Cold War Tech Tree Extension Project

[Lt Hilsdorf]

Few more slight bugs or issues (I think):

-Japan has a ridiculous amount of IC, around 200 or so. Is this intentional? Tokyo alone has 22 IC points upon liberation in 1947.

-When Japan was freed I, as commie china, received an event saying something about retaking the countryside of China when Japan surrendered, creating militia in northern China. I would assume this event was supposed to be slept or something.

 

[ozman2]

Few more slight bugs or issues (I think):

-Japan has a ridiculous amount of IC, around 200 or so. Is this intentional? Tokyo alone has 22 IC points upon liberation in 1947.

-When Japan was freed I, as commie china, received an event saying something about retaking the countryside of China when Japan surrendered, creating militia in northern China. I would assume this event was supposed to be slept or something.

I based IC mainly on the 44 scenario, with some reductions due to the bomb damage. It comes out to 146 base IC but modifiers bring it up. I've tracked down the bug relating to peacetime IC mod, which affects Japan, Austria, India and Germany. When the peacetime IC mod that Japan is supposed to have kicks in its effective IC will be about 70-80.

HOTFIX: Add event 2426 to the sleepevent section of the 1945 scenario. That should take care of the extra communist guerrillas.

EDIT: These 2 issues are addressed by 0.13a
You can download 0.13a with the link in my sig. If it doesn't say 0.13a in my sig then refresh your browser.

 

[ozman2]

Nom,
If you get a chance, check out David Miller's The Cold War: A Military History. I think it will be a lot of help for this project.

I think that Vasily Sokolovsky would be a good Soviet Tech team for the post war era. I'd give him Combined arms, large unit tactics, large unit focus, training, infantry focus and start him in 1952. I'd say skill 7.

Also, I think that the DFR's Krauss-Maffei team should be dropped down a skill level or two. The Leopard is a great tank, but the Soviets should be the real innovators in tank design during the post war period.

I think you should add a second surface to air missile tech in the secret weapons tree. This could represent systems like the Nike-Hercules Missile, which came about in the late 1950s/early 1960s. It could add another +50 to flak power.

I'd like to see a 1960 artillery brigade. An example for this would be the
Soviet Union's 122-mm howitzer D-30.

I'd also like to see a 1950s heavy tank brigade. This could represent the likes of the IS-10/T-10.

I think you should add a 1960 version of the anti air artillery brigade. This would represent the ZSU-23-4 (and its canceled American counterpart, the Sergeant York).

Speaking of the brigades that people don't really use....
In my experience, HOI2 players tend not to build anti tank, anti air, tank destroyer, heavy tank, engineer, and super heavy tank brigades. The self propelled artillery brigade is a vastly better bang for your buck, than most of those brigades. Perhaps you could give the post 1950 models a bonus to organization? Then players would have more of a reason to build things like anti tank brigades.

Will add your models
Unfortunately you can't give things like organization to brigades, only to divisions. The only option is to change the stats for the brigade. So am upgrading the late qualities of static artillery, and making late sp_artillery use more supplies. That should give certain countries reason to invest in artillery instead of sp_artillery, especially ones like China and the third world countries. Another posibillity is to have the late infantry unlock new models of garrisons and militia.
Am changing the stats for the late models of artillery vs sp_artillery. Artillery should be a better investment for some countries.
The tank model you specified will require the secret tech of night vision.
I actually intended to add Mobile SAM as anti-air but forgot. So I will add TWO models, your model as 1960 and the SAM-3/SAM-4 as a 1963 model, with a major increase in anti-air capabilities. That could provide a lot of reason for people to invest in them during the Cold War.

BTW am also adding two fixed wing gunships (AC-47, etc) as late model CAS, as well as the A-7 Corsair II. Ultimately all this ended up (in the 70s and therefore not in the mod) as the A-10 Warthog and the Su-25 Frogfoot.

Ringwraith_JP,
The Brazilian tech teams did not make 0.13 but will be in 0.14. Consider please if any specializations can be added. For example, aircraft always require aeronautics and technical efficiency but usually also require artillery or chemistry. Also later models usually require electronics and rocketry. For now I will add them as you suggested. Do you have pictures for added teams? Links to pictures will be OK.

Also would you have any ideas for Argentina?

 

[dannyboy2016]

Will add your models
Unfortunately you can't give things like organization to brigades, only to divisions. The only option is to change the stats for the brigade.

