Chill 1; Easy And Simple. (Normal and Relaxed players only, RP encouraged)

[ForzaA]

Interesting session-
Got dumped right into a war with France, killed Richemont (~40k Cav vs ~12k Cav on plains) and signed a lenient peacedeal (Caux and Champagne).
Then France made a surprising move which eventually led to a 7 province Brittany

then a few matters that need some attention IMHO.

1) the situation in France; it might be an idea to make BRI the new France (what to do to the old France I do not know) or some alternative (a 4 prov France and a 7 prov AI Brittany next to it might lead to a few painful incidents )

2) Dutch Revolts- despite success in France, it would, IMHO be too much damage to BUR to let her suffer through the Dutch revolts (8 out of 11 cores at ~20 RR)

3) Playing- I'd love to join this game as perm (for BUR, obviously ), and I *think* I can play for atleast 4 more weeks, after that I do not know (unknown schedule for now)

 

[ForzaA]

Or we could unite all of the French duchies into France once again (including Brittany) but that might ruin? the game.

Well, IMNSHO that would not be really fair to Burgundy, who valiantly [ ]defended her ally (Brittany).

 

[ForzaA]

just tossing in a suggestion: how about "all" the French duchies (excluding Lorraine, Strassbourg, Savoy) join "the French"(BUR and FRA) with FRA getting the SW and BUR getting the NE.

(with some French provinces surrendered to BUR) - making FRA viable is fine, but eh, not *too* viable (not to mention losing a 7prov ally is not nice )

That is ofcourse provided that Barnius wants a change..

 

[ForzaA]

Let's try it with as little editing as possible. If Burgudy accepts to remain where she is, leaving the rest of French lands to Kingdom of France to consolidate it in time, France will leave the issue of Paris beeing surrounded by Burgundy. Perhaps Burgundy could only allow MA...

If not, if Burgundy still has territorial pretensions, than France hopes someone will intervene against vile Burgundy.

I don't have plans to expand in France, certainly- but on the other hand, I will aid my allies (ie. if you want to gobble up Brittany that's your risk - Burgundy will defend herself and her allies)

RE: HOL/BUR; depends on how, ofcourse [in terms of DP's, cultures, that sort of things]

 

[ForzaA]

But anyway- I think there's two (semi-)major issues that need a resolution:

1]
the weakness of France (Barnius was too smart for his own good ) in comparison with Burgundy (well, basically in comparison with everyone, but eh )
This also leads to a somewhat more unfortunate side effect for me- despite very lenient terms in that war (I don't even know who started it... ) I/my alliance am/is seen as a danger to balance [England in particular is concerned ]

now, I see 3 ways out:
1) we leave it as is, and hope France somehow miraculously recovers (hopefully not requiring an orchestrated attack/gangbang on Burgundy)
2) Barnius moves to Brittany and we try to get him to become France as Brittany (meaning FRA would have to be annexed, and BRI owning Ile de France, before 1515) OR he could remain Brittany.
3) We do some bigtime editing (Annexing vasals, bit of province shuffling)

2] Burgundy-> Holland
several smaller issues here.
1) Dutch revolts would basically paralise Burgundy for some 80 years if they were to go "historical" or would see her lose a lot of land.
2) Burgundy has no scripted leaders(After 1486) or events(except Dutch revolts, see 1) ) whereas Holland does.
3) IF Burgundy is edited to become Holland, a carefull balancing act will have to take place so that it's not an über-Holland (ie. Trading/colonising "superpower" with a lot of MP aswell) nor a half-France (not being a real coloniser, but lacking the MP/taxes/leaders to become a continental player of importance)

 

[ForzaA]

Myself is in favor of editing all french vassals back to France.

One more minor "glitch"- I hate to give Barnius -20%tax to all of his provinces [due to no land connection] but on the other hand- I don't really feel like just giving up a province or two to give him a connection

 

[ForzaA]

A game will land on it's feet unless there is someone totally dominating the scene. Not really the case here..

It may- but it is VERY dubious at this time.

The wisest for me, at this time, would be to crush France and hope the backlash from other countries isn't too bad. (neighbouring the nation that has Turenne, Davout and many other such interesting characters, whilst half your country is their core and/or culture, is a BAD idea, esp. if the monarch already expresses an interest..)

RE: "revolts are nice" -- no it's not, it just means I get to do nothing but squish rebels for 80 years, OR give up the richest part of my country...

 

[ForzaA]

After all, for all we know, England, France, Spain and Venice may solve the problem by removing any significant Burgundian territorial gains.

I hardly took any provinces..... [how could I have known that that would be the straw that would break the camel's back Someone else must've burdened it too much, must be you! ]

 

[ForzaA]

i think the cot in paris should move south , simulating the frence concentrating in south more also don't see why frence would suddently don't trade in there own lands and trade in paris even tho its enemy occupyd , burgundy has flandern that will grow if paris moves south to

I think I should post the link to my proposal here too, for good measure (I did suggest a CoT move)


EDIT: here it is: http://www.slargos.se/forum/index.php?showtopic=433&view=findpost&p=3831

 

[ForzaA]

I am empowered to advise all of Western Europe of my Archduke's feelings with regard to the Burgundy and France situation:

1. Austria will not allow Burgundy to swallow France; we will willingly ally with England, Spain and France, and likely Denmark, to see that this does not happen.

