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Excellent source for all aspects of metallurgy in regards to WWII armor. Discusses true reasons for sloped armor and many other things:

Metallurgy and Tanks


Szun, I want to apologize for my comment earlier. I had not read any of your previous comments; I was, in fact, just trying to reassure the group they were making good progress. I should have left it at that - the additional commenting was ill-advised and not thought out well.

No harm intended. Please keep up your input.

-PK
 
Originally posted by Phil K
Excellent source for all aspects of metallurgy in regards to WWII armor. Discusses true reasons for sloped armor and many other things:

Metallurgy and Tanks


Szun, I want to apologize for my comment earlier. I had not read any of your previous comments; I was, in fact, just trying to reassure the group they were making good progress. I should have left it at that - the additional commenting was ill-advised and not thought out well.

No harm intended. Please keep up your input.

-PK

This sort of gives me a good idea. We are all aware of certain techs that cancel out other techs, like tank types and certain doctrines, but how about having industry techs do the same? Reading that message board it is interesting to read the reasons why things were done, and their results. Possibly we could have an armour tech area, where you can make a choice between modes of producing your tanks.

Each of the types will have their strengths and weaknesses. One form of hull creation will be cheap, but result in a weaker defence, another will be faster to produce, but weaker defence values, and the other will be expensive and time consuming but result in high quality defence levels. This will let the player and AI customize their armour a bit more by selecting the mode of its development, resulting in cheaper, faster to produce, or high quality vehicles depending on their philosophy.
 
Yes U are right, a german tankdivison had 1 tankregiment 1 mech reg. and 2 mot regiments. more or less...
Even tho it would be autentical, to redo all techs is a pain to say the least.
Copper what do U think about it?:) (points at CopperNicus)
 
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So, more akin to infantry brigade+ tank regiment than infantry division + tank regiment?

All the bonus would have to be scaled, and I don't know if you can make fractional increments to the unit stats (or if it makes a difference). Anyone?

Besides, there's still the problem with the uber-armour.
 
Originally posted by Phil K
Excellent source for all aspects of metallurgy in regards to WWII armor. Discusses true reasons for sloped armor and many other things:

Metallurgy and Tanks


Szun, I want to apologize for my comment earlier. I had not read any of your previous comments; I was, in fact, just trying to reassure the group they were making good progress. I should have left it at that - the additional commenting was ill-advised and not thought out well.

No harm intended. Please keep up your input.

-PK

...allready forgot about it..:D dont worry

As for metalurgy and tank, there is also a page with Barrels/Ammunitions etc and penetrations.
e.g. Soviets did not use Balistic caped ammunition, therefor the facehardend steelarmor was most effective in shattering the projectile, vs the US/UK tank that was not true, since thy used balistic caps..etc. (pagename escapes me at the moment)

Problem is most likely that the AI couldnt handle desicions to go one path or the other, so keeping it simple is best imho
 
Originally posted by Gwalcmai
So, more akin to infantry brigade+ tank regiment than infantry division + tank regiment?

All the bonus would have to be scaled, and I don't know if you can make fractional increments to the unit stats (or if it makes a difference). Anyone?

Besides, there's still the problem with the uber-armour.

The best way to simulate infantry techs improving tank formations is to limit it to historic implementation.

Early on, just about every armoured formation was very heavy in tanks, and very light in infantry. Experience in Poland, France and North Africa showed the tank nations that heavy tank formations are vulnerable without sufficient infantry support.

Most units pre-war and up to about 1940 had a force composition of 2 Brigades/Regiments of tanks, and 1 Brigade/Regiment of Infantry (if that much, the British and French had, on average, just two batallions of attached infantry).

The Germans and French were the first ones to learn the lessons, the Germans learned theirs in Poland, and the French learned theirs fairly early (in the composition of the Infantry heavy Mechanized Divisions).

I think we could represent this by excluding all early/pre-war infantry technology from armoured formations, but have selective later infantry techs apply to armoured divisions. So, you wouldn't start seeing improvements to armoured divisions through Infantry tech until you start researching Improved Infantry Weapons, and even there since the volume of troops is about 50% that of an Infantry Division, we should only give techs that would be used in large quantities in a tank division (like SMG's, Recon Battalions, Mine Clearing Equipment, etc..., while things like Tube-Launched Rockets and Magnetic Mines would be used more often by pure infantry forces).