You can add organization to the brigade models.

# 0 - Basic
model = {
cost = 3
buildtime = 60
manpower = 2
defensiveness = 1
toughness = 1
defaultorganisation = 5
softness = -5
softattack = 2
suppression = 1
supplyconsumption = 0.4
fuelconsumption = 0.16
upgrade_time_factor = 0.5
upgrade_cost_factor = 1.0

So am upgrading the late qualities of static artillery, and making late sp_artillery use more supplies.

That should give certain countries reason to invest in artillery instead of sp_artillery, especially ones like China and the third world countries. Another posibillity is to have the late infantry unlock new models of garrisons and militia.

Am changing the stats for the late models of artillery vs sp_artillery. Artillery should be a better investment for some countries.

The tank model you specified will require the secret tech of night vision.
I actually intended to add Mobile SAM as anti-air but forgot. So I will add TWO models, your model as 1960 and the SAM-3 as a 1963 model. Since it was mounted on an ordinary sized truck that would be mobile. If I discover any SAM improvements in the 1960s the mobile SAM can be viewed as the continuation of the anti-air brigade. That could provide a lot of reason for people to invest in them during the Cold War, and they were certainly used in Vietnam.

BTW am also adding two fixed wing gunships (AC-47, etc) as late model CAS, as well as the A-7 Corsair II. Ultimately all this ended up (in the 70s and therefore not in the mod) as the A-10 Warthog and the Su-25 Frogfoot.

Looking good. I eagerly await the next version.

 

[ozman2]

DS,
I'm sure you can add the line but I have no idea whether it would actually work, as there are many commands that you can write that don't work. Will test it sometime but for now just increase the stats (bigger jumps in stats) on the later model artillery.

What is your experience now with the rate of US and Soviet advances? Is it on target or does it still need some work? If it goes as historical, the USSR should be able to keep up in a few areas of its choosing but fall behind in the rest.

 

[dannyboy2016]

I've played till 1952,as the soviets. Sovs are at the forefront of armor and artillery research and equal with the USA in nuclear and rocketry research. I'm slightly behind the USA in aircraft research and quite a ways behind in air doctrines. I'm a little behind in industrial research, way behind in Naval research and naval doctrines. I'm roughly equal with the USA on infantry research.

So far, everything seems about right.

edit- I think you should edit the Soviet inc file to give them cores on southern Sakhalin and the Kuriles.

 

[safferli]

I believe adding Org to brigades works. AC and LA brigades do this in vanilla. I think doing the same thing with doctrines is the tricky part. I'm all for giving late Art little Org boost.

 

[ozman2]

I'll play around with the idea a bit. Am going to implement some land doctrine ideas next time so it might be a while. Here are some ideas:
1) Doctrines evolved from tradition, experience and new technology.
2) Air-Land Battle was actually developed in the 1970s and 80s as a result of the Vietnam War and resulted in purpose-designed CAS planes like the A-10 Warthog. I think a better name for 46 USA doctrine would be Combined Services. What was unique about American military thinking was the amount of naval support and the emphasis on marines. Carrier based air strikes were a major part of Korean War operation by the UN side. I think also that this should require a certain level of Carrier technology. Otherwise I think a country using the American tree that does not have carriers and marines of a certain level should go into the Cold War with Soviet (tank-based) doctrines.
3) Human Wave should also have a branch point. The last technology in the tree, Mechanized Wave is excellent for the Soviets but not a good choice for the Chinese. Instead there should be an alternate extension of the Human Wave tree based on Guerrilla Warfare and Movement Speed Offensive leading to a Sino-Japanese doctrine. Possibly Guerrilla Warfare and Mechanized Wave should lock each other out.
4) Many doctrines should unlock with technology.
5) If you go through the numbers what the countries have at the end of Paradox's tree is really lopsided:
USA +70 max_org + 60 morale
Japan +40 max_org + 100 morale
UK +55 max_org + 50 morale
France +45 max_org + 75 morale
Soviet +40 max_org + 110 morale
Germany +75 max_org + 50 morale
Modern Blitzkrieg should be revised so Germany ends up with 5 less max_org but 10 more morale (I'm going to do this for next release unless there are objections). The only difference between USA and (hypothetical victorious) German doctrine should be that the US gets to research special forces doctrines first and tanks second, whereas Germany would get to research tank doctrines first and the others second. I also think "Modern Blitzkrieg" is a bad name that should actually be applied later. A better name for German 46 doctrine would actually be "Combat Improvisations"
I also think that Soviet doctrines should evolve in the cold war period so they wind up with 20 more max org but somewhat less morale (+60 max_org and somewhere between +80 and + 100 morale). This would provide a more even matchup and obviate the need to write separate NATO and Warsaw paths for everything. They can just get different tank doctrines and technology entry points for the rest of the areas.

