to end the puppet status and revert it to direct military occupation by Germany.

Tim
 
HistoryMan said:
I realised at about 2 am this morning as I was tidying up my Core_Germany file prior to playing 0.83 that there are some events for some of these things - however, they only seem to trigger IF you go for Fall Weserubung. My understanding is that Denmark deliberately pursued a policy of trying not to upset Germany, hence why it didn't go for any major re-armament programmes, etc. Also, Denmark wasn't considered an "Allied" nation in WW2.

Givent he way that the Naval AI shoves the entire RN / French navy into the Baltic as soon as war breaks out, I find I have little choice but to attack Denmark on Sep 1st 1939 as well, rather than waiting for Weserubung.

What I was thinking, therefore, is some way of triggering some of the effects of Weserubung whenever Germany attacks Denmark, not just after the Altmark incident.

If Germany had a claim on Kolding, that would reduce the Dissent hit for DoW, I believe ? Then you could have some kind of event that checks the German troop levels on the border, and maybe in the sea zone, and if they are sufficiently strong (historically, it was 2 divisions plus attachments, I think), then Denmark surrenders pretty much immediately, then activating the Danish event chains. You should probably get a choice of Annexing Denmark too, I guess, and perhaps have some "King Christian Birthday" events (his reply to Hitler's telegram was used as an excuse to send in a Gauleiter) later on, to end the puppet status and revert it to direct military occupation by Germany.

Tim
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Yes it is correct that the event only trigger if you follow operation weserübung. This was done deliberately because the plan involved an ultimatum to the danish government, which is not the case in the event of a regular DoW. In such a case it would only be acceptable to the germans with a fascist puppet state, which of course would not happen with the blessing of the neither the sitting government or the people. Not wanting to upset the danish people more then necessary was the actual cause of going with the ultimatum in the first place. Therefore you could not use the same events for a fascist puppet. The Danish government remained in seat for more the 3 years after the invasion and only when the germans demanded that they hand over the danish navy to the germans did they abandon their policy of no obstruction to the occupation forces. It was also not until then that the Danish resistence came really into play. had the germans opted for a more direct control it is likely that the resistance would have come into play much earlier.

The kings birthday reply was only an excuse and the scuttling of the danish fleet on aug 29, 43 the real reason behind the stop in semi-co-operation between the governments.

giving the Germans claims on Kolding would be totally wrong since the whole border issue had been settled in a friendly public vote by members of residents in both schleswig and souther Jutland shortly after WW1. Neither government ever disputed this afterwards.
 
I understand about the events being linked to Weserubung - but it seems to me that the general policy of Denmark wasn't to attempt to fight Germany - in 1939 they called up most of hte reservists etc, but sent them all home again, since they didnt want to seem too provocative. From the sources I have read, the German Ambassador rang up the Danish Foreign Minister at 4 am or so, and basically said "surrender now, or we'll flatten you". The Danish Government surrendered within 2 hrs to avoid unnecesary bloodshed - given that there is no other mechanism to trigger an equivalent result except for DoW, I would expect this reaction/result to be muchly the same, whenever the Germans head northwards, essentially. As I recall, the Luftwaffe made about 10 squadrons of Bombers & 10 squadrons of fighters available for Weserubung - it was certianly partly the threat of air raids that persuaded the Danish Government to surrender so quickly, I believe. Perhaps any "trigger" tests could check for German airpower nearby ? (Is there even such a test possible ?)

On a related note, the Danish Navy doesnt seem to show up ? Does the Danish AI send it all off to Iceland or something ? I've several times got the "port occupied" symbol on Copenhagen, but never actually captured anything - the port occupied symbol still shows even after I have annexed Denmark as Germany.

Of course, what I'd really like as a "fix" for this problem is for the UK ai NOT to send all of the RN into the Baltic in early Sep 1939 ! Then I wouldn't have to worry about attacking Denmark early to secure the Sund, and coudl wait til Weserubung came along

Tim
 
Actually most of the danish units are destroyed right after the puppeting to avoid exp. forces which would be unhistorical. Some volunteers did join the wehrmach but this is handled through mp transfer in an event.

