Thanks.
(I need to get around to doing my ACA ballot! Sorry, but I do have an upload schedule...)
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(I need to get around to doing my ACA ballot! Sorry, but I do have an upload schedule...)
Conquerors (History Book)
“The Attack on Valois was well-planned. For all of his flaws, Count Herbert was not an idiot - he knew how to time his attacks. His first move came after he had assured either the aid or the neutrality of his immediate neighbor in Clermont, and no one else was in any position to intervene. Count Herbert waited until all of the duchies of the West Francian kingdom were distracted before he struck.
The greatest distraction was the War of the French Succession. The great Count attacked immediately after the Capets began squabbling amongst themselves. The King of France was at war with his relative, the Duke of Burgundy, and all of the dukes were preoccupied by that conflict. It wasn’t exactly something a major landowner in the realm could afford to ignore.
None of the counts involved in the First Carolingian Reclamation were major landholders in the realm. None of them commanded a lot of influence, despite what would happen later. In the late 11th century AD, there was little reason to believe that the Carolingians were anything other than a dead dynasty. Most of the crowned heads of Europe believed that their time had come and gone. Very few saw Count Herbert as relevant to the politics of the continent, and, for the most part, they were right. The resurgence of the Carolingians required skillful political and diplomatic maneuvering by the dynasty, but it also relied on luck a lot. The truest conquerors never relied on luck at all, only on skill. Very few of them existed at all - luck often decided who was relevant and who was ignored. It also often decided who was remembered and who was forgotten. Even so, enough skill could override luck… and the Carolingians weren’t free from that tendency, either. I wouldn’t dream of excluding the most famous dynasty in history from a book on conquerors.” - Conquerors of the World: A Guide to the Greatest Men on Earth
The greatest distraction was the War of the French Succession. The great Count attacked immediately after the Capets began squabbling amongst themselves. The King of France was at war with his relative, the Duke of Burgundy, and all of the dukes were preoccupied by that conflict. It wasn’t exactly something a major landowner in the realm could afford to ignore.
None of the counts involved in the First Carolingian Reclamation were major landholders in the realm. None of them commanded a lot of influence, despite what would happen later. In the late 11th century AD, there was little reason to believe that the Carolingians were anything other than a dead dynasty. Most of the crowned heads of Europe believed that their time had come and gone. Very few saw Count Herbert as relevant to the politics of the continent, and, for the most part, they were right. The resurgence of the Carolingians required skillful political and diplomatic maneuvering by the dynasty, but it also relied on luck a lot. The truest conquerors never relied on luck at all, only on skill. Very few of them existed at all - luck often decided who was relevant and who was ignored. It also often decided who was remembered and who was forgotten. Even so, enough skill could override luck… and the Carolingians weren’t free from that tendency, either. I wouldn’t dream of excluding the most famous dynasty in history from a book on conquerors.” - Conquerors of the World: A Guide to the Greatest Men on Earth
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Absolutely. I was planning to wait to declare war longer, but then the Capets got distracted with a struggle over their throne. I thought the moment was opportune, then.
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Politics At A Feast (Narrative)
“Although Herbert of Vermandois spent most of the feast talking to Renaud of Clermont, he did attempt to forge further diplomatic ties there. He liked Renaud, but he was also aware of how limited his new friend’s influence was. While he would still count the night as a success for his new friendship alone, he still wanted to do more.
Luck was on his side that night, it seemed. After a few hours, a man approached the two counts, and Herbert recognized him as a Capet. This alone made him weary, and his suspicions were not aided by the fact that the man approached him and Renaud specifically. Herbert was tempted to switch seats right then, but Renaud changed his mind, reasoning that a man of such influence wouldn’t approach two lowly counts without a reason. This logic convinced the Count of Vermandois, who desperately wanted to destabilize the reigning Capet regime.
The Capet attempted to begin the conversation with small talk, but neither count wanted to bother with such trivialities. In unison, they told him to get to the point, and he conceded.
His first words were shocking. 'My father is not a fit monarch of this realm. He allowed Duke William’s mad scheme to jeopardize our relations with our neighbor across the Channel, and I doubt that he cares much for the realm’s peace. He must be deposed for the good of all of the Frankish people.'
Count Herbert was, naturally, skeptical. 'King Philippe is weak, sure, but I don’t see why we should care. After all, we are his vassals, and we stand to benefit from his weakness.'
'Besides,' Count Renaud chimed in. 'Who would replace him? You? Will not your Burgundian lands tempt you to a war with His Imperial Majesty to our east? Why should our men die for your own personal ambitions?'
The Capet smiled. 'Yes, but I will put the well-being of the realm in front of my personal desires. Even if I didn’t, my enthronement would benefit you two personally. There’s bound to be some dukes who will side with my father… and I will be obliged to punish them. If either of you supports me, I might give you their titles and make them serve you…'
Count Herbert could admit that the offer was very, very tempting. Perhaps he would have even accepted it in another life, but one thing stayed his hand. 'What happens if we lose? Each of us is a mere count, and rebellion would be an acceptable justification to strip us of even that dignity. I will not end my family’s legacy on the off-chance that an internal divide within their usurpers could benefit me. No.'