2. France should be allowed to struggle to reconquer her natural lands. The Archduke would be plenty happy with a France that consists of the lands South and West of the Seine. A Burgundy which includes all lands between the Seine and the Rhine is acceptable.

3. When and If the lowlands people decide to revolt against the cruel overlordship of the Comte du Bourgogne, ideally there will have to be a choice between continuing play as the Comte, or switching play to the Staadtholder. After all, there is no reason not to allow Holland to form as expected; to reward the current player of Burgundy, there can be compensation, such as letting the Staadtholder take everything north of a certain point and then having the remaining provinces ramdomly decide (with decreasing degree of probability as you go south) to go with the Staadtholder or remain with the Burgundian dukedom.

After all, for all we know, England, France, Spain and Venice may solve the problem by removing any significant Burgundian territorial gains.

This sounds like an incredibly hostile (towards Burgundy) post, unfortunately


If you want a Burgundy that bends over to France and releases the Netherlands, let it be AI- it can handle doing that.
I have won ONE little war with France, that I didn't even start, and I'm already seen as "unerwunscht"

 

[ForzaA]

In all but one cathegory Burgundy was better than France. I would say the most important were treasury, fortifications and location of armies, because France was already at war against Brittany (another 200 d 15 k cavalry and 5 k infantry).

your leader at the time was better, AND you had more cavalry, so you were obviously far superior

 

[ForzaA]

aargh! wrote a big post, and then lost it because the forum logged me out!

 

[ForzaA]

On the subject now, have France and Burgundy made a descision ?

no...


facts:

• France started with 13 provinces, Burgundy with 11 (rel. 0.85).
• I am asked to sub.
• You ask me to sub Burgundy.
• Burgundy wins a war vs. France.
• France has 11 provinces, Burgundy 14 (rel. 1.27)
• Neither Burgundy, nor her allies attack France anymore.
• France now has 4 provinces, Burgundy still 14 (rel. 3.5)
• I am (more or less) offered a position as perm for Burgundy.

observations:

• People seem to want a strong (near-historical) France.
• People seem to want a Netherlands.
• People seem to expect Burgundy to bend over to France and give up ~1/2 her land AND/OR release >1/4 of her land voluntarily (more in income and MP) or have >1/2 with high RR for 80 years (~4 sessions, ~1 month).

now what I don't want is:

1. A coalition to help "poor, weak and underdeveloped" France get half of "evil" Burgundy's land.
2. A semi-permanent state of war with a strong/revitalised France until I have lost half of my land.
3. Releasing >1/4 of my land voluntarily, or have high RR in >1/2 of my land for 80 years.
4. Having to kill France to prevent points 1) and 2) only to face a coalition afterwards still. Not to mention that I don't like to kill player nations (well, except FAL's sometime).

now what I do want/would like:

• A viable 'France' and a viable 'Burgundy' that have different OPTIONS in how to interact (an alliance cannot really be justified when your ally holds half your cores, or when your ally claims half your land) Or only one country, but with a good alternative for the other player.
• Some clarity on what I can expect if I continue (the AI can handle being the punching bag, and if I want to be squishing rebels only I might aswell play SP)
• interesting events/leaders (a would like-and squishing rebels for 80 years is *not* interesting [sure, revolt events are fine, but paralising revolts for a long time are not, certainly not in MP])

 

[ForzaA]

Ok, All edits should be in tonight, I'm doing them tomorrow. (If its really urgent you can talk to me about it afterward ... but)

So far:

-Leaders.
-Cores on all Player nations for all Player nations.

could you answer your ICQ please?

 

[ForzaA]

Sadly, it appears there is no agreement reached between the frankish powers. Never could keep their own house in order, the Franks. Which is why true Germans will eventually establish dominance in Europe.

It's precisely because of German meddling that it hasn't been solved yet (and that Adam isn't as much on ICQ as I'd like )

But I think I'll be Holland afterall (depending on some details- DP's, cores, cultures, leaders [as HOL won't be getting spanish maps] )

 

[ForzaA]

I would hope that the numbers are based on max_mp (otherwise I'm sure the months before session end will see a DRAMATIC increase in recruitment)

EDIT: Please, Adam, could you get on ICQ or some other means of communication? pwetty pwease?

 

[ForzaA]

So it's OK to edit cores acccording to deals? It will make comebacks harder, if weak nations feel they need to lose a core to get by. If so I'd be interested in some French cores too Barnius. I'll pay you handsomely...

One can only wonder what French cores the Ottoman Empire would be interested in..

 

[ForzaA]

Because brand was AI last session i missed a lot of opportunity. Much of germany was vassald and meck was annexed. Id like at least the 3 slider changes i missed. +2 offensive +1 central.

hmm... I had only 24 years to do slider changes in not quite enough for 3 moves..

-----------------

quite a calm session for Flandern, can't say much more, really .

 

[ForzaA]

The most fresh is Burgundy-Flandern as good land power instead of naval Holland.

yet....

:rofl: Ha, there is some justice afterall! The good people of Dauphine decided to finnish the Royal Accademy in the memory of unification with France.
OOC: it appeared in the save

noooo!!!

 

[ForzaA]

We Won't play next week then ...

UNLESS, all players could play another day of the week ?

/ I can play any day.

I have no clue yet on what days (if any) I will have time o - so if a date looks good, just post it/ message me, and I'll see what I can do....