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Comparing Major Powers

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tarakan said:
It seems to be that sunni and shiite in EU behave slightly differently. Seems that while sunni can tolerably live with each other and with other religions shia just hate everyone's guts and have a cb against every rock.
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Sunnis have a CB on all Shias, and vice versa. The situation is symmetric. The reason Shia countries seem psychotic in vanilla is because there are so many Sunni countries.

@Calipah: This is a great idea. As you say, the Mu'tazalites are Sunnis, but if they pursue their beliefs far enough, they could provoke a big split with Baghdad. At that point it makes sense to start modelling them as a different religious group.

@tarakan: I don't know if I like the idea of provinces turning 'Shiite' when they're not owned by Cordoba. I would have thought it would be easier to just make Cordoba a different religion to the Caliphate. Otherwise the two countries will get along with each other as if nothing happened.
 
Yep, when the Sultan of Cordoba declares himself Caliph, that will provoke the split and the new religious fixture.
 
I think we are heading in a very interesting direction here.

I applaud the event outlines you have developed. I think the event to change religion needs to come during the early colonial years, as this will create the most intrigue, with some provinces being Sunni and newer ones becoming the new heresy religion.

Then some thought needs to go into how the rest of the Sunni world will respond. Will it simply isolate Cordoba? Will other's be drawn in, either from a theological standpoint, or to oppose the Caliphate?

Look forward to seeing how it all develops.

Matty
 
I am thinking, let's have the heresy divide Islam into east/west. Morocco (which ought to be abberated itself soon), Algeria and Tunisia joining Corboda, as well as all the African minors south of these (that are sunni, and also this could be changed via event choices off course), with the rest keeping the old sunni believes.

Also, the Caliphate could get an event to first try to scare Corboda into becoming Sunni again, and if that fails if Corboda says no, the Caliphate could chose to go to war or to let it go. War between the two could lead to Corboda being forced into Sunni again, or the Calpih loosing, leading to Tripoli and possibly also Egypt converting to the new faith (Corboda being stronger and thus providing more protection against Europe).
 
MattyG said:
I think we are heading in a very interesting direction here.

I applaud the event outlines you have developed. I think the event to change religion needs to come during the early colonial years, as this will create the most intrigue, with some provinces being Sunni and newer ones becoming the new heresy religion.

Then some thought needs to go into how the rest of the Sunni world will respond. Will it simply isolate Cordoba? Will other's be drawn in, either from a theological standpoint, or to oppose the Caliphate?

Look forward to seeing how it all develops.

Matty
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Perhaps the Moroccan route for Cordoba would be much harder or impossible if they're not Sunni, but other benefits could accrue from supporting the Mu'tazalites (eg better tech). As it's right on the edge of the Muslim world, Cordoba tends to be fairly isolated anyway, with only Morocco and Algiers as hangers-on. The Mu'tazalite Cordoba would probably just be a more extreme version of this, though that doesn't prevent them from attracting new converts, eg I imagine any New World converts to Islam would follow Cordoba's version of it. We could help the Mu'tazalites out with events, but because of their geographic isolation, we don't need to go overboard to make them a viable choice for Cordoba (unlike the Caliphate, where going Shia is just pure masochism!)


Also: If we're going with the religious changes to Cordoba and Persia, we need to a) remove the Shia option for the Baghdad Caliphate (as it now makes even less sense than it did before), b) have some events for if the Baghdad Caliphate is force-converted to 'Shiite' (ie Mu'tazalite, probably, as Cordoba's about the only heretic country strong enough to take the Caliphate down like that). The latter would be a complete disaster for the Caliph, as it means his authority as leader of the Muslim community has been totally undermined by the heretics. Perhaps if this happens, the Caliphate should cease to be the Caliphate altogether, with a new Sunni Caliphate emerging in another country or as a breakaway country.
 
The East-West divide is the natural approach, with the states in between having to chose a path that is perhaps more expediant politically than genuinely believed.

Of course, the divide doesn't need to be so much about real theology, but about who will control the Islamic world.

This will create the starting point for some extremely interesting storylines throughout North Africa, as different factions within each country try to buy what favour they can from Cordoba and the Caliphate.

Caliphate attacking Cordoba? I'd say we need to avoid this, as the ai will not know how to do it correctly. The Caliphate already spends too mucb time at war, and although they grow quickly, they can often spend themselves by 1500 and find themselves unmanageable and slow in techs. If this event triggers and they try and launch an invasion, they will probably implode.
 
MattyG said:
The East-West divide is the natural approach, with the states in between having to chose a path that is perhaps more expediant politically than genuinely believed.

Of course, the divide doesn't need to be so much about real theology, but about who will control the Islamic world.

This will create the starting point for some extremely interesting storylines throughout North Africa, as different factions within each country try to buy what favour they can from Cordoba and the Caliphate.

Caliphate attacking Cordoba? I'd say we need to avoid this, as the ai will not know how to do it correctly. The Caliphate already spends too mucb time at war, and although they grow quickly, they can often spend themselves by 1500 and find themselves unmanageable and slow in techs. If this event triggers and they try and launch an invasion, they will probably implode.
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I didn't say anything about the Caliphate attacking Cordoba. But a player Cordoba might take it upon themselves to attack and force-convert the Caliphate, and if they succeed there need to be consequences - good ones for Cordoba, and very bad ones for Baghdad. It's like if the Protestants had seized control of Rome, forcing the Pope and most of the cardinals to accept Luther's 95 theses and make them official Catholic doctrine.