OR

We could add basic increases through doctrines. We could create armoured doctrines that require certain infantry tech to be researched, which then applies it to armoured formations.
 
Originally posted by Gwalcmai
So, more akin to infantry brigade+ tank regiment than infantry division + tank regiment?

All the bonus would have to be scaled, and I don't know if you can make fractional increments to the unit stats (or if it makes a difference). Anyone?

Besides, there's still the problem with the uber-armour.

if I understand u right, U are asking if the tankdivison had more infantry then a brigade?
Actualy , afaik, a tankdivison (German) was past '40 , as I said , 1 tankregiment and 3 infantry/mot or mech/ regiments
The Tankregiment had around 300 tanks (if the divison had no loses, wich was rarely the case)
I quote out om memroy here and if somebody has the right numbers pls leme know:)
Asumeing I am right, that would give the tankdivison a 1:3 ratio Armor vs Infantry, but I think we all agree that a tankbattalion has a lot more fightingpower then a Mot Infantry Battalion...
If somebody wants to rescale the bonuses so the infantrypart gets it share I wouldnt mind, but as I said, we talk about a major modification here...
Plus testing etc.

McN U type to fast:p hehe

I like the doctrine aproach better :)
 
Originally posted by McNaughton
This sort of gives me a good idea. We are all aware of certain techs that cancel out other techs, like tank types and certain doctrines, but how about having industry techs do the same? Reading that message board it is interesting to read the reasons why things were done, and their results. Possibly we could have an armour tech area, where you can make a choice between modes of producing your tanks.

Each of the types will have their strengths and weaknesses. One form of hull creation will be cheap, but result in a weaker defence, another will be faster to produce, but weaker defence values, and the other will be expensive and time consuming but result in high quality defence levels. This will let the player and AI customize their armour a bit more by selecting the mode of its development, resulting in cheaper, faster to produce, or high quality vehicles depending on their philosophy.

I am already using that approach in the new naval doctrines tree that I am developing. My idea was to make forces a little more customized to fit the players style of play. Some countries would have some of these traits at the beginning of the scenario (Germany with a "Protection Superiority Doctrine"), but most of these would be researchable by the player. Once you make a decision to establish a trait, you have to deal with the consequences. The only problems that I forsee, might be how the AI deals with it and how research sharing will work. It could be intersting if Italy shared "Speed Superiority Doctrine" with England or something like that. MDow
 
Production techs:

Seems like a good idea - I already suggested something like that for new air tech tree ("Shotened pilot training regime" doctrine vs "Complete pilot training") and in case of tank production technologies the best place for that will be Mass Production level. Any voluteers to script those techs? ;)

Panzer division /w infantry:

Yes, as the war experience was gained, most countries modified their tank divs to more mechanized/motorized structure, although in case of GER divisions it was also quest for numbers of panzer divs. ;) Compared to that, USA infantry division 1944' had more men, mechanized equipment, artillery and... tanks. On the other hand Soviets switched to whole different structure of tank brigade -> tank corps -> tank army...

What I'm trying to say, is that we simply can't reflect every nation concept of units organization. General idea of more infantry-like tank divs seems fine to me, but should it mean, that accordingly every new tank model should have lower stats (thanks to lower number of vehicles in units)? Or same stats as previous one? Tank divisions are now one of the most powerful units, but in the late war mechanized units are close to them in effectiveness (and are much more flexible).

In fact, in HoI mechanized units reflects late war tank divisions much better, then standard tank unit. But if we want to correct it, we should leave tank models and switch to "model = 0, pre-war tank division", "model 1, tank brigade", "model 2, tank division /w infantry support" (and so on...) system. Few pages earlier there is good attempt modelling it...
 
Originally posted by Szun
if I understand u right, U are asking if the tankdivison had more infantry then a brigade?

I meant that a tank division would be something like a tank regiment + little more than an infantry brigade, so the bonus it would get from an infantry tech would be around 1/3 to 1/2 of what the infantry division would get. Then I asked if anyone knew if you can use decimals for stat increases. And, supposing you can, if it makes any difference when playing.

But I also like the doctrine solution better.
 
Reading up on the effectiveness of tank formations, based on total power and such, it was determined that the most optimum formation was generally a 50:50 split between composing forces of armour and infantry. The 75:25 split (armour:infantry) was actually a substantially weaker formation than the 50:50 split, primarily because tanks were at a major disadvantage when attacking or defending without sufficient infantry support. This generally required other infantry formations from other units being attached to the tank units, or the tank units attached to them in ad-hoc formations (like the British formation during the Arras attack).