I invite comments from anyone who thinks he/she has something to add.

danielshannon,
Based on your report I will probably make no changes overall except to revise land doctrines and scale back the research bonuses from the industrial technologies just a hair. That should give the right balance. Otherwise I think your progress report reflects the fact that you made certain choices. I might also increase the blueprint theft frequency just a bit. It does not look like there is a need to give the Warsaw pact an artificial research bonus. Are you ahead of historical years, on schedule or a bit behind? I need to know whether to increase or decrease the difficulty of research.

 

[azek]

How difficult it would be to install this mod over Community Database Cleanup Project (CDCP) mod, because they modify a few same files? The biggest problem i think is those long text files. It's hard to find those lines which are modified.

 

[ozman2]

azek,
I see no problem in installing over CDCP. It would have to install OVER CDCP and not the other way around, though. The only issue is whether CDCP is stable but at last report they solved their bugs.

 

[dannyboy2016]

nomonhan,
Everything seems about right. I'm about a year ahead of things in Armor and nuclear research. I'm a few years behind on air doctrines, naval doctrines, computers, and naval units. Everything else is about on time. Seems about right to me.

 

[ozman2]

DS,
Thank you for the report. Will do some minor tweaks but nothing major, except for the land doctrine revisions. And I'll probably reduce slightly the research bonus from all the computer techs.

Ringwraith_JP,
Have looked over the Brazilian tech teams and am accepting them essentially as you wrote them but I did change a few specialties to better reflect what they historically researched.

 

[Ringwraith_JP]

DS,
Thank you for the report. Will do some minor tweaks but nothing major, except for the land doctrine revisions. And I'll probably reduce slightly the research bonus from all the computer techs.

Ringwraith_JP,
Have looked over the Brazilian tech teams and am accepting them essentially as you wrote them but I did change a few specialties to better reflect what they historically researched.

I had some problems with specializations. Some teams started researching armored vehicles, for example, and now they're tge biggest UAV producers of Brazil. Most of them changed their specialization over the time.

Here's the link for the team pictures:
http://www.4shared.com/file/73373797/63fa8ce/pics.html

 

[HMS Enterprize]

@nomonhan

I just downloaded your mod. Very impressive, lots of fine work put in.

I have a question. The Fatherland prototype scenario on the selection screen appears at the top of the list of selectable scenarios. How did you do that? My scenarios always appear further down the list near the battle scenarios. I looked in the config folders but I could not see the solution.

Cheers!.

 

[ozman2]

Ringwraith_JP
Unfortunately your link to the pics requires a password, so I made my own.
The changes I made were:
4421;Petrobras;T4421;7;1953;1970;industrial_engineering;chemistry;management;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;x
4422;Engesa ;T4422;6;1963;1970;mechanics;electronics;artillery;technical_efficiency;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;x
4423;Avibras Industria Aeroespacial;T4423;5;1961;1970;mechanics;artillery ;rocketry;technical_efficiency;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;x
Reasons: You want Petrobras to research industrial technology and this is the best component match for industrial technologies. Technical efficiency is for companies that make tanks, ships and airplanes, and signifies their ability to build and test them.
Engesa made tanks, so the specialties represent those needed for tank manufacturing.
Avibras made a kind of rocket artillery, so its specialties represent this.

I hope you approve of the changes.
If push comes to shove you can put a team in twice with different specializations, and different start/end years. Is this warranted?

HMS Enterprize
The trick to getting it to appear at the top is actually quite simple. The scenario names are presented in alphabetical order, so if you put a zero before the scenario name number it will show up first. For example the name for the Doomsday scenario is 0_1945, so since my fatherland prototype is 0_1944 it shows up first.

