C.O.R.E. : Technology tree - support, ideas, problems...

McNaughton · Oct 1, 2003

The problem that I see about changing the cost/time to the following:

360 Days, 15 IC (from 180 Days at 20 IC)

Is that it will cost more to research the gold techs than they ever did.

360 x 15 = 5400 IC spent
180 x 20 = 3600 IC spent

Those later techs, especially the ones that are 540 and 420 will be completely out of reach by the major nations with 100-200 total IC.

I think that the problem you might be encountering with the AI focussing too much is due to programmed tech tree researching by the AI. They are designed to research the tech tree with specific focus'.

Looking in their AI files you will see some things like this.

core_german.ai

electronics = 2.5
armor = 4.0
infantry = 4.5
industry = 4.0
rocket = 1.0
nuclear = 1.0
heavy_aircraft = 2.5
light_aircraft = 3.5
naval = 0.1
submarine = 1.0
artillery = 5.0
naval_doctrine = 0.1
land_doctrine = 4.0
air_doctrine = 3.5

The larger numbers mean higher priority, the lower numbers mean less priority. There is also a "preference = {" zone, that has specific tech paths that the AI will follow. As it is designed now, most nations will try to do a linear research program and try for the Gold techs over that of the applied tech due to programming.

The reason why the AI is probably still ahead in some, and behind in others, is due to the AI priorities. Try to modify the AI files for nations like Germany to have 1.0 accross the board, nations like Italy, with 1.0 in about 7 of the 14 techs, the rest 0.1.

----

In order to remain or become affordable, the techs must cost the following.

360 Days, 10 IC or less
420 Days, 8 IC or less
540 Days, 6 IC or less

Otherwize these techs will be too expensive for moderate IC nations.

McNaughton · Oct 1, 2003

Gold Tech Requirements

There are some 'solutions' to the problem about nations zipping through tech trees with cheaper gold techs (i.e., to have them being comparably inexpensive, yet not have them fly through one or two areas).

I think that there should be occasional 'stoppers' in the tech tree, to force those researching advanced tech to have some sort of a balance.

There are connector techs, that are currently independent, but can be directly connected to other technology.

Currently there are individual 'stoppers', like having AT Gun research to develop tanks specific tanks, electronic techs to get individual aircraft radar, etc. However, these are fairly limited and you have the choice of still researching aircraft and not having much radar research. If you want tanks, all you have to do is skip through the artillery research to just focus on AT guns, ignoring AA guns and Artillery.

---

Take "14200 # Self-Propelled Artillery"

As it stands now, the only requirement for it is:

14100 # Basic Artillery Pieces

Shouldn't you have some sort of tank research before you can create a SP artillery peice that requires the use of a tank chasis as an integral part of it?

14200 # Self-Propelled Artillery should have the following tech requirements

14100 # Basic Artillery Pieces
2400 # Improved Tanks or 2314 # Basic Medium Tank Prototype Tests

---

14500 # Self-Propelled Rocket Artillery

This tech should at least have 7200 # Improved Rocket Design before you should be able to research it.

---

I think that if we combine some Gold tech requirements, this will force nations that want things like advanced Artillery, Advanced Tanks, Advanced Aircraft, etc. to have other basic or improved techs researched before you can get it.

---

Other examples are:

Advanced Light aircraft Gold tech might require Basic/Improved Rocketry Gold tech.

Advanced Heavy aircraft Gold tech might require Basic/Improved Light Aircraft Gold tech.

Advanced Submarine Gold tech requires Basic/Improved Naval Gold tech.

Advanced Armour Gold tech might require Basic/Improved Artillery Gold tech.

Advanced Infantry Gold tech might require Basic/Improved Artillery Gold tech.

etc...

Early tech, up to improved, should not have many outside requirements (so you can research most basic and improved technology without having to have a substantially diverse tech program). This will stop nations from focussing in just a few tech areas to break ahead to advanced tech in a few areas.

McNaughton · Oct 1, 2003

Originally posted by Kevin Mc Carthy
IIRC MBT technologhy was really an early 1950's development. I like your ideas, but find some benchmark techs/units and tie them to historical development +/- some time. Some examples should be A-Bombs, V-2s, T-34/76, etc.

