The Sultan thinks the Burgundian proposal is a good one to base a French settlement on. Since people seem to feel we need to edit stuff.
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I agree that we must all take responsability for placing a human player in BUR. It's not Forzaa's fault that it starts out as a superpower. But also remember there are balancing factors in the setup taht might sort out the situation.
Norrefeldt said:
And why do we need to edit stuff? BUR has some terrible times regarding rr ahead of her, isn't that true?
I'm not saying we shouldn't edit something but I want to know why we should?
juv95hrn said:
Burgundy start position is not stronger than French`s one. It is matter of player`s tactic only - anyone of them could win the field.
juv95hrn said:
Let's not make things look worse than they are
There is nothing terrible in RR in a couple of provinces. The worst effect of it is lower income. With a few rebell armies surely Burgundy will deal easy. I mean, now, 100 years before any revolt will appear, Burgundy has over 60 k standing army.
I propossed MINIMAL editing to ForzaA:
1) exchange Orleans for Nivernais
2) CB shields adjusted so that Burgundy has them on all her French provinces, while France doesn't have them on Burgundian French provinces
3) Burgundy doesn't go southern than it already is.
4) Burgundy kicks Brittany out of alliance when France says so.
So far Burgundy is not happy with the 4). Well, than she can annex France
and deal with the problem. There will be place for me in another country.
His Royal Highness the Archduke Friedrich Hapsburg wishes to make clear that:
1) There does not appear at this time to be any need to alter the status quo (ooc: make any editing changes to the save file), other than any changes to which Burgundy and France agree by way of formal treaty. Should those worthy neighbors agree upon a territorial division of the former Kingdom of the Franks, said agreement should be implemented at once.
2) The Archduke does not believe that France should be able to avoid some consequences of the decision to release as vassals several lands held by the French King. Those vassals should not be re-integrated into the actual Realm of France unless and until such time as they agree to re-unification with France. Otherwise, HRH the Archduke will insist upon immediate unification to his personal holdings all vassals he has in the lands of the HRE, which vassals he was forced to accept by the will of his brethren leaders of Europe.
3) There is no reason to borrow trouble at present from the future. If and when it becomes clear that some or all of the current holdings of the Burgundian Count desire an altered status, we can make decisions about individual provinces, etc. (OOC: obviously, though, it is only fair that Forza have some concept of what he will be playing come the mid-1500's )
1) There does not appear at this time to be any need to alter the status quo (ooc: make any editing changes to the save file), other than any changes to which Burgundy and France agree by way of formal treaty. Should those worthy neighbors agree upon a territorial division of the former Kingdom of the Franks, said agreement should be implemented at once.
2) The Archduke does not believe that France should be able to avoid some consequences of the decision to release as vassals several lands held by the French King. Those vassals should not be re-integrated into the actual Realm of France unless and until such time as they agree to re-unification with France. Otherwise, HRH the Archduke will insist upon immediate unification to his personal holdings all vassals he has in the lands of the HRE, which vassals he was forced to accept by the will of his brethren leaders of Europe.
3) There is no reason to borrow trouble at present from the future. If and when it becomes clear that some or all of the current holdings of the Burgundian Count desire an altered status, we can make decisions about individual provinces, etc. (OOC: obviously, though, it is only fair that Forza have some concept of what he will be playing come the mid-1500's
)
His Royal Highness the Archduke Friedrich Hapsburg said:
King of France agrees with the Archduke. The future should come it's way God wishes it to come. Not even Holstein-Bourbonais war should be influenced in some strange way (ooc: by edit), let all parties included in this mess find their own way out. King of France believes he has found a most interesting solution.
His Royal Highness the Archduke Friedrich Hapsburg said:
Again, King of France agrees with the Archduke
: everything should be left to the Gods wishes. As far as France is concerned, the similar solution as to the issue 1) is applicable here too and the King is in fact happy with it. The re-unification will this way be much cheaper .His Royal Highness the Archduke Friedrich Hapsburg said:3) There is no reason to borrow trouble at present from the future. If and when it becomes clear that some or all of the current holdings of the Burgundian Count desire an altered status, we can make decisions about individual provinces, etc. (OOC: obviously, though, it is only fair that Forza have some concept of what he will be playing come the mid-1500's
OOC:
Obwiously, it is up to ForzsA completely to decide what he wants to do with Burgundy. He can easy become Holland, not small 4-province one, but at least with all Lowlands provinces.
Or he can continue his conquests in south. Than, in my oppinion, he should be offered the chance to become France. But that possibility has to be decided soon, so he can decide what to do.