The early divisions did have more tanks, but they actually were weaker than those with balanced equipment. To represent this, early tank divisions should have powerful Hard Attack, but weaker Soft Attack and Defence (showing their relative ineffectiveness against infantry formations, especially if they have strong AT formations). Gradually the Hard Attack ratio should decrease, while the Soft Attack and Defense should increase.

---------------

(the following changes assume that no other techs to increase Hard Attack, Soft Attack or Defence are researched, but what tanks would look like in regards to doctrinal changes)

As an example, early tank divisions may look something like this:
PRE-WAR TANK HEAVY DIVISION (typical 2 Tank Regiment/Brigades, 1 weak Infantry Regiment/Brigade)
HA: 10
SA: 4
Def: 4

These divisions were generally ok as blitzkrieg divisions, but they were not very good in breaking through strong infantry formations. They have speed, and high anti-armour ability, but without sufficient Infantry support, they lack defensive abilities and are not able to attack strong formations, and could not hold against anything, since tanks were good targets without sufficient infantry support.

---------------

As tanks are taken away, and some infantry added, it would look something like this:
EARLY WAR EMERGENCY DIVISION (typical 1 Tank Regiment/Brigade, reinforced Infantry Regiment/Brigade)
HA: 8 (-2 points)
SA: 6 (+2 points)
Def: 6 (+2 points)

These divisions are basically 'panic' divisions. When it was realized that tank heavy formations resulted in severe attrition (because tanks were vulnerable from infantry) and actual weakness in battle, as seen by the destruction of many French Armoured Divisions, and the 1st Armoured in France, motorized infantry was reinforced, and tanks removed so that there would be an even balance between tank and infantry battalions. It was found that a tank division of 150 tanks was almost as effective as an armoured spearhead as a division of 300 tanks, but was actually a lot less clumsy and was capable of putting up a better defence.

---------------

Eventually, the tank formations will look something like this:
LATE WAR ARMOURED DIVISION (typical 1 Tank Regiment/Brigade, 2 Infantry Regiment/Brigades)
HA: 8 (+0 points)
SA: 8 (+2 points)
Def: 8 (+2 points)

The Germans and Allies found that in France and Russia the days of lightning warfare was over. War was still fast, but as infantry Anti-tank technology increased they became way more powerful. Larger infantry formations were required within Armoured divisions, since they became an antithesis of what they once were, from a unit that exploits a breakthrough to one that makes the breakthrough.
 
hmm... sounds familir somehow.
Maybe the aproach is a bit more refined to historical data concering Tankdivison deployment, but in general I came up with the same thing.
I was told ppl want to see what 'tank' the other side uses, but I think that info is not much more then a general lvl, I can have better stats with a PzIII with huge upgrades then a none upgraded Adv. tank.
So yes it would be a logical aproach if U ask me.
It also reduces the 'type' of tanks to 3 or 4, divisons.
That would also iradicate the ..'I build tank A and upgrade it to D with less cost' semiexploit. Also the tankettes wouldnt be so uber with upgrade techs anymore...
It also leaves room for 'Country specials' , not only for germany tho. US had Divisons with twice the number of tanks for example, mainly because they knew the tanks were to weak,but they had 2 tanks in reserve for every shoot down tank ...
All in All it would make more sense and that aproach would iradicate some major problems with the current system.
As lvl 0 tankdivison i had the french Infantry+tank battalion, moveing up from there. The french may have learned quick but befor they engaged the germans they deployed thier tanks along with Infantry divisons in smal numbers. So it would be the logical lvl 0 divison I think. The French were called the best Army in the world befor war broke out... so other nations most likely looked 'up' to them for 'advice'. (I have general knowledge of it, if others got detailed knowledge..even better)


Glad I had a 'good' idea and others come up with similar solutions :)
 
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I don't know if you can skip model numbers (having just models 1, 12, 25, 36 without the others). If you can, this would solve the sprite problem. People have always been saying they would want one sprite per tank model. There you go! Four models, four sprite levels. Problem solved! ;)
 
I personally would still like to see specialized tanks, it does add an interesting feel to the game, but would not like them to be quite so easily improved. The problem might be that there are too many extra advances, that give +1 here, +1 there... When you think about it, very little actually changed in warfare, and there was little you could do to improve tanks beyond a certain level. You can bolt on more armour, add applique armour, etc., but eventually you are going to have to design a new vehicle instead of relying on your patchwork tank.
 