Basic Tech, should be completed by 1940
Basic SMG, Cruiser I, P-40 Warhawk

Improved Tech, should be completed by 1942
Improved SMG, M4 Shermans, Spitfire IX,

Advanced Tech, should be completed by 1944
Panther, etc...

Postwar Tech, should be completed by 1946
etc...

Future Tech, should be completed by 1948
MBT, etc...

These benchmarks are based on a nation starting at a basic level (i.e., ready to start researching Basic tech). Some nations start below this tech (i.e., haven't learned lessons from Great war yet!), while others are ahead (i.e., have some Basic tech in 1936). Even though Future Tech 'should' be researched by 1948, some nations will get it earlier (due to starting tech being fairly advanced, and getting some industry and computer bonus' that not every nation will have).

Using the current system, I can get nations like Italy to have Basic tech in about three of their tech areas by 1940, but cost problems result in them not being able to prepare for Improved tech in these areas (so no chance of Improved tech by 1942), and they are limited in the scope (they get, maybe, tanks, light aircraft and infantry techs).

I want to have a system where a nation with 100-200 IC can afford a research program where they can get 5-7 tech trees meeting the above schedule, but nations with 300+ IC could get 10-14 of the tech trees at the above schedule, but not focus on 5-7 techs that result in them with advanced tech well ahead of the above schedule.

McNaughton · Oct 1, 2003

War Doctrines

I was thinking about doctrines, and the problem that nations can research wartime doctrines without any war experience (i.e., they aren't at war).

How about that these doctrines (wartime experience) are only avalible through events?

For example, you can only get the techs through events (i.e., you cannot research them)

11200 # Early War Experience Analysis
12200 # Early War Experience Analysis
13200 # Early-War Experience Analysis

There will have to be events for every nation in CORE HoI, so when they enter the war (i.e., trigger { atwar = yes }), that give these techs to these nations (which don't give any immediate bonus', but allow for other research), allowing for the others to be researched normally. Possibly extra triggers are required, such as to check to see if Germany is at war, for most European nations, stopping them from getting techs (i.e., Italy getting access to these techs by their war in Ethiopia).

McNaughton · Oct 1, 2003

Originally posted by Szun

Summary:
I think cost of 5 is to low, AI doesnt care if its low or high it goes by what it needs, if it need applications it takes it in research slowing down the max tree .
So I would modify the cost up to 10 and researchtime to 360 or AI never get done with it befor the end of the game ('47)

Hope that is helpfull, playing brazil is kinda boring lol

Szun

I am working on some ratios, and believe that the most optimum modifications should be...

Time x2
Cost /2

I think that this should be a blanket change along all gold techs (doctrines are another matter). Try this, and see how it works. It may require some modified AI tech programs, becuase currently they are designed to shoot ahead in some aspects over others, while the new system will reward a balanced research tree.

unmerged(14683) · Oct 1, 2003

Originally posted by McNaughton
These benchmarks are based on a nation starting at a basic level (i.e., ready to start researching Basic tech). Some nations start below this tech (i.e., haven't learned lessons from Great war yet!), while others are ahead (i.e., have some Basic tech in 1936). Even though Future Tech 'should' be researched by 1948, some nations will get it earlier (due to starting tech being fairly advanced, and getting some industry and computer bonus' that not every nation will have).

A bit idealized, as only "human" countries will be so clever, to start next golden tech right after completing previous one. In case of the AI it will be delayed (delay depends on the number of techs on the level, ratio and preferences). We can test prefered list consisting of only gold techs - that will make this gap a bit smaller.

But 10 IC/360 days change seems ok to me.

Originally posted by McNaughton
I want to have a system where a nation with 100-200 IC can afford a research program where they can get 5-7 tech trees meeting the above schedule, but nations with 300+ IC could get 10-14 of the tech trees at the above schedule, but not focus on 5-7 techs that result in them with advanced tech well ahead of the above schedule.

For that we don't need many changes - we can simply make bigger modifier of the cost in research parameters in inc file. For now, only the nations below 100 IC got chaper R&D, and the change is not that big.

Szun · Oct 1, 2003

Originally posted by Copper Nicus
We can also add this from the inc file level, but it would mean that nice tech picture with crops and farmers won't be added...

just added the researchmodifier to it..its not a new tech...

