Comparing Major Powers

[unmerged(30761)]

To start i woudl like to compare relative merits of 2 majors with similar plot lines: Granada/Cordoba and Byzantium

Number of Cultures
BYZ Greek / Slavonic / Turkish or Italian / Syrian / Georgian (Caucasian)
GRA Arabic / Berber(Morrocan) / Iberian / French ( or Occitan possibly in the new version)

Course of action

Byz can either have mediocre rich turkish culture easily or insanely rich itallian culture very hard. Byzantium can subdue hungary and use it as a nice meaty shield if allied smartly. slavonic territory comes in dirrect contact with itallian and a dedicated push not too late, so they do not become too teched up, will get the needed result. Alliance with kaliphs helps.

Granada can occupy NW, North and NE Africa whithin 100 years. Alliance with the infidels just to the north from the onset is the easiest strategy and could be profitable. Granada has one extra very profitable venture in and it is the whole south of france. as a vassal at first. South of france for this shoudl be subdued between 1545 and 1570. No later then the reformation. After that a push into Kaliphate will grant the rest of the arabic cuture save iraq sometime in the second century..

Now if you are playing Beta 1 and not beta 2 For granada it is even more profitable as the north of france can be your culture too.

Expensive conversions though.

 

[Incompetent]

One culture you missed: Granada/Cordoba can get Basque.

There are going to be a few changes to both BYZ and CRD, by the looks of it:

- BYZ is probably going to lose the opportunity to get Italian culture, and instead be able to get Latin tech.

- There may be some changes to Caucasian, but we haven't come to an agreement on that one.

- Syrian -> Levantine, which will probably cover a larger area, but will be a lot harder to obtain. The Caliphate could re-Arabise the region instead of obtaining Levantine culture.

- Cordoba definitely won't be getting French culture. Occitan culture will be somewhat easier to obtain, however.

 

[unmerged(30761)]

Kurdish culture is pretty much a throw away. yes it is historically and politically accurate, but is not needed

Byzantene event dealing with restoration of armenia it grants cores on native kaliphate territories in kurdistan. which will kill the ai. would probably be better to include daghestan and daghestan armenia and other cauasus provinces in a sub authonomy

 

[Incompetent]

Kurdish culture is pretty much a throw away. yes it is historically and politically accurate, but is not needed

We can keep it for the moment, but it might well disappear if more culture slots are needed elsewhere.

Byzantene event dealing with restoration of armenia it grants cores on native kaliphate territories in kurdistan. which will kill the ai. would probably be better to include daghestan and daghestan armenia and other cauasus provinces in a sub authonomy

Well, there are two ways we can go. One way is to change the cores so they conform to the culture, so Byzantium gets cores on the Caucasus. The other way is to change the cultures to fit the cores, by which I mean Byzantium gets to carry out ethnic cleansing to create 'Greater Armenia' in the Kurdish lands.

MattyG and I discussed the matter in the Ukraine thread for some reason, but we didn't come to an agreement on whether to move the cores or change province culture.

In any case, this can be discussed further in the Byzantium thread.

 

[unmerged(30761)]

Playing as granada

i own all of the arabic caliphate, all of the arabic culture elsewhere, all fo spain, all of france. the addition of french culture, even occitan culture seems a bit over the top. this country has more cultures to derive taxes at 100 from than anywehre else. maybe make kaliphate shiite. and persia sunni in a reversal of roles. maybe make every 2nd north african country shiite. so they rebel all the time. Make mali ortodox. maybe egipt all ortodox

no other country has it this easy this early on

except kaliphate.

the unified arab world by 1525 is really really something silly.

all of north iberian provinsula should fight together not start 3 separate wars with granada upon the provocation. as it stands asturias just sits there with equivalent of the army granada can muster becaause it does not have military access to the lands of their neighbours

also the south fench provinces are too friendly to caliphate. they shoudl be at minus 125 to them, just above burgundy and savoye.

