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I'm more temped to go with systems because it seems with my dealings with sci-fi (mostly with WH40k and Star Wars) they usually refer to a system such as the "Hoth System" or the "Armeggedon System," It represents one major planet, like the Hive Planet Armeggedon in WH40k, with its surrounding minor planets or bases. That way, when the major base falls, the rest of the system crumbles.


Also, we need to add jokes in the planet names, take planet names from all different movies like a "Hoth" and a "Dune" (Or "Arakkas")... and of course not all the latin names have to be serious.... :rolleyes:
 
I think that the Starcraft world could be incorporated as well as long as we keep our map to 2200 planets
 
Well, we might be better off with about 500 sea zones, as that would allow us an average of 3.4 provinces per system.

I'm starting to wonder about Mr. Capitailist's approach, though. The best way to represent the way I want to do things is, I think, to have planets as land and space as sea. However, if instead we had several galaxies and used land provinces to designate both planets and the space around it, and only used sea zones for intergalactic space, we might have a better system for representing a sci-fi setting within the confines of the EU2 engine (for instance, pretty much every sci-fi setting has huge space fleets coupled with small strike teams of marines, but war in EU2 is siege warfare, which would lead to hige forts and huge armies when the Ships should be doing the sieging).

My only concern is that these galaxies, of necessity, would be huge, and that creates a problem with sea provinces. The larger the galaxy, the more sea provinces are required to border it (to prevent starships millions of light years apart ending up in combat because they entered the same space province from extremely distant parts of the galaxy. Thus I think we'd need quite a bit more sea provinces than 200.
 
Reveilled said:
Well, we might be better off with about 500 sea zones, as that would allow us an average of 3.4 provinces per system.

I'm starting to wonder about Mr. Capitailist's approach, though. The best way to represent the way I want to do things is, I think, to have planets as land and space as sea. However, if instead we had several galaxies and used land provinces to designate both planets and the space around it, and only used sea zones for intergalactic space, we might have a better system for representing a sci-fi setting within the confines of the EU2 engine (for instance, pretty much every sci-fi setting has huge space fleets coupled with small strike teams of marines, but war in EU2 is siege warfare, which would lead to hige forts and huge armies when the Ships should be doing the sieging).

My only concern is that these galaxies, of necessity, would be huge, and that creates a problem with sea provinces. The larger the galaxy, the more sea provinces are required to border it (to prevent starships millions of light years apart ending up in combat because they entered the same space province from extremely distant parts of the galaxy. Thus I think we'd need quite a bit more sea provinces than 200.
Click to expand...
So, 2200 - 500 equals 1700, maybe instead, 3 galaxies and 700 sea provs, 700 seas, and three galaxies of 500 provs each?

I don't know about your Space-Land-Sea thing, maybe... instead, we can find a way to increase the effects of a blockade, thus simulating an orbital bombardment. But you still need grunts, who cannot fly across space, to atrack the surface instalations.

Land units could be:
Infantry
Tanks (for Cav)
Artillery (for sieging)

Sea Units could be:
Star Ship (for warships)
Destoryer Squadron (becuase smaller ships cannot enter too deeply into space)
Space Transport
 
Two different ideas

1) more then one province to a planet. The province can represent an abstract "region", so it wouldn't be nessecary to model anything geographically plausible. This would allow for a lot more flexibility in terms ground combat. Remember that there are only 3 naval units, one of which has no attack. If you want to add tactical depth to the game, ground combat needs to be a consideration in it. Multiple regions that you have to invade allow that.

In a single sea zone you would then have as many habital planets as there are in the star system. Usually 1 or 2, with maybe a small moon. You have to use Terra Incognito if you want to represent the Sun, but that's not nessecary. Different sized planets have more or less regions to them (moons almost always having 1 or 2). I'm thinking, on average, 4 or 5 regions per planet.

You could even put straits inbetween planets/moons within a star system. This can represent the fact that you don't need FTL (faster then light) transportation to switch between planets, meaning you don't need "the fleet" there to move between them. Localized transportation could then be abstracted.