Szun · Oct 1, 2003

Originally posted by Kevin Mc Carthy
IIRC MBT technologhy was really an early 1950's development. I like your ideas, but find some benchmark techs/units and tie them to historical development +/- some time. Some examples should be A-Bombs, V-2s, T-34/76, etc.

I did some increaseing time needed to a-bombs, I am no friend of those in the game anyway.
They would have never been used in a nowin situation by USA, for the same reason noone used chemical weapons.
So if US isnt 'the winner' or 'looking at total defeat' they wouldnt have used it in 45.
my changes to nukes:
20/300 for all golds
increased wastebomb and others to 360 days with the bombs need the lower one a prereq. putting them very late in the game.
I will check on that tree after I acctually played a game with the techtree, didnt start yet

oh and of course the main reason why US shouldnt have a a-bomb befor germany surrenders...
Without the U236 surendering 150 kg U-235 Uran to US , they never would have had the means to build 2 bombs anyway, US were short on Bomb-Uran and the germans tryied to ship this to japan but the german surrender forced them to drive into NY and give up. the 2 Japan officers acompanying the cargo killed themselfs.... (thx to Discoverychannel for that historical information)

p.s. pls forgive typos, I suck in typing ...

edit: a word to McN..
IS-3 tank was done pre '46 and was used in battles vs Germany but is considered 'Prewartank' 'edit: Postwar, not prewar

' (in russian Josef is spelled Iosef)
also the BF-109E was done pre '40 also, if I remember right it went into service after several testtypes (a,b, c etc) in 39.
The German 'Schmeisser' SMG was in use long befor 40 too.
But yes in general your table looks ok to me.

Halibutt · Oct 1, 2003

Originally posted by Copper Nicus
We can also add this from the inc file level, but it would mean that nice tech picture with crops and farmers won't be added...

A pic of Lepper on his tractor? Pretty pretty please with a sugar on the top!

Cheers

McNaughton · Oct 1, 2003

Proposed times

I mapped out all Gold techs, their cost in time and IC

Infantry, Light Aircraft, Heavy Aircraft, Artillery, Electrical and Naval Gold techs are ALL:

180 Days and 20 IC

I think we should change all of these too:

360 Days and 8 IC

*This is not quite as cheap as 5, but won't be so expensive to sway poorer nations away from researching.

---------

Industry has all Gold Techs:

200 Days and 22 IC

I think we should change all of these too:

360 Days and 12 IC

---------

Rocketry and Submarines are all:

180 Days and 25 IC

I think we should change all of these too:

360 Days and 11 IC

---------

Nuclear has all Gold Techs:

210 Days and 40 IC

I think we should change all of these too:

360 Days and 22 IC

---------

Doctrines (land, naval, air) are all:

300 Days and 40 IC

I don't know what these shold be, so currently unmodified.

---------

Armour is the only tech with variable Gold tech costs

Tech #'s 1-3, 6, 8 & 9 all cost:

180 Days and 20 IC

I think we should change all of these too:

360 Days and 8 IC

--

Tech #'s 4, 5, 7, 11 and 12 all cost:

350 Days and 20 IC

I think we should change all of these too:

360 Days and 18 IC

--

Tech # 10 costs:

200 Days and 20 IC

I think we should change all of these too:

360 Days and 10 IC

----

We don't have to worry about nations not being able to research everything, because:

#1. Many nations start in many of these techs at level 2 in 1936.

#2. Electronics techs will decrease time and cost of all techs.

#3. Industry techs will increase production capability of nations.

McNaughton · Oct 1, 2003

Modified tech files

Please back up all tech files. I did the above changes in these tech files (zipped with winzip). Install these into the core Tech area. I have all 'Gold' techs take 360 days, but at various costs to balance things out. Most techs cost 8 IC.

http://members.rogers.com/eprichard1704/TechMod01.zip

I would like some feedback on how this works by playing average nations, as well as the uber nations. Observe what the AI does, but if they should not perform well, this is probably due to how we designed the AI to research in the specific AI files based on optimization with the old system, and it is repairable.

The techs are 2x as long to research, and a little less than half the cost in IC. This should make them a little bit more affordable for lower IC nations, but not allow higher IC nations to take too much advantage over this.