 

[Incompetent]

Playing as granada

i own all of the arabic caliphate, all of the arabic culture elsewhere, all fo spain, all of france. the addition of french culture, even occitan culture seems a bit over the top. this country has more cultures to derive taxes at 100 from than anywehre else. maybe make kaliphate shiite. and persia sunni in a reversal of roles. maybe make every 2nd north african country shiite. so they rebel all the time. Make mali ortodox. maybe egipt all ortodox.

Having tried the Moroccan route with Granada, I know what you mean. Arabic culture for Cordoba should probably have a lot more strings attached, though I would point out that Cordoba won't be able to have Arabic and Occitan culture at the same time.

We can certainly shake things up a bit religion-wise, but there needs to be justification. I'd say the following:

Islam as a whole has taken enough of a battering already in Abe, with the loss of India and most of Persia. Orthodoxy already has three champions among the major powers; it doesn't need too much of a boost. Christendom generally is quite large enough, and I don't particularly want to turn the Med into an entirely Christian lake.

The Baghdad Caliphate pretty much defines orthodox Islam. I don't see any need to change them from Sunni. The very name 'Shiite' is a bad one for the main group of Muslims, as AFAIK 'Shia' means 'party' or 'faction' (ie, the faction supporting Caliph 'Ali all those years ago).

Lots of religions are vying for control of Persia; Shiism plays a fairly minor role there. The main opponents of the Sunnis are the Buddhist Il-Khans, and later the Zoroastrians.

Other places could be Shiite, but most of the Sunni/Shiite conflict was way in the past, in the first couple of centuries of Islam. Instead, I propose we use 'Shiite' as a generic label for heretical Islamic movements - so 'Shiites' are to Baghdad as Protestants/Reformists are to Rome. Indeed, some of the in-game effects are rather similar, with automatic CBs, the possibilty of force-conversion and a ban on marriage.

In the Abe backstory, the Caliphate has remained leader of the Muslim world. It couldn't do this if there were heretics left, right and centre. If there are more actual Shias in 1419, they're not going to be in the Caliphate's backyard. HOWEVER the Caliphate's moral leadership is waning. There are several candidates for anti-Baghdad movements over the course of the game:

- Cordoba: Cordoba has more contact with the Christian world than most Muslim countries, and its population is mostly Christian (at least at first). It's also portrayed as quite tolerant and open to new ideas, as indicated by its tech group. Finally, it's powerful enough to resent being subordinate to Baghdad in any sense of the word. So a new strain of Islam could emerge in Cordoba, and it could end up being more liberal and commerce-oriented (lifting the ban on money-lending at interest, for example), and/or carrying Christian influences, such as an increased role for Jesus.

- West Africa: Islam and Animist beliefs have coexisted in West Africa for over a millenium, and even today many people have a mixture of beliefs. But what if this mixture had become more formalised? Say a Songhai emperor, seeking legitimacy, creates a new religion which blends Koranic ideas with local traditions.

- Maya, Indonesia, other places: Muslim missionaries may end up going to places in the world which are very far from Baghdad. But who knows what will happen when these preachers come into contact with organised non-Abrahamic religions?

 

[yourworstnightm]

I think Cordoba could start as sunni and get a convertion event, also the Kaliphate should get a possibility to jihad against the heretic kaliphas in Hispania (but not get any cores, the kaliphate already get a lot of cores).

 

[unmerged(31994)]

- Cordoba: Cordoba has more contact with the Christian world than most Muslim countries, and its population is mostly Christian (at least at first). It's also portrayed as quite tolerant and open to new ideas, as indicated by its tech group. Finally, it's powerful enough to resent being subordinate to Baghdad in any sense of the word. So a new strain of Islam could emerge in Cordoba, and it could end up being more liberal and commerce-oriented (lifting the ban on money-lending at interest, for example), and/or carrying Christian influences, such as an increased role for Jesus.

uhhh no the Andalusians have defeated the Shiite/heretical movements entirely from al-Andalus.This would not make sense since the Andalusians boasted of being Hanafi muslims and they were in contact with Christians for centuries so nothing of that kind occured.Im totally against this change.

