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Chill 1; Easy And Simple. (Normal and Relaxed players only, RP encouraged)

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Aladar said:
Sure i didn't foresee the English attack, ...it seemed so peacefull :p

All in all, i don't think i did too bad.
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...You are right, France doesn't remember England beeing particularly hostile towards Portugal... Must be, as indicated above, an act of pure and simple greed - PIRACY. Hopefully Iberians will from now on consider England as a world pirate and act accordingly.

...wrote French ambassador in Lisboa, grinning hapily while thinking:

"Well, English are not the only ones capable of sneaky diplomacy, that will be the punnishment for them forwarding Spain every word I said yesterday and happily making Spain suddenly incredible hostile towards France."
 
Look, no one reads such long posts ... Stop the insulting&non-healthy discussion here now.

Also, don't nag about the mapstealing, as I didn't trade in any cot and didn't colonize any provs. I wanted to do it by edit but TONIO wanted to do it now, so taking the capital was the only thing needed, I do not think this is that unfair or unreasonable because I will edit out my maps to prior sacking.
 
Adam Breit said:
Look, no one reads such long posts ... Stop the insulting&non-healthy discussion here now.

Also, don't nag about the mapstealing, as I didn't trade in any cot and didn't colonize any provs. I wanted to do it by edit but TONIO wanted to do it now, so taking the capital was the only thing needed, I do not think this is that unfair or unreasonable because I will edit out my maps to prior sacking.
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Well, it depends...
You can trade only 10 sea zones or 5 land zones (or some combination). Was it within those limits?
 
Barnius said:
Well, it depends...
You can trade only 10 sea zones or 5 land zones (or some combination). Was it within those limits?
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10 Provs, I guess it was quite within those limits ...
 
Adam Breit said:
10 Provs, I guess it was quite within those limits ...
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Even if it is, I still don't think you should have done it.

I haven't traded maps with anyone yet.. so that gives me 3(?) sessions I didn't trade maps, plus (maybe) this time, plus after next session, so I can happily take 50 provs I don't know by sacking a friendly capital?

And who knows.. Juv might have thought "never mind those provinces, noone else knows them anyway, I can always start next session with taking them" and then you prevent that by BENDING (if not breaking- if not the letter then certainly the spirit) the rules.

The problem of bending the rules is it creates a shady zone.. when is it allowed, and when is it not? This time it was very obvious it was planned as such by Spain and Venice, and that the English map conquest was a real war. - but what if I sack Paris? London? Copenhagen? When is it "gamey" and should it be edited, and when is it allowable?
 
Never allowed, unless you edit all other provs out exept the 10 max you took ... :) Don't think it is shady at all.
 
I agree with Forzaa.
The whole purposse of the rule was making exploration and colonisation difficoult. That's the spirit of the game, that's the intention of the rule.

IMO England bended the rule because she took Portuguese maps very easy, while the intention of the rule and the spirit of the game was making it hard. When England saw there was no opposition she should have warned announced her intentions clearly (if not even mush earlier, because such an operation can't be conducted against a friendly or neutral country, unless it is piracy, but how could pirates sack Lisbon :eek: ?).

To use this as an excuse to bend the rules one more time is bad. The tiny room for map exchange was left for BETWEEN SESSIONS exactly to be consistant with the spirit of the game: make it hard. You can sack capital(s) during the session... how many times? The rule explicitly says only 10 provinces TOTAL per country between sessions.

And I agree with the remark that England could have planned to take them later because noone else had maps anyway. In fact, that exactly this was the reason to bend the rules is what makes it double bad.

And now about how many could have been exchanged: 10 sea "provinces" (I assume zones) OR 5 "normal" provinces. I don't have the file here.
 
Tonioz said:
I played according the spirit of this game without trying to kill my neighbors, expanding in normal border (we saw a lot of Spain with more italian lands and even with Portugal lands) and not screwing the game.
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I can honestly say I have never seen a game with Spain holding more than the current holdings in Italy, and certainly not "and not screwing the game".

At this time, Spain can make or break virtually every war or turn it into a world war. If all wars have to be fought with (de facto) Spanish consent, I consider the game screwed.
We are not there yet, mind you, but we are close, and that is what I fear for, and attempt to work against.

And the map complaint was mostly against Adam, not Venice or Spain or Tonio.


Adam Breit said:
Never allowed, unless you edit all other provs out exept the 10 max you took ... :) Don't think it is shady at all.
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ah, can you give me a clear definition of a real war vs. a fake war then?
 
Just to talk about facts, no intention to poke my nose in internal Spanish affairs ;)

If the rule says 10 sea zones or 5 provinces can be exchanged, than Venice could have NOW, between sessions, received maps of 2 sea zones and 4 islands (provinces), which would enable her to DOW and take those 4 islands.