Certainly some countries will switch to Cordoba's side out of convenience, but these won't necessarily be numerous. I think it would be interesting if some states, such as Morocco, remained bastions of orthodoxy. After all, it would be rather convenient for Byzantium or Finland to join the Latin world, but it doesn't mean they will! My point is that Cordoba doesn't need to get half the Muslim world to support their glorious Caliphate - with its colonial interests, European expansion and high tech, they can do just fine carving out their own path.

OTOH, maybe a strong Egypt would be tempted to side with Cordoba, to legitimise wars against the Caliphate et al? Maybe this can be an aspect of the country's civil war? We can have things a lot more mixed up than a simple East-West split, with a straightforward divide only emerging after a string of force-conversions.
 
Look, let me make something strait, since the Shiites never appeared, and in RL Persia was completely sunni before the Savavid take over, Persia should remain Sunni under the ill-Khans.

I am currently working on making new Caliphate events, to make that beautiful country more intresting, and if you wish, I can also try to make the Mutazalite events for Cordoba and her feud with the Caliphate.I think I can do it and hopefully it will gain your approval.

Regarding the Muslim world, the event should be something like this, however I highly advice it remains close or limited to North Africa.I doubt all lands after Palestine would be sympathetic to this type of thought.Although the Mutazalites had some power and influence around the Caliphate long long ago, they were banished by the Caliph al-Mustansir billah.

Event : A Choice between the Mind and the Heart

With the Mutazalite Enlightment dawning al-Andalus, the effects of the new religious tidal wave are reaching our very court.A new Caliphate has been declared in al-Andalus based on the ideals of love, compassion and knowledge.The Caliph in Baghdad has urged the Ulema throught Dar al-Islam to fight back against the heresy of Cordoba.My lord, we are pressured from all sides, we must make a stand now, shall we embrace the new teachings in Cordoba or affirm our belief in the authority of the Caliph of Baghdad?
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Incompetent said:
OTOH, maybe a strong Egypt would be tempted to side with Cordoba, to legitimise wars against the Caliphate et al? Maybe this can be an aspect of the country's civil war? We can have things a lot more mixed up than a simple East-West split, with a straightforward divide only emerging after a string of force-conversions.
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That was what I was thinking, with the eastern egyptians being supported by the Caliphate and the Fatamids being supported by Cordoba.Im making some events for a Caliphate expansion into Egypt "since it makes sense" in my opinion.This would add intrigue into the whole matter I think.
 
Incompetent said:
I didn't say anything about the Caliphate attacking Cordoba. .
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I never said you did, I was responding to someone else's statement on that. :)

The new 'faith' in Cordoba should be initially limited to North Africa at most.

Then, we see what happens. One of the great things about mods such as this is that they grow and chage with playing. After 20 or 30 times through playing Cordoba and other muslim countries, the direction of this heresy will become clearer. Intriguing new dimensions may appear, or it may become obvious that it was a mistake.

So, it's actually better to start small and then build as appropriate. It's one of the reasons the Caliph can begin adding new colour and richness to the Khaliphate, because the initial structure has been churned through so many times that the spaces and possibilites have become clearer.
 
This is how Grenada (Damn it, CORDOBA) should look like folks :D

6pm1q1.jpg

ehhh just changed the sheilds, name of the country, and shifted and capital and cot after changing the name of Toledo into Cordoba, easy, No? :p
 
Yeah... I think we should / would revive the idea of a seperate vassal state for the lands north of the Pyrrenees, once there's more than just those two provinces, though. Something of a Cordoban satellite state, like what the Soviets did in Eastern Europe, instead of an integral part of Cordoba. We'd need a name though, but something like the "Sultanate of Bordeaux" or the "Emirate of Marseilles"....
 
Not really, I liked the event form for a Muslim vassal state in France "forcing the protestants to become sunni" and then a revolt with a reinforced takeover by Cordoba.Incompetant, when will they begin the makeover for Cordoba?
 
Calipah said:
Not really, I liked the event form for a Muslim vassal state in France "forcing the protestants to become sunni" and then a revolt with a reinforced takeover by Cordoba.Incompetant, when will they begin the makeover for Cordoba?
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I can work on Cordoba after I've done Scotland. I haven't done a lot with Cordoba so far, but it'll probably look a lot like the current event file, together with some additions like the Mutazalite option. I have written a sketch for how Cordoba's intervention in France might go though, which will include a more conquest-friendly approach to cores. Of course, the details of this would depend on what happens in Occitania and Savoy.
 
Premise

Bavaria is too strong and suffers from "austria syndrom" / AKA "THE BLOB"

Proposal

Make Bavaria Dutch/German instead of German/Dutch power.

Make them interested in Middle Germany most and northern / eastern germany some.

Make swabia South german protestant power on relatively bad terms with bavaria no matter what they do. Make swabia interested in catholic italy
 
my latest game they were just eaten by swabia that stretches from sicily to hannover and burgundy that occupies the whole of france plus the lowlands. the year is 1500. the eastern europe is wholly hungarian.
go figure. im playing the caliphate
 
tarakan said:
my latest game they were just eaten by swabia that stretches from sicily to hannover and burgundy that occupies the whole of france plus the lowlands. the year is 1500. the eastern europe is wholly hungarian.
go figure. im playing the caliphate
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Well quite. I think Bavaria's enormous 'strength' needs to be put into perspective, as while it often does very well, it also often does very badly, by pissing everyone off and getting attacked by the whole of Europe. Usually this is to the benefit of one or two of its neighbours, in this case Swabia and Burgundy.

Bavaria needs some readjustment. But the countries which seem to never do badly and often become monsters, ie Burgundy, Hungary and the Caliphate, are the ones we should be looking at just nerfing.
 
i propose a cyclic event that fires every 4 years that checks if papal lands are owned by anyone but the papal states. if so it releases them. if they are vassalized it breaks the vassalization. the ai is too stupid to release it.
 
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