Most likely some of you saw this problem before we started. It was clear to me Burgundy could go only those two ways. Burgundy > Holland was my second choice and I clearly indicated that my way would be evolution of Burgundy into a bit stronger Holland. Never even passed my mind to try to expand south, even further into France. And I admit, never I expected this could happen to me
. My plan was to gradually leave France. Even Calais I intended to leave to France, so that England would have to watch the Channel, and Holland not.Anyway, it is completely up to Forzaa to chose which way to go. I only personally feel strange to have leaderless and eventless Burgundy instead of both France and Holland. So, I would suggest to declare Burgundy=France if Forzaa decides to go this path.
Tonioz said:
Well, here are some numbers
. First country is better:- army support limit: BUR=53, FRA=50
- manpower: BUR=18, FRA=16,3
- manpower/year: BUR=19, FRA=15
- leaders: BUR=3-3-1 till 1486 except 1463-1465, FRA=3-4-1 till 1456
- cavalry: FRA=23 k, BUR=15 k
- infantry: BUR=15 k, FRA=6 k
- positions of armies: BUR=1 in Lowlands, FRA=2- 1 in each part
- treasury: BUR=300, FRA=100
- inflation: BUR=0%, FRA=3%
- monthly income: BUR=25,1, FRA=24,4
- yearly 100% taxation: BUR=131,7, FRA=110,8
- yearly production: BUR=38,4, FRA=35,6
- fortifications (we couldn't assault, remember?): BUR=7 small, 4 madium(!), FRA=6 minimal(!), 7 small
In all but one cathegory Burgundy was better than France. I would say the most important were treasury, fortifications and location of armies, because France was already at war against Brittany (another 200 d 15 k cavalry and 5 k infantry).
I agree the result could have been different if France defeated Burgundian army. But how much different, without leaders till 1490, against Burgundian 3-3-1 leaders (3-4-1 after DP adjustments?)? After the defeat I assessed it was not possible to deffend France against the united power of Burgundy and Brittany and France was decentralised and should have laid low for some time.
It is now up to Burgundy to react as she feels she has to.
Adam Breit said:You Lads make a Descision !
Dearest Doge, it is not some "Lads" you are talking to, it's King of France and Duke of Burgundy
.It is up to Burgundy to basically dictate the terms, taking into account the enlightened Archdukes letter above, with which the King agrees (ooc: no editing, except something that concerns only our two countries).
Barnius said:Dearest Doge, it is not some "Lads" you are talking to, it's King of France and Duke of Burgundy
It is up to Burgundy to basically dictate the terms, taking into account the enlightened Archdukes letter above, with which the King agrees (ooc: no editing, except something that concerns only our two countries).
Offcourse !
(OOC: I just wanted to post my just taken picture
o )
Barnius said:
Locations of armies ? The war didn`t start with the first day ?
The missed info are morale and dp sliders, that influenced on costs of cavalry.
Well, for me stats of two countries are quite similar. Btw, both have 1 recruit per month, so manpower is same. Fortifications level means almost nothing, just the number of troops for total patroling. Important is battling only.
Barnius said:
And that`s why it is important to save the army, and plan only winning battles. For raising your economy you have wartax and looting the enemy. Well, i played something like 50 times in HYW, and you may trust me that most important is proper tactic, aimed for economical domination in these cases. I don`t see problem to win this war either for Burgundy or France. But the loosing is always capital unless sides come to general agreement before major battle.
Barnius said:
your leader at the time was better, AND you had more cavalry, so you were obviously far superior
ForzaA said:your leader at the time was better, AND you had more cavalry, so you were obviously far superior
Dearest Duke, King of France accepts his full responsibility for beeing avaricious when recruitment was the issue, for beeing benevolent towards enemy peasants when looting was the issue and above all for the incompetence on the battlefields.
However, after the defeat that all became irrelevant. There was no more any capable leader and none was expected soon, so King of France accepted Burgundian demmands. Lenient you say? Dear Duke, you directly took two manpower and tax very important provinces from France. You also annexed Orleans, which was practically French territory. Lanient you say? You could have hardly taken more!
(OOC: 3-province rule allowed you only one more province from France, and not counting ally Orelans is really dubious).As said already, all talks about who was stronger and who was weaker became irrelevant in 1458, when Burgundy completely surrounded French capital. France accepted Burgundian domination and acted accordingly.
It is now up to Burgundy to adjust her foreign policy. King of France is waiting Dukes decission.
This is the first mp thread I follow which has a narcistic GM...
Now I really have seen it all...
Now I really have seen it all...
FAL said:
Notice how Doges hair looks like
. I believe both Burgundy and France will be banned from Veneto COT at least for really annoying his Dogeship :rofl: .
Barnius said:Notice how Doges hair looks like
Yea, You got me all messed up !
(And I'm not a Narcist.
)
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Adam Breit said:Offcourse !
(OOC: I just wanted to post my just taken picture
May i suggest you to change your hairdresser ? :wacko:
patoche34 said:May i suggest you to change your hairdresser ? :wacko:
I need my moped 2 times a day, so whatever I do, My hair looks +- like that