The benefit to this way, again, makes planetary invasions more interesting. Since there isn't a lot of tactical variantion in terms of space combat, putting more focus on terra invasions could make the game more interesting. It also opens up some different scenarios. You could for example do a "Dawn of Spaceflight" Scenario with an earth abstracted as 5 different regions, all independent of each other who go out and colonize. The "Grand Campigan" could even involve events where colonies splinter off to form their own new nations or capitals move off world, etc.

2) The as mentioned a "province = system" setup. Would probably be the most aestetically pleasing, would give you more room for a vast universe. Simple, straightforward.

The problems I see with this setup however is that it's also the least interesting =P
 
LSSpam said:
The benefit to this way, again, makes planetary invasions more interesting. Since there isn't a lot of tactical variantion in terms of space combat, putting more focus on terra invasions could make the game more interesting.
Click to expand...

The downside of that, though is that fortresses are built in land provinces, not sea ones, so the problem with land invasions is that they will inevitably descend into siege warfare, something that is conducted almost exclusively by ships in Science Fiction.

On the other hand, if me make intra-galactic space into land provinces, it would theoretically be possible to give important systems their own planets, simply having all those provinces surrounded by a single land province (which would be disguised as a sea/space province). Thus, land forces represent FTL ships, space marine strike teams, and orbital siege warfare machines (which can be represented as infantry, cavalry and artillery respectively), while sea forces represent intergalactic starships and transports.

Here:
eu2spacegalaxy2zd.gif

Right, this shows the sprial arm of a galaxy, with some hastily drawn provinces representing systems, and one province which also contains Earth and Mars. Shown on the map are Deep Space Provinces (sea zones, very dark grey) Space provinces (equivalent of mountains, grey), and a grassland province (plains, green), among others.

Because we would represent non-intergalactic space with mountains, cavalry (space marines) would be at a severe disavantage when fighting in it. However, attack a grassland province (a planet), and space marines have a large advantage, however, starships (infantry) are still capable of laying siege to the planet after the marines have disposed of the ground forces.

Another important aspect of this to consider is that by keeping the galaxies seperate from intergalactic space, we can control more easily access to the other galaxies. Using Conquistadors, we can prevent players from leaving their galaxy while still letting them explore this one, while giving them explorers would let them sail right out of their galaxy and into the next one instead of exploring the galaxy they are in.
 
Okay, now I am starting to understand where you are coming from with this. That means the number of sea vs land provs will have to be drastically redone. It does, though, make the scenario much more interesting.

But no one has answered my question, was is the maximum number of provs in the most recent beta?

Also, if anyone could show me a step-by-step instructions on editing the map, I'll be happy to help edit the map for this mod.
 
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While we debate the map, I'll keep coming up with ideas for everything else that makes the game run.

Right now, techs and religion:

Techs:
Orthodox -> Humanoid (I don't understand it, in every Sci-fi man is ahead of most, but still behind) (This is the over-all majority of nations in this mod)

Latin -> Warp (The title is from WH40k, but it represents those with a higher intelligence then just physics)

Muslim -> Looters (These people are ahead of lesser beings but usually get their technology from looting from higher beings)

China -> Developing nation lv 2*
Exotic -> Developing nation lv 1*

* My plan (really idea) for China and Exotic is that races of these kinds can evolve into the other types. After reaching a certain size or tech level, they will get an event that will upgrade them from Exotic to China. After more developement, they will get a three choice event. Selecting to become "balanced" will move them to orthodox, selecting to "study the warp" will move them to latin but they will loose units, and military research. Selecting to become a military horde will move them to muslim and give them military research at the expense of their economic research; they will also reseave some units.


Religions: Religion will be more used to show social structure as well as religion. I believe the effects of religion (especially for the "protestant" tag) need to be toned down while others greatly increased.