Count Renaud nodded in agreement.
That should’ve been the end of the matter, but the Capetian Duke was relentless. He begged them to reconsider and refused to leave. Neither count said anything about it once he finally shut up. If he wanted to look suspicious, they weren’t going to stop him.
Naturally, the king took notice. He sent a page to order his son to return to the head of the table, but the Duke of Burgundy refused. This angered the king enough that he sent a small band of knights to bring the man to the king by force. A short fight resulted, but the Duke was no match for a group of knights, so he had to move. A rebellion was averted but only for the moment.
Neither count did anything to aid their unwanted visitor, but they also refused to tell the knights of the duke’s plans. Instead, they continued talking to each other about their personal interests as if nothing was happening right next to them.” - The Strange Friendship of Renaud of Clermont and Herbert of Vermandois
Luck was on his side that night, it seemed. After a few hours, a man approached the two counts, and Herbert recognized him as a Capet. This alone made him weary, and his suspicions were not aided by the fact that the man approached him and Renaud specifically. Herbert was tempted to switch seats right then, but Renaud changed his mind, reasoning that a man of such influence wouldn’t approach two lowly counts without a reason. This logic convinced the Count of Vermandois, who desperately wanted to destabilize the reigning Capet regime.
The Capet attempted to begin the conversation with small talk, but neither count wanted to bother with such trivialities. In unison, they told him to get to the point, and he conceded.
His first words were shocking. 'My father is not a fit monarch of this realm. He allowed Duke William’s mad scheme to jeopardize our relations with our neighbor across the Channel, and I doubt that he cares much for the realm’s peace. He must be deposed for the good of all of the Frankish people.'
Count Herbert was, naturally, skeptical. 'King Philippe is weak, sure, but I don’t see why we should care. After all, we are his vassals, and we stand to benefit from his weakness.'
'Besides,' Count Renaud chimed in. 'Who would replace him? You? Will not your Burgundian lands tempt you to a war with His Imperial Majesty to our east? Why should our men die for your own personal ambitions?'
The Capet smiled. 'Yes, but I will put the well-being of the realm in front of my personal desires. Even if I didn’t, my enthronement would benefit you two personally. There’s bound to be some dukes who will side with my father… and I will be obliged to punish them. If either of you supports me, I might give you their titles and make them serve you…'
Count Herbert could admit that the offer was very, very tempting. Perhaps he would have even accepted it in another life, but one thing stayed his hand. 'What happens if we lose? Each of us is a mere count, and rebellion would be an acceptable justification to strip us of even that dignity. I will not end my family’s legacy on the off-chance that an internal divide within their usurpers could benefit me. No.'
Count Renaud nodded in agreement.
That should’ve been the end of the matter, but the Capetian Duke was relentless. He begged them to reconsider and refused to leave. Neither count said anything about it once he finally shut up. If he wanted to look suspicious, they weren’t going to stop him.
Naturally, the king took notice. He sent a page to order his son to return to the head of the table, but the Duke of Burgundy refused. This angered the king enough that he sent a small band of knights to bring the man to the king by force. A short fight resulted, but the Duke was no match for a group of knights, so he had to move. A rebellion was averted but only for the moment.
Neither count did anything to aid their unwanted visitor, but they also refused to tell the knights of the duke’s plans. Instead, they continued talking to each other about their personal interests as if nothing was happening right next to them.” - The Strange Friendship of Renaud of Clermont and Herbert of Vermandois
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Count Herbert needs to keep an eye on the true goal. A land grab would be nice, but priority #1 must be a non-lunatic SON. Where is Clermont in relation to Vermandois? Thanks
Count Herbert isn't really thinking about succession right now. We'll see how long that lasts.
Clermont is right next to Vermandois (and Valois, for that matter).
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Count Herbert is right that caution should take precedence, but being among the first supporters of an usurper King could certainly catapult the Count into a role of prominence at his side. It was a good choice that they did not out the Duke as a traitor, perhaps if he gains more supporters Herbert and Renaud could join in, but doing so at a later date would probably earn them little favor, especially after what just happened.
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That's true, but it could also screw him over if he loses. His dynasty's already been overthrown by the Capetians in France - he thinks that eliminating their last vestiges would be something that would appeal to the new ruling dynasty. It's paranoia...
Of course, if he does succeed... that might be an issue, but it probably won't mean a loss of the County of Vermandois.
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Friendship and Reputation (Narrative)
“After the feast, the two counts continued to communicate by using letters. They spoke of the realm’s problems and discussed a variety of topics - from politics to simpler things like food, love, and torture techniques. Neither count asked about the personal ambitions of the other. Some things were best kept secret.