 

[HMS Enterprize]

HMS Enterprize
The trick to getting it to appear at the top is actually quite simple. The scenario names are presented in alphabetical order, so if you put a zero before the scenario name number it will show up first. For example the name for the Doomsday scenario is 0_1945, so since my fatherland prototype is 0_1944 it shows up first.

Thanks for the tip...dammit I cant believe it was that simple! :rofl:

 

[Oberkommando]

if i use this mod, only tech tree is modified, or something else is by need altered with it?
I want an extended tree, but only from 53 and on. I´ve read something, but i still need someone to tell me more about their experience using this mod. maybe a pic comparing original and modded?

Thanks.

 

[ozman2]

This tree is modded from about 53 onwards for the units and from about 46 onwards for the doctrines, secret weapons and industrial technologies. It gives you roughly a vanilla game experience with some minor changes through the historic WW2 period. I did add night vision to the WW2 era and took out Volksturm as a doctrine (because AI reacts wrongly to it) but otherwise it is unchanged. Occasionally I changed dates. Also I folded Paradox's post-war US carrier doctrines into a longer postwar chain. There are some changes in the names coming. I had to also find a way to make the diverse doctrines of the British, French, and US evolve into a common NATO post-war doctrine, so there are conversion technologies for these.

I originally wanted to be 100% faithful to Paradox for the original tree but in some cases that is not realistic, for one reason or another, and certain things were done in order to cope with the limitations of the HOI2 executable. However it is about 98% faithful, and is designed so that you can load any of the standard scenarios for a new game. There are some screenshots posted in my Fatherland thread which is where I began the development. [Edit--if you look at the first post in this thread I have added a shot of the aircraft models] I have made some refinements since then but it is still substantially the same. Also there is no harm done by downloading it and seeing what changes are made before deciding to install it.

The objective is to give an interesting Cold War period--either the normal Cold War or a hypothetical one involving a victorious Germany. You can play it out to 1963 or with a no-time-limit patch play to 1969 for an interesting space race. Cold war events are not entirely written yet but I have supported Chinese Civil War play, and have written a number of technology-related events.

There are events included also because it is designed to evolve into other things. However, you have the option of playing your own game with standard events and only the techtree or using your favorite mod. Except for the secret weapons technology events, all events are written to a separate folder so your own files are not overwritten.

 

[Ringwraith_JP]

Ringwraith_JP
Unfortunately your link to the pics requires a password, so I made my own.
The changes I made were:
4421;Petrobras;T4421;7;1953;1970;industrial_engineering;chemistry;management;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;x
4422;Engesa ;T4422;6;1963;1970;mechanics;electronics;artillery;technical_efficiency;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;x
4423;Avibras Industria Aeroespacial;T4423;5;1961;1970;mechanics;artillery ;rocketry;technical_efficiency;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;x
Reasons: You want Petrobras to research industrial technology and this is the best component match for industrial technologies. Technical efficiency is for companies that make tanks, ships and airplanes, and signifies their ability to build and test them.
Engesa made tanks, so the specialties represent those needed for tank manufacturing.
Avibras made a kind of rocket artillery, so its specialties represent this.

I hope you approve of the changes.
If push comes to shove you can put a team in twice with different specializations, and different start/end years. Is this warranted?

HMS Enterprize
The trick to getting it to appear at the top is actually quite simple. The scenario names are presented in alphabetical order, so if you put a zero before the scenario name number it will show up first. For example the name for the Doomsday scenario is 0_1945, so since my fatherland prototype is 0_1944 it shows up first.

Avibras is the manufacturer of the ASTROS Self-Propelled Rocket Artillery. In the 90s (and i believe today as well) it was called the best in his category. But today Avibras produces, among other things, UAVs.

Engesa manufactured several light armored vehicles and designed a MBT (the EE-T1 Osório) in the late 80s, but with the USA lobby they failed to sell any copy of the MBT and went bankrupt.

I agree with you.

About the password, check your PM. I sent it to you via PM, but forgot to tell you about that, sorry.

 

[ozman2]

About the password, check your PM. I sent it to you via PM, but forgot to tell you about that, sorry.

Got it. Since you're on the forum, I notice that there are no Brazil political events after 1945. I seem to recall that Brazil made several changes from right to left and back, and recall particularly a João Goulart, who was deposed by a military coup in 64. Can you work up some political events for Brazil, and if need be an updated ministers file? Even though right now I'm mostly concerned about technology this will likely evolve into a full-blown Cold War mod.