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On the subject now, have France and Burgundy made a descision ?, Venice is really annoyed by this indiscision.

We would like to see both nation flourish an prosper, rather then one under the iron arm. :(
 
Adam Breit said:
On the subject now, have France and Burgundy made a descision ?, Venice is really annoyed by this indiscision.

We would like to see both nation flourish an prosper, rather then one under the iron arm. :(
Click to expand...

What we would like and what we can accomplish are very often completely different things. King of France is a realistic person and understands the situation: Burgundy has an upper hand for the time beeing so she has to decide most of the events. It's only natural. (OOC: forcing something by out-of-game means on Burgundy would be wrong).
 
Barnius said:
What we would like and what we can accomplish are very often completely different things. King of France is a realistic person and understands the situation: Burgundy has an upper hand for the time beeing so she has to decide most of the events. It's only natural. (OOC: forcing something by out-of-game means on Burgundy would be wrong).
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I know. (OOC: Only edits where you 2 agree upon :) )


But we would still like a solution !
 
Adam Breit said:
On the subject now, have France and Burgundy made a descision ?
Click to expand...

no...


facts:

  • France started with 13 provinces, Burgundy with 11 (rel. 0.85).
  • I am asked to sub.
  • You ask me to sub Burgundy.
  • Burgundy wins a war vs. France.
  • France has 11 provinces, Burgundy 14 (rel. 1.27)
  • Neither Burgundy, nor her allies attack France anymore.
  • France now has 4 provinces, Burgundy still 14 (rel. 3.5)
  • I am (more or less) offered a position as perm for Burgundy.

observations:

  • People seem to want a strong (near-historical) France.
  • People seem to want a Netherlands.
  • People seem to expect Burgundy to bend over to France and give up ~1/2 her land AND/OR release >1/4 of her land voluntarily (more in income and MP) or have >1/2 with high RR for 80 years (~4 sessions, ~1 month).

now what I don't want is:

  1. A coalition to help "poor, weak and underdeveloped" France get half of "evil" Burgundy's land.
  2. A semi-permanent state of war with a strong/revitalised France until I have lost half of my land.
  3. Releasing >1/4 of my land voluntarily, or have high RR in >1/2 of my land for 80 years.
  4. Having to kill France to prevent points 1) and 2) only to face a coalition afterwards still. Not to mention that I don't like to kill player nations (well, except FAL's sometime).

now what I do want/would like:

  • A viable 'France' and a viable 'Burgundy' that have different OPTIONS in how to interact (an alliance cannot really be justified when your ally holds half your cores, or when your ally claims half your land) Or only one country, but with a good alternative for the other player.
  • Some clarity on what I can expect if I continue (the AI can handle being the punching bag, and if I want to be squishing rebels only I might aswell play SP)
  • interesting events/leaders (a would like-and squishing rebels for 80 years is *not* interesting [sure, revolt events are fine, but paralising revolts for a long time are not, certainly not in MP])
 
ForzaA said:
facts:
  • France started with 13 provinces, Burgundy with 11 (rel. 0.85).
  • I am asked to sub.
  • You ask me to sub Burgundy.
  • Burgundy wins a war vs. France.
  • France has 11 provinces, Burgundy 14 (rel. 1.27)
  • Neither Burgundy, nor her allies attack France anymore.
  • France now has 4 provinces, Burgundy still 14 (rel. 3.5)
  • I am (more or less) offered a position as perm for Burgundy.

observations:
  • People seem to want a strong (near-historical) France.
  • People seem to want a Netherlands.
  • People seem to expect Burgundy to bend over to France and give up ~1/2 her land AND/OR release >1/4 of her land voluntarily (more in income and MP) or have >1/2 with high RR for 80 years (~4 sessions, ~1 month).