These letters made Count Herbert feel like a close friend to his neighbor, so, when he heard about how a mayor within his county was spewing insults about Count Renaud, his reaction was predictable. At first, he wanted to execute the mayor, but his wife counseled him against this action. She noted that such an act could harm his reputation among the few vassals that he had. Worse, it could also harm his reputation among the French nobility as a whole. Count Herbert’s anger quickly cooled, but he still despised the insult to his friend.
He decided that this mayor must have heard untrue rumors. It was his duty as a friend to disprove these rumors… so he wrote back to the mayor. The letter was not as polite as it could have been, but then, the Count of Vermandois was still pissed about the slandering of his friend - he wasn’t obligated to be polite.
A response quickly came, inviting Count Herbert to visit the mayor’s city in person to discuss… “the possible spreading of lies”. While Count Herbert was initially worried by this invitation, believing that the mayor had ulterior motives such as assassinating his liege, he agreed to go anyway. He still made absolutely certain that he was safe by bringing guards - it also paid to be prepared for the worst.
The conversation was very productive. The mayor told Count Herbert who had initially implied that Count Renaud was untrustworthy and even gave the man to the Count for judgement. Count Herbert demanded to know why the mayor had believed these rumors, and the man admitted that he believed that the two counts were enemies, being neighboring counts and knowing of Count Herbert’s ambition to return the Karlings to glory.
Count Herbert quickly impressed upon the mayor the need to keep his plans secret and privately vowed to increase secrecy. It would not do for many people to know his plans - he was well aware of how easy it was to gain information from someone.
With the issue resolved, Count Herbert left the city in good spirits with his new prisoner. He sent another letter to Count Renaud shortly thereafter, telling him of the incident and even offering to send the slanderer to the Count of Clermont for punishment. Count Renaud was flattered by Count Herbert’s defense of him, and the incident caused the two men to become closer.
The man who had slandered Count Renaud was sent to Clermont, where Count Renaud decided against killing him. Instead, he made the man search for people who made up rumors (especially rumors about him) and report them to him… and made him shovel cow manure until he learned not to insult his betters. Count Herbert thought that punishment was a tad sadistic, but he said nothing. Everyone had their quirks - in the privacy of his own mind, he acknowledged that he might be a little proud - and a little overprotective.” - The Strange Friendship of Renaud of Clermont and Herbert of Vermandois
Oh, right. This is mildly interactive, and that means that readAARs can influence the narrative. You represent general opinion of the Karling family, and the Counts reserve the right to ignore your advice. That being said, the vote is about what Count Herbert should do after the Valois War. It is open until June 4, 2023. The options are:
A. Who cares about the Count's personal friendships? Attack Clermont! (Betrayal Arc... or perhaps a friendship against all odds arc)
B. We'll never reclaim our former glory by attacking mere counties. Attack Flanders you coward! (Risk Arc - either the beginnings of a Glory Arc or an Icarus Arc)
C. I'm pretty sure we've already technically broken the feudal contract. Maybe keeping a low profile is a good idea? (Housekeeping Arc)
These letters made Count Herbert feel like a close friend to his neighbor, so, when he heard about how a mayor within his county was spewing insults about Count Renaud, his reaction was predictable. At first, he wanted to execute the mayor, but his wife counseled him against this action. She noted that such an act could harm his reputation among the few vassals that he had. Worse, it could also harm his reputation among the French nobility as a whole. Count Herbert’s anger quickly cooled, but he still despised the insult to his friend.
He decided that this mayor must have heard untrue rumors. It was his duty as a friend to disprove these rumors… so he wrote back to the mayor. The letter was not as polite as it could have been, but then, the Count of Vermandois was still pissed about the slandering of his friend - he wasn’t obligated to be polite.
A response quickly came, inviting Count Herbert to visit the mayor’s city in person to discuss… “the possible spreading of lies”. While Count Herbert was initially worried by this invitation, believing that the mayor had ulterior motives such as assassinating his liege, he agreed to go anyway. He still made absolutely certain that he was safe by bringing guards - it also paid to be prepared for the worst.
The conversation was very productive. The mayor told Count Herbert who had initially implied that Count Renaud was untrustworthy and even gave the man to the Count for judgement. Count Herbert demanded to know why the mayor had believed these rumors, and the man admitted that he believed that the two counts were enemies, being neighboring counts and knowing of Count Herbert’s ambition to return the Karlings to glory.
Count Herbert quickly impressed upon the mayor the need to keep his plans secret and privately vowed to increase secrecy. It would not do for many people to know his plans - he was well aware of how easy it was to gain information from someone.
With the issue resolved, Count Herbert left the city in good spirits with his new prisoner. He sent another letter to Count Renaud shortly thereafter, telling him of the incident and even offering to send the slanderer to the Count of Clermont for punishment. Count Renaud was flattered by Count Herbert’s defense of him, and the incident caused the two men to become closer.