Catholic -> God-Emperor ((For races like the Space Marines of WH40k) They have a single, immortal leader whom they worship)

Reformed -> Warpism (This religion is only for those of the Latin tech-group and represents their belief in the higher-sciences)

Orthodox -> Theocracy (Kinda like God-Emperors, only they believe in a higher-being)

Protestant -> Planet-Specific (These people cover a mass of planets and for the sake of not causing a revolution, allow planets to worship their own religion (probably the one before they were annexed))

CRC -> Military Junta (This is an atheistic or agnostic state run by the military. It does really have to be atheist/agnostic, but the part of religion is played down...)

Bhuddist -> Monks (This is a peaceful planet, almost like a communial planet of worship, these people are probably low on the tech scale and are relatively easy to push over)

Hindi -> Hive (This is for bug-like hordes, like that of starship troopers. They are mindless killing machines who stem from a single ruler matriarch)

Confushist -> Native Religion (Polytheistic and reserved for the exotic tech-group)

Sunni -> Native Religion (Monotheistic and reserved for the exotic tech group)

Shia -> Native Religion (Reserved for nations in the development lv 2 stage (china group))



As for effects:
God Emperor:
Likes:
Theocracy
Military Junta

Dislikes:
Warpism
Planet-Specific

Tech:
Military 60%, Economy 40%

Warpism:
Likes:
Monks
Planet-specific

Dislikes:
Theocracy
God-Emperor

Tech:
Military 30%, Economy 70%

Theocracy:
Likes:
God-Emperor
Monks

Dislikes:
Warpism
Planet-Specific

Tech:
Military 50%, Economy 50%

Planet-Specific:
Likes:
Monks
Military Junta

Dislikes:
Theocracy
God-Emperor

Tech:
Military 40%, Economy 60%

Military Junta:
Likes:
God Emperor
Theocracy

Dislikes:
Warpism
Monks

Tech:
Military 99%, Economy 1%

Monks:
Likes:
Theocracy
Warpism

Dislikes:
Military Junta

Tech:
Military 1%, Economy 99%


* Hive, Poly and Mono are all disliked by all groups (so they weren't listed), they also dislike all other groups.
Hive is 100% Military and the others are 75% Military, 25% Economy.

**Level 2 (china tech) are neutral to all (like warpism) but are Military 25%, Economy 75% to show the stabilization of their nation and the turn to their economy.
 
Mr. Capiatlist said:
While we debate the map, I'll keep coming up with ideas for everything else that makes the game run.

Right now, techs and religion:

Techs:
Orthodox -> Humanoid (I don't understand it, in every Sci-fi man is ahead of most, but still behind) (This is the over-all majority of nations in this mod)

Latin -> Warp (The title is from WH40k, but it represents those with a higher intelligence then just physics)

Muslim -> Looters (These people are ahead of lesser beings but usually get their technology from looting from higher beings)

China -> Developing nation lv 2*
Exotic -> Developing nation lv 1*

* My plan (really idea) for China and Exotic is that races of these kinds can evolve into the other types. After reaching a certain size or tech level, they will get an event that will upgrade them from Exotic to China. After more developement, they will get a three choice event. Selecting to become "balanced" will move them to orthodox, selecting to "study the warp" will move them to latin but they will loose units, and military research. Selecting to become a military horde will move them to muslim and give them military research at the expense of their economic research; they will also reseave some units.
Click to expand...

Wouldn't the fact that humans are behind be better represented through tech levels rather than tech groups? One of those age-old sci-fi cliches is the adaptability and creativity of humanity. Might that not be well represented by having Humans at a low tech level but with a high tech group?

I (really) like your idea about progression from the exotic techgroup upwards, though I don't think it should be as easy as jumping straight from China to Latin. What I would prefer is to place FTL technology at a certain tech level, and have an event granting the orthodox level at that point. I'd also include a rare random event whereby the natives discover an FTL ship crashed on one of their solar system's planets, and are able to scavenge FTL technology from it (giving them the looter techgroup).