ForzaA said:
I don't know who wants this? To me it seems most people want the game to go on as it is.
Click to expand...
now what I don't want is:
  1. A coalition to help "poor, weak and underdeveloped" France get half of "evil" Burgundy's land.
  2. A semi-permanent state of war with a strong/revitalised France until I have lost half of my land.
  3. Releasing >1/4 of my land voluntarily, or have high RR in >1/2 of my land for 80 years.
  4. Having to kill France to prevent points 1) and 2) only to face a coalition afterwards still. Not to mention that I don't like to kill player nations (well, except FAL's sometime).
now what I do want/would like:
  • A viable 'France' and a viable 'Burgundy' that have different OPTIONS in how to interact (an alliance cannot really be justified when your ally holds half your cores, or when your ally claims half your land) Or only one country, but with a good alternative for the other player.
  • Some clarity on what I can expect if I continue (the AI can handle being the punching bag, and if I want to be squishing rebels only I might aswell play SP)
  • interesting events/leaders (a would like-and squishing rebels for 80 years is *not* interesting [sure, revolt events are fine, but paralising revolts for a long time are not, certainly not in MP])
Click to expand...

RR, lack of leaders, new events are hard to fix since they are in the game. If BUR continues to exist these are problems they will face. I totally respect if Forzaa doesn't want to play a nation with these prospects and I'd love to have another competent player onboard but I'm sure there are plenty of other nations available if BUR isn't viable. Since this is a chill game I suggest that Forzaa plays BUR as long as he finds it amusing and when so no longer is the case he is offered an alternative nation. I see no reason whatsoever to reconstruct the games events, leaders and territory after the first session. If France is all gone, fine with me. If BUR splits up a bit late due to Forzaa taking over another nation, fine with me. I ask a third time why there must be edits (except for the allowed and agreed ones between BUR and FRA) that no one seems to want and no one seems to find neccessary? If I'm wrong I stand corrected but I'm still waiting for someone to give me a proper motivation why major edits should be done really?

Regarding Englands position. England lost the HYW to France but France more or less disintegrated to squabbling nobles, something England currently are suffering from as well. Burgundy emerged the major force in France, King but all in name. England is not willing to give up her last stronghold on the continent, seen as vital to the defence of the home isles but France won't yield her demads on it. Therefore some voices propose further involvment on the continent, to reraise ancient demands on the French throne, to achieve security from future French invasions etc. Some parties propose isolation and peace and concentration on trade. What will be Englands response to the events at hand.

I think the situation is interesting and very insecure but does that really matter? After all the fun with playing the 1453 scenario is that it might not always end up exactly as in 1492, something that looks probable here.
 
1: If Bur wants to not have those events it should either go reformed, or go 9 inno.

2: Random leaders are in the game

3: if you (forzaa) wants burgundy to change tag, I will change its tag.
 
Adam Breit said:
1: If Bur wants to not have those events it should either go reformed, or go 9 inno.

2: Random leaders are in the game

3: if you (forzaa) wants burgundy to change tag, I will change its tag.
Click to expand...

Nice, there are ingame solutions to the "problem" after all.
 
ForzaA said:
  • People seem to want a strong (near-historical) France.
  • People seem to want a Netherlands.
  • People seem to expect Burgundy to bend over to France and give up ~1/2 her land AND/OR release >1/4 of her land voluntarily (more in income and MP) or have >1/2 with high RR for 80 years (~4 sessions, ~1 month).

now what I don't want is:

  1. A coalition to help "poor, weak and underdeveloped" France get half of "evil" Burgundy's land.
  2. A semi-permanent state of war with a strong/revitalised France until I have lost half of my land.
  3. Releasing >1/4 of my land voluntarily, or have high RR in >1/2 of my land for 80 years.
  4. Having to kill France to prevent points 1) and 2) only to face a coalition afterwards still. Not to mention that I don't like to kill player nations (well, except FAL's sometime).

now what I do want/would like:

  • A viable 'France' and a viable 'Burgundy' that have different OPTIONS in how to interact (an alliance cannot really be justified when your ally holds half your cores, or when your ally claims half your land) Or only one country, but with a good alternative for the other player.
  • Some clarity on what I can expect if I continue (the AI can handle being the punching bag, and if I want to be squishing rebels only I might aswell play SP)
  • interesting events/leaders (a would like-and squishing rebels for 80 years is *not* interesting [sure, revolt events are fine, but paralising revolts for a long time are not, certainly not in MP])
Click to expand...
The debate has been much too diversified than what your first list "people seem to..." suggest. Only Austria have asked you to give up half your land for noting. I don't think we should start tampering with the events for Holland, or any other events or leaderfiles.
 