The man who had slandered Count Renaud was sent to Clermont, where Count Renaud decided against killing him. Instead, he made the man search for people who made up rumors (especially rumors about him) and report them to him… and made him shovel cow manure until he learned not to insult his betters. Count Herbert thought that punishment was a tad sadistic, but he said nothing. Everyone had their quirks - in the privacy of his own mind, he acknowledged that he might be a little proud - and a little overprotective.” - The Strange Friendship of Renaud of Clermont and Herbert of Vermandois
Oh, right. This is mildly interactive, and that means that readAARs can influence the narrative. You represent general opinion of the Karling family, and the Counts reserve the right to ignore your advice. That being said, the vote is about what Count Herbert should do after the Valois War. It is open until June 4, 2023. The options are:
A. Who cares about the Count's personal friendships? Attack Clermont! (Betrayal Arc... or perhaps a friendship against all odds arc)
B. We'll never reclaim our former glory by attacking mere counties. Attack Flanders you coward! (Risk Arc - either the beginnings of a Glory Arc or an Icarus Arc)
C. I'm pretty sure we've already technically broken the feudal contract. Maybe keeping a low profile is a good idea? (Housekeeping Arc)
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This made me chuckle a bit, especially after he saw the man's punishment as sadistic later on. Sure, murder is fine, but shoveling manure? The humanity!
And of course, wifey didn't counsel against it because murder was wrong, or because the Count could put his soul at peril, no, her worries were about public opinion. What a power couple, the epitome of Frankish nobility. As for the interactive bit... I wouldn't want the friendship with Renaud to end, but I also have a soft spot for the House of Flanders due to the story of its founding with Baldwin I and Princess Judith... My heart tells me the Housekeeping Arc would be best, but I fear doing so may lead to no Carolingian Rebirth.
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Option D. Have your loyal stooge friend invite the duke to an inn for lunch. Clermont and the mayor make wonderful scapegoats if anybody thinks that it anything but it a tragic accident. Plan fertilize the roses. Thanks for an update.
This made me chuckle a bit, especially after he saw the man's punishment as sadistic later on. Sure, murder is fine, but shoveling manure? The humanity!
As for the interactive bit... I wouldn't want the friendship with Renaud to end, but I also have a soft spot for the House of Flanders due to the story of its founding with Baldwin I and Princess Judith... My heart tells me the Housekeeping Arc would be best, but I fear doing so may lead to no Carolingian Rebirth.
It's not like Count Herbert cares much about morality - he's a noble in Medieval France! As long as no one knows about his sins, he's fine!
He's also not really judging his friend. One of the things that they discussed was torture techniques, after all.
For the record, this is the vote for what to do immediately after the Valois War. Herbert still has the rebirth on his mind - it'll just be delayed a little if he focuses on housekeeping. Also, housekeeping means a smaller chance of the dynasty suddenly dying out from lack of heirs later.
This is hilarious. Of course, it wasn't an option... but I could do it while getting the Carolingian house in order...
Sadly, I need an A/B/C vote to count a vote, but I don't want to make assumptions...
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Option C since we can not make use of the manure at an inn. I am in favor of little Karlings. What is the heir status?
Your choice has been noted. Count Herbert has a son named Eudes at the moment - and a daughter (but the daughter's in the Papal States right now)
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A Peaceful Period (Narrative)
"The incident with the mayor made the friendship between the two counts closer, and they continued to exchange letters, but nothing truly significant happened for a couple of months. The King of France held no feasts, and there was no conflict between nobles. It was a peaceful time, and Count Herbert despised it - both because of how little was happening and how banal it made his correspondence with his friend.
It was not long before they turned to discussing topics unrelated to current events - specifically, philosophy. It was Count Herbert who first broached the topic, asking concerning religious questions. He questioned the benevolence of a deity that allowed his family to be cast from so many thrones. Count Renaud’s response was shocking - he agreed with some of the Karling’s doubts. He refused to comment on the Capetian Usurpation, but he noted many other signs of a cruel deity - the constant warfare between Christian realms and the success of the Muslims in seizing control over such a large empire.
They continued discussing the topic for a long while and eventually decided that no mortal could know the mind of God, so his requests should not matter on the material plane. Count Renaud even backed up this decision with scriptural passages, which Count Herbert had to refrain from sending to the Pope as revenge for taking his daughter without giving anything back (and he only succeeded in doing that by reminding himself that the guardianship situation was temporary and would get him into the good graces of the Church).
It was with this in mind that Count Herbert finally opened up about his plans to regain his family’s lost glory to his friend. He promised not to attack his friend militarily if Count Renaud didn’t oppose him with an army and wrote of his desire to attack Valois and bring that county under his control.
Count Renaud was surprisingly receptive to this plan and mentioned nothing about how it was technically illegal. He did, however, request to meet in person, reasoning that their correspondence could be intercepted by anyone. He noted that the King of France getting his hands on the letters would be a disaster for both parties that could easily end in execution.