Bergepanzer

On the 'Heavy Evacuation Vehicle', I would like to suggest something.

I believe there should be a few different effects from acquiring this technology than we currently have. It should reflect the economic impact of armor retrieval and not just combat impacts (which is what we currently have).

I would rather axe the AirDefense +1 bonus and incorporate an economic bonus such as a modifier to industrial efficiency = supplies or a cut in production time/cost. None of these directly reflect what the retrieval units did for the armored forces, but they will indirectly impact the economic benefit of having that technology.

Boosting industrial efficiency supplies could be reasoned as reflecting the lowered costs to maintain armored forces (since tanks are repaired, not just replaced). Lord knows that reinforcing an armored unit is completely devastating to a country's supply stockpile.

Production time/cost - not my favorite - would reflect in a very oblique way the benefit of repairing armored units.

Neither do I think this technology should be an upgrade at all. Bergepanzers (and their like) were modded units (either after recall or modded on end-of-production chassis - rarely the latter). Either way, they were sent out to the field. It didn't require the entire unit to come back for refit.

I just don't think the technology currently is reflecting the correct impact.

-PK
 
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Originally posted by McNaughton
I personally would still like to see specialized tanks, it does add an interesting feel to the game, but would not like them to be quite so easily improved. The problem might be that there are too many extra advances, that give +1 here, +1 there... When you think about it, very little actually changed in warfare, and there was little you could do to improve tanks beyond a certain level. You can bolt on more armour, add applique armour, etc., but eventually you are going to have to design a new vehicle instead of relying on your patchwork tank.

I also would like to keep the variety of tanks that we have in the game now. Would it work better if we look at what equipment it is that truely makes each tank unique other than the gun? If we know that certain tanks had diesel engines and some had sloped armor, those would be two different types of tanks. I don't think that there was really that much upgrading of a tank. There were better versions of a tank, but I don't think that they actually took the old tank and rebuilt it to the later model. If that is the case, most of the technological advances would be seen as requirements for the next model rather than an improvement to the current tank. MDow
 
Re: Bergepanzer

Originally posted by Phil K
Boosting industrial efficiency supplies could be reasoned as reflecting the lowered costs to maintain armored forces (since tanks are repaired, not just replaced). Lord knows that reinforcing an armored unit is completely devastating to a country's supply stockpile.


Hmm, so if USA shared this tech with China then they could suddenly produce 10% more supplies at no extra cost for their all-infantry army? Doesn't make sense to me.


Having a higher defence rating (including air defence) doesn't mean that a tank has better armor. It means that the integrity of the armor division is better, in this case because it can recover and repair vehicles at an improved rate. That does make sense to me.
 
Originally posted by MateDow
I also would like to keep the variety of tanks that we have in the game now. Would it work better if we look at what equipment it is that truely makes each tank unique other than the gun? If we know that certain tanks had diesel engines and some had sloped armor, those would be two different types of tanks. I don't think that there was really that much upgrading of a tank. There were better versions of a tank, but I don't think that they actually took the old tank and rebuilt it to the later model. If that is the case, most of the technological advances would be seen as requirements for the next model rather than an improvement to the current tank. MDow



Well, one web source states:

When the tanks would come back to the factory for overhauls they usually had the latest improvements in armor, engines, turrets, installed.

Suggest some additional research on the topic :)
 
Re: Re: Bergepanzer

Originally posted by Steel
Hmm, so if USA shared this tech with China then they could suddenly produce 10% more supplies at no extra cost for their all-infantry army? Doesn't make sense to me.


Having a higher defence rating (including air defence) doesn't mean that a tank has better armor. It means that the integrity of the armor division is better, in this case because it can recover and repair vehicles at an improved rate. That does make sense to me.

I see your point. It's more that the tech-share issue doesn't make sense. There indeed should be some type of economic impact in the game, but I see how it is being fashioned with unit integrity angle. Not optimal (I think there should be economic impacts), but that's not new given hardcode restrictions.

Thanks for the perspective.

-PK
 
Did a little more thinking on this, so let me ask this question:

Is it not true that a country given a tech via the tech share routine can only use the tech (benefits or ability to build) as long as the country also has the applicable theory level researched?

So in other words, if USA gave China the evac vehicle build - a level 6 application - China could only use this if it had the 6th theory level researched?