Norrefeldt said:
The debate has been much too diversified than what your first list "people seem to..." suggest. Only Austria have asked you to give up half your land for noting. I don't think we should start tampering with the events for Holland, or any other events or leaderfiles.
Click to expand...
Trust the heathens to slander a Christian ruler.

In what post has Austria suggested any such thing? :wacko:


OOC: I'm not certain why all this is such a big issue. Charles the Great's empire was split into a Western Frankish kingdom and an Eastern Frankish kingdom; there doesn't seem to be any reason that Burgundy can't occupy the latter position while France occupies the former. Up to France and Burgundy to work the borders out.

Austria has simply made it plain that it won't stand by idly and watch a super-Burgundy develop. That's called balance, folks; I can't imagine either England or Spain want to see it, either. Most of the period was spent in wars making certain such super-creations either never occurred, or, if they did, that they were broken-up.

If a player is unhappy that some other country wants to limit their expansion, this is not going to be a very "chill" game. :cool:
 
Ok, All edits should be in tonight, I'm doing them tomorrow. (If its really urgent you can talk to me about it afterward ... but)

So far:

-Leaders.
-Cores on all Player nations for all Player nations.
 
Adam Breit said:
Ok, All edits should be in tonight, I'm doing them tomorrow. (If its really urgent you can talk to me about it afterward ... but)

So far:

-Leaders.
-Cores on all Player nations for all Player nations.
Click to expand...

could you answer your ICQ please? :)
 
Sadly, it appears there is no agreement reached between the frankish powers. Never could keep their own house in order, the Franks. Which is why true Germans will eventually establish dominance in Europe. :p
 
DSYoungEsq said:
Sadly, it appears there is no agreement reached between the frankish powers. Never could keep their own house in order, the Franks. Which is why true Germans will eventually establish dominance in Europe. :p
Click to expand...


It's precisely because of German meddling that it hasn't been solved yet (and that Adam isn't as much on ICQ as I'd like :) )

But I think I'll be Holland afterall (depending on some details- DP's, cores, cultures, leaders [as HOL won't be getting spanish maps] )
 
DSYoungEsq said:
Sadly, it appears there is no agreement reached between the frankish powers. Never could keep their own house in order, the Franks. Which is why true Germans will eventually establish dominance in Europe. :p
Click to expand...

may i remind you at some point you germans where part of the frence country iirc and are technicle same people that just grew apart
 
I'm afraid I won't be able to play tonight :(
I caught some virus and my computer isn't working at all... i am typing from my office.
If i get lucky and succeed in cleaning it up in time, i'll be there but really i don't think so (as i'm not that keen on computer understanding) :eek: :(
 
Hehe, np, but if you could find a sub It would be nice.

Stupid ppl that make viruses :mad:

/Cursssse themzs.
 
Spain(65):
41 + 20 = 61
0.9
Ottomans(51)
16 + 27 = 43
0.8
Russia(50)
64 + 90 = 154
3.1
England(44):
3 + 3 = 6
0.1
Burgundy(73):
31 + 20 = 51
0.7
Denmark(30):
61 + 19 = 80
2.7
Poland(60):
40 + 15 = 55
0.9
Sweden(14):
35 + 35 = 70
5
Venice(55):
30 + 20 = 50
0.9
Portugal(10):
5 + 1 = 6
0.6
Austria(38):
35 + 38 = 73
1.9
France(21):
29 + 28 = 57
2.7
 
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