Count Herbert’s initial instinct was to accept the offer of a meeting immediately and not think on it further, but his brother, Eudes, had managed to get his hands on the letter and told him that he might want to include the entire family in decisions that affected all of them, lest… the Karlings change their mind about acknowledging him as their head.
Count Herbert got the message - the threat, really - loud and clear. Making impulsive decisions on behalf of his county might have… unfortunate consequences. For a brief moment, he considered ignoring his brother anyway since he was the head of the family, but his common sense prevailed - if his brother was being so flagrant in his threat, then he definitely thought that he could defeat his liege. Count Herbert worried about being killed - or, worse, made into a puppet. That was why he called the Karlings to a meeting in Saint Quentin to discuss his relations with the Count of Clermont.” - The Strange Friendship of Renaud of Clermont and Herbert of Vermandois
Those letters might come up again later. The logic is that Herbert's Arrogant and Renaud's Sadistic.
Also, the vote is still open (until next Sunday). We only have one vote so far, so Option C is currently winning. A reminder that the options were:
A. Who cares about the Count's personal friendships? Attack Clermont! (Betrayal Arc... or perhaps a friendship against all odds arc)
B. We'll never reclaim our former glory by attacking mere counties. Attack Flanders you coward! (Risk Arc - either the beginnings of a Glory Arc or an Icarus Arc)
C. I'm pretty sure we've already technically broken the feudal contract. Maybe keeping a low profile is a good idea? (Housekeeping Arc)
It was not long before they turned to discussing topics unrelated to current events - specifically, philosophy. It was Count Herbert who first broached the topic, asking concerning religious questions. He questioned the benevolence of a deity that allowed his family to be cast from so many thrones. Count Renaud’s response was shocking - he agreed with some of the Karling’s doubts. He refused to comment on the Capetian Usurpation, but he noted many other signs of a cruel deity - the constant warfare between Christian realms and the success of the Muslims in seizing control over such a large empire.
They continued discussing the topic for a long while and eventually decided that no mortal could know the mind of God, so his requests should not matter on the material plane. Count Renaud even backed up this decision with scriptural passages, which Count Herbert had to refrain from sending to the Pope as revenge for taking his daughter without giving anything back (and he only succeeded in doing that by reminding himself that the guardianship situation was temporary and would get him into the good graces of the Church).
It was with this in mind that Count Herbert finally opened up about his plans to regain his family’s lost glory to his friend. He promised not to attack his friend militarily if Count Renaud didn’t oppose him with an army and wrote of his desire to attack Valois and bring that county under his control.
Count Renaud was surprisingly receptive to this plan and mentioned nothing about how it was technically illegal. He did, however, request to meet in person, reasoning that their correspondence could be intercepted by anyone. He noted that the King of France getting his hands on the letters would be a disaster for both parties that could easily end in execution.
Count Herbert’s initial instinct was to accept the offer of a meeting immediately and not think on it further, but his brother, Eudes, had managed to get his hands on the letter and told him that he might want to include the entire family in decisions that affected all of them, lest… the Karlings change their mind about acknowledging him as their head.
Count Herbert got the message - the threat, really - loud and clear. Making impulsive decisions on behalf of his county might have… unfortunate consequences. For a brief moment, he considered ignoring his brother anyway since he was the head of the family, but his common sense prevailed - if his brother was being so flagrant in his threat, then he definitely thought that he could defeat his liege. Count Herbert worried about being killed - or, worse, made into a puppet. That was why he called the Karlings to a meeting in Saint Quentin to discuss his relations with the Count of Clermont.” - The Strange Friendship of Renaud of Clermont and Herbert of Vermandois
Those letters might come up again later. The logic is that Herbert's Arrogant and Renaud's Sadistic.
Also, the vote is still open (until next Sunday). We only have one vote so far, so Option C is currently winning. A reminder that the options were:
A. Who cares about the Count's personal friendships? Attack Clermont! (Betrayal Arc... or perhaps a friendship against all odds arc)
B. We'll never reclaim our former glory by attacking mere counties. Attack Flanders you coward! (Risk Arc - either the beginnings of a Glory Arc or an Icarus Arc)
C. I'm pretty sure we've already technically broken the feudal contract. Maybe keeping a low profile is a good idea? (Housekeeping Arc)
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Is Eudes of a sound mind? The Last Karling Let's Play that I viewed (CK2); started with a disinherited crazy brother.
I'm not actually sure. I don't think so, though - he's a knight.
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Legend and Precedent (Narrative)
“The meeting went wrong almost immediately. The Karlings were hardly a united clan, and they all had different ideas about the future of their dynasty. While all Karlings wanted a renaissance of power, they differed on how this might be achieved. Count Herbert, obviously, favored a combination of diplomacy and warfare that was subtle and would not draw a great amount of attention to their actions. Eudes heavily disagreed - he thought that the Count’s plan would be far too slow. Instead, he advocated for a policy of brazen and risky attacks on other counties and even duchies to establish a powerbase.