I haven't done doctrines yet, as I think that we should have war doctrines avalible only if a nation is at war. This would slow down research during peacetime, as some of the Improved/Advanced tanks require Infantry war experience doctrines.

MateDow · Oct 1, 2003

Re: Proposed times

Originally posted by McNaughton
I mapped out all Gold techs, their cost in time and IC

Infantry, Light Aircraft, Heavy Aircraft, Artillery, Electrical and Naval Gold techs are ALL:

180 Days and 20 IC

I think we should change all of these too:

360 Days and 8 IC

*This is not quite as cheap as 5, but won't be so expensive to sway poorer nations away from researching.

The naval techs should have some sort of variable cost and time as well. If this is something that we decide that will be good, then I will come up with something that will blend in. I think the earlier techs should be cheaper because there are examples in the world already for a lot of them, and the techs themselves are the difficult. MDow

McNaughton · Oct 1, 2003

I think right now we should find a time/cost system that works, then concentrate on tweaking cheaper/easier techs.

I am going to revise the above mod to slightly increase cost of Gold techs.

The thing I have noticed about Gold techs, probably others noticed this too, is that nations only seem to trade the gold techs, which include all of the doctrines. This trading probably is the cause for the speed that the Commonwealth can get technology.

One thing that I noticed is that tech fields were filled out to a greater rate than they regularly are. For example, I noticed that nations actually researched some of the amphibous tank techs, because the time of Basic Tanks was incresed, but the cost of this tech was below that of what the AI wants to devote to tanks, it looks for avalible techs to research in armour, and finds only amphibous so it researches them. This is what I was looking to get the AI to do.

The problem of Germany is that they have too many resources devoted to too few technology areas. Aircraft are given very a very high focus by the AI, and since it takes so long to research Gold techs, they devote 40 IC for aircraft, it takes only 8 IC for the Gold Doctrine, but they are researching it for 360 days, this means that the other 32 IC are avalible for other aircraft research, which is why they have every aircraft type researched, and very little Industry, Electronics, Navy and other techs.

All that we have to do is to balance out tech research so nations will research a balanced program.

Nations like Italy benefit from this system, as while they are researching the Gold techs, they are not spending 20 IC, but 10 IC at a time, so they have 10 other IC to devote to some practical tech to get some immediate bonus' (like some Industry techs they really need, like reducing supply). It takes a bit of tweaking, but will end up being a very good system, from what I have seen so far.

Steel · Oct 1, 2003

Originally posted by McNaughton
The thing I have noticed about Gold techs, probably others noticed this too, is that nations only seem to trade the gold techs, which include all of the doctrines. This trading probably is the cause for the speed that the Commonwealth can get technology.

This applies to the Allies, not the Axis.

McNaughton · Oct 2, 2003

Verision 0.2

Here is the second revised version. I have slightly increased the cost of the techs. Each Gold tech takes 360 days, on average the cost is 10 IC, but some techs are more expensive. I still have yet to do anything about the doctrines.

http://members.rogers.com/eprichard1704/TechMod02.zip

I think that in order to experience the total benefits of this 'mod' we need to rebalance AI research priorities. Currently they are fairly sporadic and will result in over research in some areas.

Currently Germany's AI research priority is like this

electronics = 2.5
armor = 4.0
infantry = 4.5
industry = 4.0
rocket = 1.0
nuclear = 1.0
heavy_aircraft = 2.5
light_aircraft = 3.5
naval = 0.1
submarine = 1.0
artillery = 5.0
naval_doctrine = 0.1
land_doctrine = 4.0
air_doctrine = 3.5

As you can see, there is no wonder why they have so much research in Armour, Infantry, Industry, Light Aircraft, Artillery and Air and Land Doctrines, but very little in naval tech, sub tech, naval doctrines, rockes, nulcear or electronics.