- West Africa: Islam and Animist beliefs have coexisted in West Africa for over a millenium, and even today many people have a mixture of beliefs. But what if this mixture had become more formalised? Say a Songhai emperor, seeking legitimacy, creates a new religion which blends Koranic ideas with local traditions.

I dont agree with that either, Morocco and North Africa has a major influence on them and to be honest its against logic with the city of Timbuktu still there.

- Maya, Indonesia, other places: Muslim missionaries may end up going to places in the world which are very far from Baghdad. But who knows what will happen when these preachers come into contact with organised non-Abrahamic religions?

That is what I suggested, with the Shiites fleeing from Persia thanks to the Caliphate and Ill Khanata infightings, they take flee to the islands of Malaya where they establish the Shiite Kingdoms awaiting the coming of the 12th Imam.I can make some events for such states if you like it.

 

[unmerged(26209)]

That is what I suggested, with the Shiites fleeing from Persia thanks to the Caliphate and Ill Khanata infightings, they take flee to the islands of Malaya where they establish the Shiite Kingdoms awaiting the coming of the 12th Imam.I can make some events for such states if you like it.

As I understand it, the political schism in the muslim world that IRL created the partioning into Sunni and Shi'ite never happened in Abe, as the Sunnis managed to defeat the Shiites, and as such, no shiism exists in Abe in 1419. The plan is instead to use the tag for shiite as suggested above: a protestant/reformed-like movement against the sunni.

The best candidate for this is Coroboda, as they are the only ones strong enough to actually do this on a major scale and still survive the anger of the Caliph. Thus, I suggst Corboda is the reformant, but I do not belive that the impact of christians should be the driving cause. Some other idea should be used instead.

 

[Incompetent]

I dont agree with that either, Morocco and North Africa has a major influence on them and to be honest its against logic with the city of Timbuktu still there.

I don't see what Timbuktu has to do with anything. Sure, it's a bastion of Sunni Islam, but why does that mean the whole Songhai Empire has to be orthodox? There's a lot more to West Africa than that one city!

Islamic influence is not the same as hegemony. You could say England, France, the Netherlands and Spain, all Christian countries, mostly carved up the Caribbean between them. But that didn't stop various 'corruptions' of Christianity emerging in the Caribbean, from Santeria to Rastafarianism. Now I would say Islam and the Muslim world's power in West Africa is a good deal weaker than Christian power in the Caribbean. So why couldn't a religion have emerged there that combined Islam with something else, like Sikhism did in India?

 

[unmerged(26209)]

While a religion could have emerged, it wouldn't be of major importance, and thus we should perhaps reserve our tag for something else? (or perhaps make all of these ideas inte shi'ite, using it as a sort of generic non-sunni tag.)

 

[Incompetent]

(or perhaps make all of these ideas inte shi'ite, using it as a sort of generic non-sunni tag.)

That was what I was thinking of. With the Safavids a minor force in Aberrated Persia, Shia as such is not going to be that important either. But various different heresies could spring up, and they'd still be taken seriously by the Sunni world. I think the 'Shiite' religious slot needs to refer to something Islamic, given its hard-coded in-game effects (not least the fact that Sunnis and Shias share a tolerance slider for non-Muslims).

 

[Nikolai II]

While a religion could have emerged, it wouldn't be of major importance, and thus we should perhaps reserve our tag for something else? (or perhaps make all of these ideas inte shi'ite, using it as a sort of generic non-sunni tag.)

Much like the Orthodox religion is used to denote "anything that is not catholic (or a catholic heresy)"?

 

[unmerged(26209)]

Much like the Orthodox religion is used to denote "anything that is not catholic (or a catholic heresy)"?

That depends on how you define catholic heresy really, but somewhat like that.

 

[unmerged(1047)]

Well, Orthodox really refers to the Eastern churches who never recognized the authority of the Pope (they see their regional Patriarchs as independent and equal to the Pope.)