The two men argued over this for hours, each reiterating their points in increasingly repetitive ways. Tempers ran high, and both got increasingly angry. Count Herbert channeled his anger by insulting his sibling, which did nothing to help. Eudes’s anger was far more physical, and he began breaking things - the table, the chairs, and a few of the pieces of art that decorated their hall in Saint Quentin.
It was at that point that everybody else simply left the hall. Neither man even noticed for some time, as both were far too caught up in their useless argument, which had moved on to increasingly absurd personal attacks and threats by now (Eudes threatened to have his namesake kill Herbert, and Count Herbert threatened to exile his brother).
In the end, both stormed out of the room, pissed at one another and in a mood to… eliminate the threat to their authority.
The tensions that emerged from that meeting would echo down the ages, at least according to legend. The issue, of course, is that it isn’t even so much as mentioned in any contemporary texts - Eudes said nothing about it publicly, and Count Herbert doesn’t mention it in any of his letters, not even the ones to Count Renaud.
Of course, something akin to this meeting might very well have occurred. Count Herbert’s letters to Count Renaud do mention a meeting among the Karlings around this time period, but there is no mention of extreme tensions or of broken objects. Furthermore, the end result seems to have been much more mundane and boring than the legend has it - apparently, an agreement was reached that Count Herbert could meet with his friend and discuss alliances.
No one knows exactly how the rumor began, either, which only adds to the mystery - and to the dissonance. The earliest attestations are spread out across the continent and from a couple decades after the great Carolingians had reclaimed their glory. They were from Italy and Germany, although, strangely enough, they weren’t from France itself. Despite this, random nobles would occasionally claim descent from Eudes and make plays for the throne based on the legend… so it probably existed orally before our earliest written sources.” - Of Historical Legends And Their Influence
The vote is still going on! It ends next Sunday. As a reminder, the options were:
A. Who cares about the Count's personal friendships? Attack Clermont! (Betrayal Arc... or perhaps a friendship against all odds arc)
B. We'll never reclaim our former glory by attacking mere counties. Attack Flanders you coward! (Risk Arc - either the beginnings of a Glory Arc or an Icarus Arc)
C. I'm pretty sure we've already technically broken the feudal contract. Maybe keeping a low profile is a good idea? (Housekeeping Arc)
And Option C is currently winning, with one vote.
The two men argued over this for hours, each reiterating their points in increasingly repetitive ways. Tempers ran high, and both got increasingly angry. Count Herbert channeled his anger by insulting his sibling, which did nothing to help. Eudes’s anger was far more physical, and he began breaking things - the table, the chairs, and a few of the pieces of art that decorated their hall in Saint Quentin.
It was at that point that everybody else simply left the hall. Neither man even noticed for some time, as both were far too caught up in their useless argument, which had moved on to increasingly absurd personal attacks and threats by now (Eudes threatened to have his namesake kill Herbert, and Count Herbert threatened to exile his brother).
In the end, both stormed out of the room, pissed at one another and in a mood to… eliminate the threat to their authority.
The tensions that emerged from that meeting would echo down the ages, at least according to legend. The issue, of course, is that it isn’t even so much as mentioned in any contemporary texts - Eudes said nothing about it publicly, and Count Herbert doesn’t mention it in any of his letters, not even the ones to Count Renaud.
Of course, something akin to this meeting might very well have occurred. Count Herbert’s letters to Count Renaud do mention a meeting among the Karlings around this time period, but there is no mention of extreme tensions or of broken objects. Furthermore, the end result seems to have been much more mundane and boring than the legend has it - apparently, an agreement was reached that Count Herbert could meet with his friend and discuss alliances.
No one knows exactly how the rumor began, either, which only adds to the mystery - and to the dissonance. The earliest attestations are spread out across the continent and from a couple decades after the great Carolingians had reclaimed their glory. They were from Italy and Germany, although, strangely enough, they weren’t from France itself. Despite this, random nobles would occasionally claim descent from Eudes and make plays for the throne based on the legend… so it probably existed orally before our earliest written sources.” - Of Historical Legends And Their Influence
The vote is still going on! It ends next Sunday. As a reminder, the options were:
A. Who cares about the Count's personal friendships? Attack Clermont! (Betrayal Arc... or perhaps a friendship against all odds arc)
B. We'll never reclaim our former glory by attacking mere counties. Attack Flanders you coward! (Risk Arc - either the beginnings of a Glory Arc or an Icarus Arc)
C. I'm pretty sure we've already technically broken the feudal contract. Maybe keeping a low profile is a good idea? (Housekeeping Arc)
And Option C is currently winning, with one vote.
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Negotiations, Part 1 (Narrative)
“When Count Herbert finally reached Renaud’s abode, it was night. The sun had long since set, but a full moon illuminated the sky, which allowed him to find the place easily. Unfortunately, the time meant that there was nobody to greet him… and no one to welcome him in. Count Herbert was a proud man, but even he would not enter a noble’s home without permission. He knocked on the door, but it took a while for someone to answer the door. In the meantime, the count waited outside and watched the stars… considering how glorious it would be when his dynasty could name them.