Venice somehow during the session got 9 islands.
 
To Spain's and Venice's defence there is no rule against volontary sacking of a capital. If indeed such should be the case there should be a rule in the first post about it. Otherwise I must conclude what they did was in fact totally legal. I don't see why a nation shouldn't be able to give away their maps if they wish to. Sure it kind of ruins the 10/5 edit map provs but that I thought was intended for less friendly nations that didn't deserve all maps.
 
ForzaA said:
I can honestly say I have never seen a game with Spain holding more than the current holdings in Italy, and certainly not "and not screwing the game".
At this time, Spain can make or break virtually every war or turn it into a world war. If all wars have to be fought with (de facto) Spanish consent, I consider the game screwed.
We are not there yet, mind you, but we are close, and that is what I fear for, and attempt to work against.
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Ah, come on! Spain is very powerful with all Italy but that doesn't mean the game is screwed. Spain has some rough times coming as we all know and I'm sure it will be a challenge to hold on to Italy. There is a very powerful OE to balance out Spain and France/England/Flanders have a certain power themselves, even if far from Spains. I think Spain would have lost it's last war if another power had interfered on Englands side. Maybe I'm wrong but if all it takes are two powers to make an impression on the superpower of the time it's not all that bad.
 
Barnius said:
Well, than there is easier way to do it in the game, and it's called map sharing :)
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You got a point.
 
Seen said:
I dont get a chill vibe lurking this thread, but maybe its just me :D
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Oh, it is chill, more chill than most of the games I participated. In fact, only my first MP ever, DEG campaign, was more chill IIRC and I think there are a few players here that were part of it.

Guys, do you remember our schedule? Was it Monday-Thursday, every week evening, slow speed… :)

Anyway, let's all except the ones that already used their bending-the-rules-bonus think of something we want edited in to our countres.
 
Barnius said:
Oh, it is chill, more chill than most of the games I participated. In fact, only my first MP ever, DEG campaign, was more chill IIRC and I think there are a few players here that were part of it.

Guys, do you remember our schedule? Was it Monday-Thursday, every week evening, slow speed… :)

Anyway, let's all except the ones that already used their bending-the-rules-bonus think of something we want edited in to our countres.
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DEG... :D
Very chilled, and with a very unstable version. 1.05 IIRC. Lots of time spent in rehosting.
 
ForzaA said:
I can honestly say I have never seen a game with Spain holding more than the current holdings in Italy
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I loaded randomly game with screenshots in MP stats and found out Bocaj`s Spain with Portugal, whole Italy (Veneto and Liguria) included and sure with all islands, that Venice have now. Temujin`s Spain owned whole Italy for almost whole game in Imperial Europe 3 as well. At least i could easily find two cases with much bigger Spain. I`m sure with more digging more samples would be found.

ForzaA said:
At this time, Spain can make or break virtually every war or turn it into a world war. If all wars have to be fought with (de facto) Spanish consent, I consider the game screwed.
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Spain was never offensive since kicking Venice from Spanish land almost 100 years ago. Well, looks like you think that any strong nation screws the game even without the action. I wonder why you don`t notice OE with huge income & manpower. You have to tell in each game that OE screws the game with their biggest manpower.

Well, i can`t persuade every guy with rich imagination. Forzaa, if you sold your country instead of being strong without any challenge, that doesn`t mean i should follow you. Specially funny you gave your lands to worse fighter than you.

ForzaA said:
And the map complaint was mostly against Adam, not Venice or Spain or Tonio.
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Why does everybody think he can issue own opinion on the Spanish actions if that is done according rules ? It is annoying bitching and nothing more.

ForzaA said:
ah, can you give me a clear definition of a real war vs. a fake war then?
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Indeed, really, answer me another question. Give me clear definition what is allowed and not allowed in fake war ? If rules doesn`t mind. Or we should always listen to the opinion of the club, who think they always have right on opinion against rules, and who think their opinion is always right and over the rules.


As to stats, sorry, i came today home, run computer&immediatly went to eat, then took Guderian book in bed, then got up, turned off computer and went to sleep :)
Thanks for Barnius for making stats. I didn`t have savefile at work.

Juv, as i told, i hardly think that France would be able to hit me during our war :) They would go down economically and i had 100K in Iberia and Italy without actions. The difference is that France could kick Spanish troops at the island. But i believe Spanish troops would visit it later anyway - though Calais-Roussilion strait :D though i could accept stabhit before as well :rofl:

Anyway we all know now that France planned aggression vs Spain, while Spain was very peaceful to France for a long time and restrained to use it`s force vs France.
 
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