If things were more balanced like this in the individual AI files, then I think we would see some better results and balanced research. Differences between priorites should be no larger than 1.0, instead of like in the example above, where some techs are 2.0 points higher than the average amounts.

electronics = 1.0
armor = 1.0
infantry = 1.0
industry = 1.0
rocket = 1.0
nuclear = 1.0
heavy_aircraft = 1.0
light_aircraft = 1.0
naval = 1.0
submarine = 1.0
artillery = 1.0
naval_doctrine = 1.0
land_doctrine = 1.0
air_doctrine = 1.0

Priorities will be slightly different for nations with less industry, as most nations will not have any tech devoted to nuclear or rockets, and landlocked nations don't need any naval, sub or naval doctrine tech.

It does look like this system helps things out, since everything will end up costing the same, but because you are spending less IC at a time, just for a longer period, you have more opportunity for spreading out research into other fields, as well as gaining practical tech while you are researching theoretical tech. After we tweak things out we can then worry about adjusting AI research priorities.

McNaughton · Oct 2, 2003

I have a question, is it possible to have a technology level to have a requirement?

I see only the following in the tech.txt files...

Code:

	level = { # 3 - Early War Experience Analysis
		id = 11200
		name = TECH_LEVEL_LAND_DOC_3_NAME 
		desc = TECH_LEVEL_LAND_DOC_3_DESC 
				
		cost = 40
		time = 300
		neg_offset = 75
		pos_offset = 150

I have noticed in other parts of the applied research that they have this function in the file...

Code:

		application = { # Political Control over Army
			id = 11507
			name = "Political Control over Army (SOV only)"
			desc = "Soviet Army was under constant control of communist party to prevent any possible coup attempts - commissars were put on every level in chain of command. In result, Red Army seriously lacked initiative since every decision of commander could be questioned by his political advisor."
			
			required = { }
			chance = 90
			cost = 1
			time = 8000
			neg_offset = 35
			pos_offset = 70

Is it possible to have the "required = { }" as a part of the tech level? I am curious, as if this is possible then we could make it that nations can only ever research war doctrines if their nation is at war (through an event like how the Soviets gain the second applied tech through an event).

I would like the first event to work like this...

Code:

	level = { # 3 - Early War Experience Analysis
		id = 11200
		name = TECH_LEVEL_LAND_DOC_3_NAME 
		desc = TECH_LEVEL_LAND_DOC_3_DESC 
		
		required = { }		
		cost = 40
		time = 300
		neg_offset = 75
		pos_offset = 150

Any thoughts or answers?

Szun · Oct 2, 2003

no its not I tryed it and got a error message

btw sorry for my absence I had and still have trouble with my main comp and getting online with it (this keyboard sucks)

I did made a test txtfile while testing and I was done 8 hours ago

Also I came to nearly the same conclution then U McN, and lowewred ic costs to 12, well similar but we both are on the same way.

I alos thought about doing docs very low cost , all gold 600 and most docs 360, so late war is acually in late war.
I typed my fingers 'bloody' with all my changes, only to see it wasnt really needed lol.

ok next post contains my test

Szun · Oct 2, 2003

Test with my techtree:
Playing Germany , Hard aggressive
Gold techs cost 16 instead of 15 (hardlvl modifications)
Industry 18 instead of 16

11th July '38 end of Spanish civil war

Techs at aug. '39
Germany:
Tankgun 70m
Tank: Basic medium 70s
Fighter: Basic Interceptor
Bombers: Basic dive, basic Tac, basic naval
Industry: Hydroforming done, Imp oil need 120days still, Poly (+5 % IC) done
Electronics: 2nd comp done, 3rd will need over 1 year
Infantry stats: 6 14 3 19 4 org:75
Units build: 15 PzIII 70s
total of 117 inf (inc. 30 +E)
18 subs (seaattack 5)
22 Basic interceptors

Note: Imp. tanks are researched, prototype will be done september '39, but any better Tankgun then 70m will need at least til 5/40 to be done researching.
That would put Imp Med. Tank 70 long to aprox 9/40 to be able to build.
I did not /could not research any Naval tech beside 1 lvl of subs.no Nukes either.