Count Renaud answered the door personally, eager to greet his friend. They walked together into the house and made small talk, but neither was very focused on the conversation. Both men understood that the important talk would happen in the morning when they were both completely awake.
His friend led Count Herbert to a small bedroom, and the Karling crashed as soon as his head hit the carpet - before he even looked at the residence where he would be staying. His dreams at night matched his fantasies during the day - he dreamt of a renewal of his dynasty’s glory. At night, the details of that glory crystalized into a clearer vision, but the path toward that potential future remained a mystery. When he awoke, he remembered most of his dreams, but the knowledge quickly fled from his mind as the day wore on. Silently, he resolved to write down what his mind generated at night to preserve it after this visit was over.
Now, however, he had more pressing concerns - his meeting with his friend and the raw potential of a formal alliance lay before him. Only a fool would refuse to grasp it.
The meeting occurred over a small breakfast of porridge and beer. At first, the two men ate in silence, but Count Renaud quickly changed that. ‘So… you wished to speak of…’ He briefly paused, as if searching for the right words to say. ‘Formalizing our friendship?’
Count Herbert nodded. ‘Indeed. I thought that we could make our friendship a matter of official policy by forming an alliance between our counties. We would agree to aid each other in war and in peace, ensuring that neither of our houses would fall into a premature ruin.’
Count Renaud leaned forward. ‘Do you want an alliance between our counties or an alliance between our houses, my friend?’
‘Does it matter?’
‘Of course it does. Those are two very different things - one option is far broader than the other. If we ally our houses, then our destinies will be bound together. We will become members of one greater house that will have multiple branches to contribute to its glory. Opposing us will become far more difficult.’
Count Herbert admitted that sounded pretty tempting, but he was also suspicious. How did his friend benefit from this arrangement? He could see how he benefited easily enough - more aid for his pursuit of his dynasty’s lost glory - but what did Count Renaud get out of this? They were friends, sure, but that was a personal thing, not a dynastic one.
On the surface, this proposal seemed designed to benefit him, but that meant little. There was always a catch. Some things were too good to be true. He frowned, and he finally summed up his thoughts in a single question: ‘what do you get out of this?’
Count Renaud raised an eyebrow. ‘Ah, my friend, ever the cynic. I cannot deny that this deal will somewhat benefit me as well. I am but a small count whose dynasty has never known glory. This will grant me something that I’ve never truly known - prestige. Everybody remembers how your ancestors once united much of the old Roman Empire, and their memories are long. The mere association will make me more notable.’
Count Herbert blinked. That reasoning made sense, except there was still one minor problem… ‘Why do you want notoriety? The ignored counts can get away with far more than the big landholders in this kingdom. Our noble overlord sees the bigger landowners as more threatening to his authority.’
Count Renaud smiled. ‘You’re correct, of course, but that also means that we have no leverage.’
Count Herbert looked at him doubtfully, and the Count of Clermont quickly changed his phrasing. ‘Okay, so you might have leverage from your ancestry, but I don’t. Gaining notoriety will give me a voice in the wider affairs of this realm. I’m tired of being ignored by my so-called betters.’ He snorted. ‘As if they’re any better than me. They would tear apart this realm for so many petty reasons - pure spite, familial issues, and even vague and far-fetched chances at glory abroad.’
Count Herbert blinked - that was a very comprehensive list, but it contained a single glaring exception. ‘Not ambition?’
‘I said petty reasons. Ambitious men would tear the realm apart, but at least they would have a good reason to do so - the advancement of their dynasty. Ambition is what keeps this world interesting, my friend - never forget that. Besides, if I hated ambition, I hardly would have befriended you, would I?’
‘Perhaps not. Anyway, how shall we unite our houses, then? Marriage? Between who?’
Count Renaud smiled, which Count Herbert took as an affirmation of his theory. ‘Indeed. Marriage is a tie that binds. Sadly, I have no unmarried sons, and I lack daughters - but my household is far bigger than my immediate relatives. I have long found that knights are more loyal if you give them something… especially a name. I assume that you do have female relatives? If not… we might have a problem.’
Count Herbert simply sighed. This might be a long day.” - The Strange Friendship of Renaud of Clermont and Herbert of Vermandois
The vote is still going on! It ends this Sunday. As a reminder, the options were:
A. Who cares about the Count's personal friendships? Attack Clermont! (Betrayal Arc... or perhaps a friendship against all odds arc)
B. We'll never reclaim our former glory by attacking mere counties. Attack Flanders you coward! (Risk Arc - either the beginnings of a Glory Arc or an Icarus Arc)
C. I'm pretty sure we've already technically broken the feudal contract. Maybe keeping a low profile is a good idea? (Housekeeping Arc)
And Option C is currently winning, with one vote.