Unfortunately im not very much into the workings of the ai so I dont know how to limit the ai form sending the RN into the baltics.

your right that the danish decided to stand down but they also have a B option in the events to resist. This will to fight would probably have been greater had the Germans just decided to DoW intead of making the ultimatum.
 
Ghost_dk said:
Actually most of the danish units are destroyed right after the puppeting to avoid exp. forces which would be unhistorical. Some volunteers did join the wehrmach but this is handled through mp transfer in an event.

Unfortunately im not very much into the workings of the ai so I dont know how to limit the ai form sending the RN into the baltics.

your right that the danish decided to stand down but they also have a B option in the events to resist. This will to fight would probably have been greater had the Germans just decided to DoW intead of making the ultimatum.
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We could always add 1 VP in Iceland and could fight from there ;) Speaking of Iceland, Ghost_dk, do you know if Iceland produced any resources? If you find any info please post it in the World Resource thread, I've always wanted to play as Denmark :D
 
Semi-Lobster said:
We could always add 1 VP in Iceland and could fight from there ;) Speaking of Iceland, Ghost_dk, do you know if Iceland produced any resources? If you find any info please post it in the World Resource thread, I've always wanted to play as Denmark :D
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Actually I am a strong proponent of making Iceland an independent nation from 1944 because they declared their intention to become independent shortly after the german invasion and got it in 1944. Only some consider it a waste of time to create a country without resources. So if we do find some Im going to go ahead with the independence. It already has a TAG so its "just" ministers and leaders that need to be researched.

Ghost_dk

EDIT: I did some research and Iceland had no mining activities what so ever. Hydrothermic power production didn't start until the 50's and aluminum production not until the 80's.
 
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Semi-Lobster said:
I assume Greenland had nothing to? Oh well, Denmark doesn't even start with any manpower anyway so I can even build a TP to run away to Iceland on :D
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well Greenland only only just discovered Gold in the past few years but besides that its mostly fish and furs. they are not independent though so you could move there :) to do nothing for 7 years exept pray. :rofl:


Ghost_dk
 
lol. Even Denmark doesn't exactly have huge resources - although I did find a mention of some small oil deposits, but I dont know if they were in production that early. It's main resource seems to have been food, basically. Iceland also has food (fish) - and the Faeroes had a fair whaling industry (I seem to recall the British raided them in 1940 or so, and destroyed the fish oil tanks - at the time, it was a propaganda boost for the UK, filmed and all !)

Tim
 
HistoryMan said:
lol. Even Denmark doesn't exactly have huge resources - although I did find a mention of some small oil deposits, but I dont know if they were in production that early. It's main resource seems to have been food, basically. Iceland also has food (fish) - and the Faeroes had a fair whaling industry (I seem to recall the British raided them in 1940 or so, and destroyed the fish oil tanks - at the time, it was a propaganda boost for the UK, filmed and all !)

Tim
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I agree that Denmark doesn't have a lot of resources but Iceland had nothing at that time so If created in 44 they would have to be given some amount of resources to make it through the rest of the game and that would likely make them a even more inviting target for the Axis. That is the real trouble with granting them indepedence. They would not be able to field any units to protect themselves and may not even be able to produce enough CG to keep their population content.
 
Actually this is a problem with Spanish Morroco becoming independant, it has no way of getting any resources since it has none to power it's mighty 1 IC economy ;)

Also, I've been reading about Finland during WWII and found something very interesting, by January 1940, France and England where decided to send troops to Finland, planning to pass thrm through northern Norway. Of course though, by then it was too late.
 
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Semi-Lobster said:
Also, I've been reading about Finland during WWII and found something very interesting, by January 1940, France and England where decided to send troops to Finland, planning to pass thrm through northern Norway. Of course though, by then it was too late.
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This option is already included in the finish winter war events it the war goes on long enough. Norway and Sweden are reluctent to let them pass and get dragged into the war like that though.

Ghost_dk
 
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