USA:
Cambat medical services done
Basic tanks done /best tank Infantry support tank, Basic medium prototype in research
Electronics: comp 1 done, frequency modulation needs 200 days to complete
Industry: Ass. Mass production done, apps in research
Naval: 1 below adv. shipbuilding
Subbs: Eq. trial and testing done
Arty: Self propelled arty done, tankgun 50 in research
Hvy Air: Basic tac, Basic str. done, Imp Bomber engines 120days to completion
Light air:Best fighter basic LR, imp LR engine done, Imp Aerodynamic design needs 200 days to complete
Landdoc: Early war military testing done, combined arms in research.
Air docs:no progress afaik
Naval docs:Early war naval testing needs 68 days to complete, Fleet supply done, Naval underway done, Sealine doc done (not sure if thats a starttech the others are not)

Brazil: build about 39 divisons in peacetime, 6 fighters too
Infantry tech, combat medical done, Frontline medical rdy for research
Land docs: 2 docs in research + gold, Tactical offense regime done
No other improvements
Infantry: 3 8 1 12 2 org 41

Italy:
Imp Inf weapons done
Basic tanks done, best tank basic light 20mm
1st comp done in 13 days, imp Battle field c3 in research,basic arty done, air no progress,Docs no progress,
Adv. ship building in research.

Infantry: 3 16 3 18 3 org:38

Hungary, beside 2 bomber engines in research and 2 naval apps done

, no progress notable

Note: UK had 1 lvl below Germany in land techs while 2 higher in naval and same in air (arcording to the Techbar ingame )

Summary: It looks like that aproach limits the player (good) but also the AI to much (not good)
Maybe a reduction in IC costs to 12 instead of 15 are better while at the same time reduceing cost for low lvl land-Docs, so Low IC countrys have it easier.(60 to 200 incl italy/brazil)
I dont see a reason to continue with that test atm.
The problem with the AI wont be changed much with lowering the Gold cost more tho.
I guess either the AI recieves a bonus for research (not much like 10% or so) or we got to reduce some application IC cocts as well, especially everything that cost over 10 like AIr prototypes etc.
Reduceing those applications some while inclreaseing thier researchtime wont hurt overall performance much, but gives the AI more free IC so it may researchs more golds then if would have normaly.

Szun · Oct 2, 2003

ok now my textfile with all my new changes incl the new doc costs...hope its not to long...

Szuns Techtree-change Documentation 1.0

Infantry Tech:
ID: 1000 Cost: 12 Time: 180
ID: 1100 Cost: 12 Time: 180
ID: 1200 Cost: 12 Time: 180
ID: 1205 Cost: 10 (was 12)
ID: 1206 Cost: 10
ID: 1207 Cost: 10
ID: 1208 Cost: 10
ID: 1300 Cost: 12 Time 360
ID: 1302 Cost: 8 (was 10)
ID: 1303 Cost: 8
ID: 1304 Cost: 10 (was 12)
ID: 1400 Cost: 12 Time: 360
ID: 1500 Cost: 12 Time: 360
ID: 1600 Cost: 12 Time: 360
ID: 1700 Cost: 15 Time: 360
ID: 1800 Cost: 15 Time: 360
ID: 1900 Cost: 15 Time: 360
ID: 1940 Cost: 15 Time: 360 (semi modern Inf. weapons)
ID: 1970 Cost: 15 Time: 360 (semi modern C3! )

Armor Tech:
ID: 2000 Cost: 12 Time: 180
ID: 2100 Cost: 12 Time: 180
ID: 2200 Cost: 12 Time: 300
ID: 2300 Cost: 12 Time: 450 (basic tanks)
ID: 2103 Cost: 10 (was 12) (Basic light Tank prototype)
ID: 2314 Cost: 10 (was 12) (Basic Medium Tank Prototype)
ID: 2400 Cost: 12 Time: 450 (Imp. Tanks)
ID: 2500 Cost: 12 Time: 360
ID: 2600 Cost: 15 Time: 480 (Adv. Tanks)
ID: 2700 Cost: 15 Time: 360
ID: 2800 Cost: 15 Time: 360
ID: 2900 Cost: 15 Time: 400 (Super Hvy)
ID: 2999 Cost: 15 Time: 480 (Postwar)
ID: 2970 Cost: 15 Time: 540 (MBT) note: Missing Prototype, should be added (delays tank by 150 to 180days more)