On that note, it might be a good idea to have extra random events for the looter group that give them boosts for stealing technologies from other advanced civilisations (and we could make the events boosting military technologies more common during war, as the looters capture enemy engineers and scientists and reverse engineer scavenged technology).

<snip new religions>
Click to expand...

My primary concern with this is the fact that you've limited Reformed to the Latin group means that we have to limit Catholic and Protestant so as well. Also, a lot of spaces there are used for natives.

I actually think we'd be better off using Religion to represent Social Structure entirely.

Thus, my ideas on this front:
Catholic -> Empire (something like The Empire in Star Wars)
CRC -> Emperor Worship (I liked your idea here, but think it better applied to the counter-reformed version, such that the Emperor worshippers can bring those states who have rejected the divine rule of their god can be brought into line)
Protestant -> House Rule (The state is ruled by an Emperor and Aristocratic Houses, ala Dune)
Reformed -> Republic (something like the Old Republic in Star Wars)
Orthodox -> Junta (Not necessarily non-religious; religion might play a major part in the state, but the state is ultimately ruled either by military personell, or the warrior caste determine the rulers, as in Starship Troopers, where only soldiers can vote)
Sunni -> Federation (a quasi-communist multicultural state that places the highest possible value on equality, like its namesake)
Shi'ite -> Dominion (also like its namesake, a quasi-nazi state in which one race rules over all other races 'for their own good'. Federations and Dominions thus get CBs on each other)
Hindu -> Theocracy (self-explanatory)
Buddhist -> Hive (like you suggested)
Confucian -> Confederation (A loose commonwealth of independent states, like a republic but much less centralised, more likely for small or primitive states)
Pagan -> Anarchy (a breakdown in central authority in a province or state that makes that area particularly prone to domination by an outside power, i.e. it's possible to annex a country in anarchy in a single war)

<snip religion effects>
Click to expand...

Err...How exactly do you plan to model this? I see nothing in the religion.csv about which religion another religion likes. As far as I know, the only good way in EU2 to represent one religion's feelings towards another is through Counter Reformed Catholicism, Sunni Islam, and Shi'a Islam all of which have CBs on other opposed religions.
 
I thought the ai was instructed to kinda like or dislike certain religions, or maybe I'm wrong. My example is I see very few Catholic-Islam allainces...

When I said "Humanoid," I mean it the way that humans are not as refined as races such as the Eldar in WH40k, they learn quickly, but don't make huge leaps at a time. But this is just the beginnign phases. Right now, let us worry about teaching me how to mod the map, and then making a workable map. Three people will do it faster than one, pluss the galaxies will be much more interesting if different people make them... :cool:
 
I think the reason you don't find Catholic-Islamic alliances is that Catholic and Islamic nations generally don't have provinces with each others' religions in them, and thus will tend to set their tolerance sliders for the other nation's religion to its lowest level.

But yes, we should probably concentrate on the map first. After all, there wont be much point in working all this out if we have no map to build it on.
Using MKJ's map as a basis for the size our map would be (though I've no idea what size a map can be, so it might be possible to make it bigger), we can easily fit in two galaxies (the Milky Way and Andromeda) that could fit about three vanilla-map Africas in them (the galaxies would be about 3800 pixels across when fully zoomed in), another (Triangulum) about 2/3rds that size, plenty of Satellite galaxies (of which the Milky Way and Andromeda have lots), and still have tons of space to portray the huge distance between them! :)
 
We need to come up with a way were going to shade the planets because EU2 shading would look funny in space
 
Mezzo said:
We need to come up with a way were going to shade the planets because EU2 shading would look funny in space
Click to expand...
Only shade the exterior edges of planets, and then not at all in space (since space is black).

I like the two galaxy idea with mini-galaxies.... it will also help even the spaces out. Just put one where south America would be and the other where Siberia would be, then add smaller galaxies that are far enough to stop mass exploration by smaller, un-developed nation...