I like the idea of using the Shiite tag as a sort of "Protestant Muslim" situation, possibly with a changed name and/or logo. Especially given the in-game effects (for example, the fact that Sunni and Shiite can force-convert one another but not convert willigly except by event). And I like the ideas of both Cordoba and the Far Eastern muslims in this category, for different reasons - but then, Anglican and Lutheran aren't the same thing, yet we use Protestant for both.

In Cordoba's case, I see it as a practical kingdom, where perhaps they are seen as heretics by the Sunnis because they do not strictly enforce Koranic laws (perhaps having judged some of the punishments to be prescribed as overkill, or some crimes related to interactions with non-Muslims to be overzealous). Not exactly influenced by Christian beliefs, but perhaps having learned to "live and let live" with the Christians and be a bit more tolerant of non-Muslims in their midst.

In the Far East, they could have been religiously influenced by Hindus, Buddhists, or other Eastern religions, or adopted some of their facades (the orange-clad monks for example)....

 

[yourworstnightm]

I think we scratch shi'teh altogether and create a reformed islamic faith instead, with cool events for the islamic reformation and religous independence from the Kaliphate and tensions between the old sunnite world and the new reformed islamic nations. Cordoba as the source of the reformation is fine with all it's contacts with the christian world.

 

[unmerged(31994)]

Hmmm so Shiitism isnt the Shiitism Im thinking of? well .....I do have an idea for Cordoba....Since in al-Andalus Mutazalite ideas did have a bastion, but they died out, however since al-Andalus did survive, I would assume they would have a greater influence in Spain.

Event :-

Mutazalite Rebirth

Mu'tazili theology originated in the 8th century in al-Basrah when Wasil ibn Ata left the teaching lessons of al-Hasan al-Basri after a theological dispute; thus he and his followers were labelled Mu'tazili. Later, Mu'tazilis called themselves Ahl al-'Adl wa al-Tawhid ("People of Justice and Monotheism") based on the theology they advocated, which expanded on the logic and rationalism of Greek philosophy, seeking to combine them with Islamic doctrines and show that the two were inherently compatible.The Mu'tazili teachings found refugee in Al-Andalus when the Caliphs of Baghdad expelled them for heretical teachings.Though the sect had found a haven in al-Andalus, they died out thanks to the continous warring between the Muslims and Christians.In these times of peace however, the Mu'tazilites teachings are in revival amongst the elite and aritocratic members of Andalusian society.

Mutazalites & the Nasrid Court

During this period, several questions were being debated by Muslim theologians, including whether the Qur'an was created or eternal, whether evil was created by God, the issue of predestination versus free will, whether God's attributes in the Qur'an were to be interpreted allegorically or literally, and whether sinning believers would have eternal punishment in hell. Islam was also dealing with a number of doctrines later deemed to be heresy, as well as challenges to it from atheists. Mu'tazili thought attempted to address all these issues.The Nasrid Sultans took fine intrest in the teachings of the Mu'tazilis and their influence expanded in al-Andalus.

Bayet el-Hikma (House of Wisdom) in Cordoba

Mu'tazilism's rationalism was appealing to the learned classes of the time, as was its stance on Free Will, and its perceived opposition to the rival theologies. However, being elitist in nature, it never gained ground with the masses, and its adoption by the rulers and the subsequent persecution of scholars made it appeal even less to the public.Mu'tazilis initially focused on attacks on Islam from non-Muslims. However they soon became focussed on debating other theologies and sects within Islam itself.

In the begining of the 16th century, Abu Kamal of Valencia , the famous Muslim astronomer and noble embarked on an ambitious plan to make the Mu'tazali teachings more appealing, by constructing the magnificent House of Wisdom in Cordoba that would act as a beacon for the rational and logical teachings of this ever expanding sect.