Electronic Tech
ID: 3000 Cost: 12 Time: 180
ID: 3100 Cost: 12 Time: 180
ID: 3200 Cost: 12 Time: 360
ID: 3300 Cost: 12 Time: 360
ID: 3400 Cost: 12 Time: 360
ID: 3500 Cost: 12 Time: 360
ID: 3600 Cost: 12 Time: 360
ID: 3700 Cost: 15 Time: 360 (infrared Tech)
ID: 3800 Cost: 15 Time: 360
ID: 3900 Cost: 15 Time: 360
ID: 3940 Cost: 15 Time: 360
ID: 3970 Cost: 15 Time: 360

Industry Tech
ID: 4000 Cost: 13 Time: 200
ID: 4100 Cost: 13 Time: 200
ID: 4200 Cost: 13 Time: 200
ID: 4300 Cost: 13 Time: 200
ID: 4400 Cost: 13 Time: 400
ID: 4500 Cost: 13 Time: 400
ID: 4600 Cost: 13 Time: 400
ID: 4700 Cost: 15 Time: 400
ID: 4800 Cost: 15 Time: 400
ID: 4900 Cost: 15 Time: 400
ID: 4940 Cost: 15 Time: 400
ID: 4970 Cost: 15 Time: 400

Submarine Tech (considering the power of early Subs I reconsidered researchtimes)
ID: 5000 Cost: 12 Time: 400
ID: 5100 Cost: 12 Time: 400
ID: 5200 Cost: 12 Time: 400
ID: 5300 Cost: 12 Time: 400
ID: 5400 Cost: 15 Time: 360
ID: 5500 Cost: 15 Time: 360
ID: 5600 Cost: 15 Time: 360
ID: 5700 Cost: 15 Time: 360
ID: 5800 Cost: 15 Time: 360
ID: 5900 Cost: 15 Time: 360
ID: 5940 Cost: 15 Time: 360
ID: 5970 Cost: 15 Time: 360

Naval Tech
ID: 6000 Cost: 12 Time: 180
ID: 6100 Cost: 12 Time: 180
ID: 6200 Cost: 10 Time: 360
ID: 6300 Cost: 10 Time: 360
ID: 6400 Cost: 12 Time: 360
ID: 6500 Cost: 12 TIme: 360
ID: 6600 Cost: 12 TIme: 360
ID: 6700 Cost: 12 TIme: 360
ID: 6800 Cost: 12 TIme: 360
ID: 6900 Cost: 12 TIme: 360
ID: 6970 Cost: 15 TIme: 360
ID: 6988 Cost: 15 TIme: 360

Rocketry Tech; from lvl 0 to 11 cost: 15 Time: 360

Nuclear Tech
ID: 8000 Cost: 20 Time 360
ID: 8100 Cost: 20 Time 360
ID: 8200 Cost: 20 Time 360
ID: 8300 Cost: 20 Time 360
ID: 8400 Cost: 20 Time 360
ID: 8500 Cost: 20 Time 360
ID: 8600 Cost: 20 Time 360
ID: 8700 Cost: 20 Time 360
ID: 8800 Cost: 20 Time 360
ID: 8900 Cost: 20 Time 360
ID: 8940 Cost: 20 Time 360
ID: 8970 Cost: 20 Time 360
ID: 8801 Cost: 25 Time 360 (Detonators)
ID: 8802 Cost: 25 Time 360 (Wastebomb)
ID: 8803 Cost: 30 Time 360 (Semi-Fission Bomb 235)
ID: 8901 Cost: 30 Time 360 (Fission Bomb 233)
ID: 8902 Cost: 30 Time 360 (Fission Bomb 239)
ID: 8941 Cost: 30 Time 360 (Tritium Bomb)

Heavy Aircraft
ID: 9000 Cost: 12 Time: 180
ID: 9100 Cost: 12 Time: 180
ID: 9200 Cost: 12 Time: 360
ID: 9300 Cost: 12 Time: 360
ID: 9400 Cost: 12 Time: 360
ID: 9500 Cost: 12 Time: 360
ID: 9600 Cost: 12 Time: 360
ID: 9700 Cost: 12 Time: 400
ID: 9800 Cost: 12 Time: 400
ID: 9900 Cost: 12 Time: 360
ID: 9940 Cost: 15 Time: 360
ID: 9970 Cost: 15 Time: 360