Thanks for the love @Midnite Duke, by the way.
Count Renaud answered the door personally, eager to greet his friend. They walked together into the house and made small talk, but neither was very focused on the conversation. Both men understood that the important talk would happen in the morning when they were both completely awake.
His friend led Count Herbert to a small bedroom, and the Karling crashed as soon as his head hit the carpet - before he even looked at the residence where he would be staying. His dreams at night matched his fantasies during the day - he dreamt of a renewal of his dynasty’s glory. At night, the details of that glory crystalized into a clearer vision, but the path toward that potential future remained a mystery. When he awoke, he remembered most of his dreams, but the knowledge quickly fled from his mind as the day wore on. Silently, he resolved to write down what his mind generated at night to preserve it after this visit was over.
Now, however, he had more pressing concerns - his meeting with his friend and the raw potential of a formal alliance lay before him. Only a fool would refuse to grasp it.
The meeting occurred over a small breakfast of porridge and beer. At first, the two men ate in silence, but Count Renaud quickly changed that. ‘So… you wished to speak of…’ He briefly paused, as if searching for the right words to say. ‘Formalizing our friendship?’
Count Herbert nodded. ‘Indeed. I thought that we could make our friendship a matter of official policy by forming an alliance between our counties. We would agree to aid each other in war and in peace, ensuring that neither of our houses would fall into a premature ruin.’
Count Renaud leaned forward. ‘Do you want an alliance between our counties or an alliance between our houses, my friend?’
‘Does it matter?’
‘Of course it does. Those are two very different things - one option is far broader than the other. If we ally our houses, then our destinies will be bound together. We will become members of one greater house that will have multiple branches to contribute to its glory. Opposing us will become far more difficult.’
Count Herbert admitted that sounded pretty tempting, but he was also suspicious. How did his friend benefit from this arrangement? He could see how he benefited easily enough - more aid for his pursuit of his dynasty’s lost glory - but what did Count Renaud get out of this? They were friends, sure, but that was a personal thing, not a dynastic one.
On the surface, this proposal seemed designed to benefit him, but that meant little. There was always a catch. Some things were too good to be true. He frowned, and he finally summed up his thoughts in a single question: ‘what do you get out of this?’
Count Renaud raised an eyebrow. ‘Ah, my friend, ever the cynic. I cannot deny that this deal will somewhat benefit me as well. I am but a small count whose dynasty has never known glory. This will grant me something that I’ve never truly known - prestige. Everybody remembers how your ancestors once united much of the old Roman Empire, and their memories are long. The mere association will make me more notable.’
Count Herbert blinked. That reasoning made sense, except there was still one minor problem… ‘Why do you want notoriety? The ignored counts can get away with far more than the big landholders in this kingdom. Our noble overlord sees the bigger landowners as more threatening to his authority.’
Count Renaud smiled. ‘You’re correct, of course, but that also means that we have no leverage.’
Count Herbert looked at him doubtfully, and the Count of Clermont quickly changed his phrasing. ‘Okay, so you might have leverage from your ancestry, but I don’t. Gaining notoriety will give me a voice in the wider affairs of this realm. I’m tired of being ignored by my so-called betters.’ He snorted. ‘As if they’re any better than me. They would tear apart this realm for so many petty reasons - pure spite, familial issues, and even vague and far-fetched chances at glory abroad.’
Count Herbert blinked - that was a very comprehensive list, but it contained a single glaring exception. ‘Not ambition?’
‘I said petty reasons. Ambitious men would tear the realm apart, but at least they would have a good reason to do so - the advancement of their dynasty. Ambition is what keeps this world interesting, my friend - never forget that. Besides, if I hated ambition, I hardly would have befriended you, would I?’
‘Perhaps not. Anyway, how shall we unite our houses, then? Marriage? Between who?’
Count Renaud smiled, which Count Herbert took as an affirmation of his theory. ‘Indeed. Marriage is a tie that binds. Sadly, I have no unmarried sons, and I lack daughters - but my household is far bigger than my immediate relatives. I have long found that knights are more loyal if you give them something… especially a name. I assume that you do have female relatives? If not… we might have a problem.’
Count Herbert simply sighed. This might be a long day.” - The Strange Friendship of Renaud of Clermont and Herbert of Vermandois
The vote is still going on! It ends this Sunday. As a reminder, the options were:
A. Who cares about the Count's personal friendships? Attack Clermont! (Betrayal Arc... or perhaps a friendship against all odds arc)
B. We'll never reclaim our former glory by attacking mere counties. Attack Flanders you coward! (Risk Arc - either the beginnings of a Glory Arc or an Icarus Arc)
C. I'm pretty sure we've already technically broken the feudal contract. Maybe keeping a low profile is a good idea? (Housekeeping Arc)
And Option C is currently winning, with one vote.
Thanks for the love @Midnite Duke, by the way.
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