Also, with the developing nations idea,

All developed nations need to start at level 12 , the undeveloped nations will start at 0, 0-6 is for stage one and each level will cost 10-50 points (because the exotic tech will raise it up and slow progress to a norm), 7-12 is for china tech and will cost between 40 and 100 points for the same reason...
 
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I thought I might start work on the city graphics (the ones in the side-bar), any suggestions as to what buildings should correspond to? Also, should we have the coastal graphic? I mean, all planets are coastal.
So:
Harbour=Space port (Just a landing strip)?
Shipyard=Space centre (landing strip, rocket launch facility etc.)?
Church=Palace/Administrative centre?
City walls=Missile defence (rocket launchers, etc.)?
Also, what about the gravel roads, which in standard EU2 are gravel, should they become tarmac?
 
King of Minors said:
I thought I might start work on the city graphics (the ones in the side-bar), any suggestions as to what buildings should correspond to? Also, should we have the coastal graphic? I mean, all planets are coastal.
So:
Harbour=Space port (Just a landing strip)?
Shipyard=Space centre (landing strip, rocket launch facility etc.)?
Church=Palace/Administrative centre?
City walls=Missile defence (rocket launchers, etc.)?
Also, what about the gravel roads, which in standard EU2 are gravel, should they become tarmac?
Click to expand...
Drop the costal graphic, because all provs will be coastal (like you said). The space port should be more like something out of star wars (I have a dreamah!) where ships will land through a hole in the roof (very basic). The space center should be something more sophisticated with lights and big things to attach to orbiting ships....

Those were all good ideas and I can't wait to see them.


How will we divide the provs now that I know I over-estemated by 180?

200 deep-space provs and 940 provs (including shallow space provs) per galaxy?
 
I think we're going to need about 80 deep space provinces bordering each galaxy, though we could probably get by with less than that. If we assume 55, then two galaxies makes 110 provinces, leaving us with 90 to place between the galaxies and around the miniature ones.

The provinces most likely aren't going to all be coastal (since shallow space provinces will technically be land rather than coast, and provinces on planets will normally be surrounded entirely by shallow space), but the difference between shallow and deep space isn't something we could represent on a city screen, I think, other than the inclusion of deep-space shipbuilding facilities, we can use the same inage for both kinds of province.

Assuming we go with the shallow/deep space division, I'd say the Barracks and Conscription centres should be the Spaceport and Space Centre, and for Ports and Shipyards, maybe something like a "Galaxy port" and "Galactic dock"?
 
No, keep the barracks a barracks, and the consript center just becomes a fortress, but their should be a difference between normal space and deep space construction (seeing as ships will be for deep space), Make part of the non-costal picture a run-way strip or space-port that way it won't need representation on the map.

All planets should look like they are non-coastal, but coastal planets have the option to build the deep-space port, then later the obital station, both will be represented by a sprite next to the prov. I think all provs that could be coastal, should be such.

I, unfortunetally, have yet to get the map editor working. (Inferis can't just put a "browse for" button ;) ) O woe is me. :eek:o

What do I put in the cpromt when I want to create a totally new map? Or is there a way I can do it without the mextract?
 
Mr. Capiatlist said:
What do I put in the cpromt when I want to create a totally new map? Or is there a way I can do it without the mextract?
Click to expand...

It's a long time ago, but I think you need to put in "blank" in some form.


Regarding the coastal-non coastal thing, the non-coastal provinces won't have the dock, so therefore the barracks need to be some type of spaceport if the intra-galactic forces are to be ships. Another thing that could be possible would be to move the placement of the barrack on the city screen (Yes, it is possible), and then have the dock and barracks in one area, so in a "non-coastal" province there would only be a simple runway (the barracks) perhaps, and then in a coastal province there would be a rocket tower (The dock.) (you know, the ones rockets are set against).

Also, I just had an idea. What about we move everything on the city screen downwards, and then have the top bit of it as a sky? Then the dock (when upgraded to a shipyard) could turn into a space station in the sky. :cool:
 
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