Light Aircraft
ID: 10000 Cost: 12 Time: 180
ID: 10100 Cost: 12 Time: 180
ID: 10200 Cost: 12 Time: 270
ID: 10300 Cost: 12 TIme: 360
ID: 10400 Cost: 12 TIme: 360
ID: 10500 Cost: 12 TIme: 360 ( plus prototype and actual plane, Imp will be in '42)
ID: 10600 Cost: 12 TIme: 180
ID: 10700 Cost: 12 TIme: 360
ID: 10800 Cost: 12 TIme: 360 (Adv. in '44)
ID: 10900 Cost: 15 Time: 360
ID: 10940 Cost: 15 TIme: 360
ID: 10970 Cost: 15 TIme: 360

Land Doctrine Tech (Doctrines are actually not researched, so I use a new aproach)
ID: 11000 Cost: 1 Time: 600
ID: 11001 Cost: 1 Time: 360
ID: 11002 Cost: 1 Time: 360
ID: 11003 Cost: 1 Time: 360
ID: 11100 Cost: 1 Time: 720
ID: 11101 Cost: 1 Time: 360
ID: 11102 Cost: 1 Time: 360
ID: 11103 Cost: 1 Time: 360
ID: 11504 Cost: 1 Time: 720 (Elite Unit doc/Ger)
ID: 11517 Cost: 1 Time: 720 (Elite Unit/ IT )
ID: 11104 Cost: 1 Time: 360
ID: 11200 Cost: 2 Time: 600
ID: 11505 Cost: 2 Time: 360
ID: 11515 Cost: 2 Time: 720 (IT army revamp, min time '42)
ID: 11201 Cost: 2 Time: 360
ID: 11202 Cost: 2 Time: 360
ID: 11203 Cost: 2 Time: 360
ID: 11204 Cost: 2 Time: 360
ID: 11205 Cost: 2 TIme: 360
ID: 11300 Cost: 3 Time: 600
ID: 11301 Cost: 3 Time: 360
ID: 11302 Cost: 3 Time: 360
ID: 11403 Cost: 3 Time: 360
ID: 11303 Cost: 3 Time: 360
ID: 11304 Cost: 3 Time: 360
ID: 11510 Cost: 3 Time: 360
ID: 11305 Cost: 3 Time: 360
ID: 11307 Cost: 3 Time: 360
ID: 11400 Cost: 4 Time: 600
ID: 11506 Cost: 4 Time: 360 ('44 Pattern, not sure if time is to short or not)
ID: 11401 Cost: 4 Time: 360
ID: 11402 Cost: 4 Time: 360
ID: 11404 Cost: 4 Time: 360
ID: 11405 Cost: 4 Time: 180 ( Obstacle crossing, not very importend )
ID: 11406 Cost: 4 Time: 360
ID: 11407 Cost: 4 Time: 360
ID: 11408 Cost: 4 Time: 360
ID: 11500 Cost: 5 Time: 600
ID: 11501 Cost: 5 Time: 360
ID: 11502 Cost: 5 Time: 360
ID: 11503 Cost: 5 Time: 360
Lets see how that works out...

post your thought about it.

edit of course I changed the other docs the same way but were to lazy to type 2 hours more

p.s. had no time to test this, will do so asap, and also McN 02 version.

Szun · Oct 2, 2003

one more thing I must say, I noticed I sometimes read a post and totaly missunderstand the meaning...so pls dont get mad if my answer is totaly out of context, I try to do better from now on

@McN
I saw today that some of my posts inspired U and others...woot..(missed it befor) I am glad to here or read, that some of my ideas are actually good

I also must add that I have sometimes wrong numbers in my head, if I quote out of memory, e.g. tankspeeds etc.
If I do that again just gime a /bonk and tell me to verify my post first

What I did look up again was penetration of tigergun and pathergun (look in my sig its all there) 75L70 had more then the 88L56, the SU 76.2L42.5 (I think that is correct but not 100% sure)
Had by far not the power of either.(www.achtungpanzer.com has a t34 penetration table to verify) also the 85 mm from the soviets wasnt as powerfuill, but I did not find the page I used to look at for the ww2 penetrationtables, its been a few years since I looked that up.
In gametirms I think the Imp med tank 70long must go and the advanced 70L should have higher HA then the 80 version.
up to discution tho.

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