Reformation of Laws based on Mutazali teachings

One of the tenents of Mu'tazalitism was Justice.Facing the problem of existence of evil in a world where God is omnipotent, the Mu'tazilis pointed at the free will of human beings, so that evil was defined as something that stems from the errors in human acts. God does no evil, and he demands not from any human to perform any evil act. If man's evil acts had been from the will of God, then punishment would have been meaningless, as man performed God's will no matter what he did.Thus the Mu'tazalites pressured the Sultan of al-Andalus to embark on reforming the law system on which the state was founded, a kinder and more tolerant version of Islamic shariah.

Persecution under the Mutazalis

Under (You add the name of the Sultan), an inquisition-like persecution (Arabic: Mihna "Ordeal") was undertaken against scholars who did not adhere to Mu'tazili thought. Its main form was forcing non-adherents to renounce the doctrine that the Qur'an was eternal, and instead attest that it was created.

I choose the Mutazalites, because these are the most logical and rational of all Muslim sects(in terms of explaining the world that is), they were humanists in a sense.They loved Islam and philosophy and considered knowledge the key to all things.Since Islamic Spain in Abberation is still a fountain of knowledge, the Mutazalites (Since they were at odds with the Sunnis on many issues, especially the Quran, and being excellent representatives of Andalusian society) they would be your best choice.

 

[unmerged(26209)]

choose the Mutazalites, because these are the most logical and rational of all Muslim sects(in terms of explaining the world that is), they were humanists in a sense.They loved Islam and philosophy and considered knowledge the key to all things.Since Islamic Spain in Abberation is still a fountain of knowledge, the Mutazalites (Since they were at odds with the Sunnis on many issues, especially the Quran, and being excellent representatives of Andalusian society) they would be your best choice.

Lovely. How about adding a sultan in the 1490s who become a devote Mutazalite, eventually leading to him, after a feud with the Caliph, abolishing the sunni believes in Corboda, making the Mutazalites the official strain of Islam in his country?

 

[unmerged(31994)]

Well Mutazalites are kinda sunni, and I doubt any Sultan would abolish the beliefs of his population.The Mutazalites are at odds with Sunni orthadox theologians because of many issues, like the Quran's ideals.Its hard to explain, they disagree with "inner" matters , such as articles of faith, but agree in everything else like acts and so forth.I mean if we lived in Abberation , same time, I wouldnt find the Mutazalites heretics, just overly educated Muslims for example with a slight difference of understanding to Islam.

I would make the event something like this :-

A Message arrives from the Caliph of Baghdad

The discussions regarding the nature of the Quran reached the ears of the Caliph of Baghdad.He found the matter insulting, since the Quran is eternal and not created as the heretical Mutazalites advocate.In the spring of 1493 , the Caliph dispatched an envoy to Cordoba to force the Nasrid Sultan to renounce the Mutazalite theologians and confirm the eternity of the Quran.

What should we do?

Rebuff the Caliph's audacious envoy!the Quran is created!
Turn the Caliph's envoy away, dont cause a fuss
Greet the envoy!the Quran is eternal as allah!

Actually this gives me an idea...

Event :

Mutazalite Caliphate

The Mutazalites were adrehent believers in the democratic ideals of the Plato republic.They moarned the distruption caused by Amru bin Al-As against the old ways of elections of the first Muslims.The Mu'tazalites took matters into their own hands and tried to persuade the Sultan to re-institute the righteous Caliphate once again.Of course, nothing would really change, but the Caliph title would be reclaimed by the Andalusians, reviving the old tensions of West and East once again, the ties between Cordoba and Baghdad have once again...severed.

Take up the title!
Dont fracture Islam!

 

[unmerged(30761)]

It seems to be that sunni and shiite in EU behave slightly differently. Seems that while sunni can tolerably live with each other and with other religions shia just hate everyone's guts and have a cb against every rock.

so while in game cordoba could be sunni just like Kapliphate should there be a conquest attemt against the lands of above names kingsdom the territory that is conquered could have an event file stating that if this territory owned by cordoba it is sunni and if not owned by cordoba then it is sunshiiteni

this would insure harder conquest