Confessing Their Apostasies (A Mildly Interactive AAR)

[Midnite Duke]

Does this Count Herbert have more children than OTL's Odo and Adelaide? I like going for Flanders as Herbert probably cares little about heretics as opposed to gaining land for himself and the succession will be someone else's problem. Thanks

 

[HistoryDude]

“To the glorious and mighty Count Herbert of Vermandois, Valois, and Reims,

I have made a great discovery that left me questioning all that I believed I knew, and so I traveled east, seeking enlightenment. I found out a terrible truth, and I knew that I must share it, especially with a man of a dynasty as esteemed as your own… but also with as many men as I could get to listen.

The teachings propagated by the man who proclaims himself a representative of an omnipotent deity are a lie. On my journeys to the east, I have discovered the true will of the creator of the universe. He does not desire that we mindlessly serve him and obey the arbitrary whims of his representative on Earth. Instead, he desires that we search for knowledge and truth in order to escape this sinful and material world…

Should you acknowledge this truth, you will gain much. You will gain freedom from the man who dares claim divine backing for his temporal interests. His Church has already wronged your house by giving away its throne. Together, we could right that wrong and restore your renowned dynasty to the throne of France… and, in time, to the imperial throne. We can make an empire that is truly holy. We can bring peace to the whole earth…

Should you reject the authority of the Pope, I shall ally with you in defense of the true faith…

Sincerely,
Duke Bertrand of Provence”

“Dear my friend and ally, Count Renaud of Clermont,

I have attached a fascinating letter from the Duke of Provence. For the most part, he appears to have embraced heresy of some kind, but he makes a decent point about the overwhelming power of the clergy in our lands. In addition, his alliance offer is tempting… but surely the Lord would have spoken to me if I was not honoring him correctly?

What do you suggest I do? What would you do? I do not wish to unnecessarily make enemies… especially given how many enemies I have made in recent years.

Love,
Count Herbert of the Tripartite Counties”

“Dear my friend Count Herbert,

Duke Bertrand has sent me a similar letter, and my current plan is to ask for more information about his new… “discoveries”. His letter was vague and does not contain enough information to help me determine the truth. I suggest that you do the same.
As for your concern about divinity… we both know that the ways of the creator are mysterious. Were you not the man who denied his interest in earthly affairs? It is possible that our new acquaintance is correct in his beliefs. He is certainly convinced by them.

If we determine that he is not, though… our rejection should be vague and inconclusive. We should give him hope that we will change our minds and avoid attacking him without just cause. If we do that, he shall not be inclined to make us enemies… especially given how many foes he shall surely make with such… strange declarations.

Love,
Count Renaud of Clermont” - Letters Concerning the Mandaeans




Thus do the heretics enter our tale. The vote continues, so you can have them attacked. As a reminder, here were the options:

A. Wait for an in-game claim and attack Flanders, hoping to get a claim on the duchy
B. Try to change the succession to ensure that my realm isn't shattered after Count Herbert dies. Attack Flanders after.
C. There are heretics near my realm (the Mandaeans)! It is my holy duty to destroy them!

At the moment, we have a vote in favor of Option B and a vote in favor of Option A.

 

[HistoryDude]

I love that the army and battles in this AAR feel like living things. Most stories tend to just say "the battle was fought here, on year X, and the defenders won." Not criticizing that other style, but this is unique compared to others I have read.


While Flanders would be a nice boon, does the Count have enough men to currently challenge them? Herbert seems to be somewhat pragmatic (though also proud). Perhaps he won't settle for anything less than the full duchy, even if a quick county-claim war would be more effective.

The rising heresy might make the Count question his mortality/the afterlife and the coming succession.

Count Herbert doesn't seem to be overly zealous. He probably would like the Pope on his side (to strengthen his claim as Charlegmagne's heir), but wouldn't care too much if internal strife weakens Catholic authority. The Pope could just as easily be an enemy to the Carolingian cause or a friend.

Option 2 (succession law change) seems to be the best play.

Thanks! It's part of my narrative style.

Your vote is noted.

Does this Count Herbert have more children than OTL's Odo and Adelaide? I like going for Flanders as Herbert probably cares little about heretics as opposed to gaining land for himself and the succession will be someone else's problem. Thanks

He has at least 3. It's either equal to his OTL counterpart or more than his OTL counterpart.

Your vote is also noted.

 

[Midnite Duke]

Is there a ducal Holy War possibility? Herbert can be very pious when ducal clay is the earthly reward. Thanks

 

[jak7139]

Is Provence very big atm? Or is it still just the de jure duchy?

 

[jak7139]

Congratulations @HistoryDude! This AAR has been nominated for the Weekly AAR Showcase!

 

[HistoryDude]

“And the great and pious duke of Provence sent out letters detailing his revelation to the princes of the world, hoping to bring spiritual wisdom to them. And yet the rulers were deceived by Ruha and Ptahil and did not wish to acknowledge the truth. They preferred to believe in a cruel god who hated them. They were comforted by the thought of knowing that their enemies would be tormented… They were cruel men.

Even so, two of their number were touched by the Truth and wrote back to the enlightened Duke of Provence. They expressed interest in the true word of the divine. Immediately, the wise duke saw that they were not free from the evil that permeated men’s hearts. He saw that they had temporal reasons to wish to know the great spiritual Truth, but he knew that such ephemeral concerns could lead men to the true deity. Thus did he send out a response to the two counts, inviting them to meet with him in Provence to discuss that which had been revealed to him…

The two counts demurred, insisting that they had responsibilities in their own counties. Instead, they proposed communicating by correspondence alone. At this, the duke’s heart was filled with terror, for he knew that preaching heresy would earn him an execution, especially in the empire that the deluded princes dared called holy. He began to write down a refusal, but his quill ceased to work.

He looked up and saw a being of such intense and holy light that he was forced to look away. The being told him to agree to the proposal of the two counts ‘for the greater glory of the divine’. Recognizing a divine order when he received one, the holy duke agreed. His quill wrote an agreement and a short explanation of the Truth of the Light, and he told his messengers to deliver it to Vermandois and Clermont.

His messengers walked through the Kingdom of France with the letters, but no man dared approach them. They reached their destinations without difficulty, and the Truth was revealed to the two temporal rulers who would listen.
Neither immediately converted, but the topic remained on both of their minds… and neither denounced the messengers or the duke as heretics.

Divine messengers flew to Count Renaud, but they saw the evil in Count Herbert’s heart and decided that he would be unwilling to accept the glorious Truth. Thus were the ambitious and worldly Carolingians put at odds with the pious men of Provence.

Count Renaud, for his part, read the tales that the duke sent him and attempted to make an informed decision. One visit wasn’t enough to convert him… but it did make him more amenable to dealing with the enlightened men of Provence.” - The Provencal Epistles

“At the beginning of the 11th century, the Catholic Church was perhaps the most powerful institution in all of Europe. Kings and emperors answered to it, and an excommunication was feared from Ireland to Sicily and from Hispania to Poland. By the end of the 16th century, the Catholic Church was a relic. Its spiritual power was a far cry from what it had been at its height, and its temporal power was nonexistent. This book seeks to answer why the Church fell so far in those five centuries.

Many scholars insist that the Greek Schism was the first sign of the Church’s decline, but this is far from certain. The Greek and Latin Rites had been separating for centuries beforehand, and the Schism only finalized a divide that already existed.

In addition, of the two churches that emerged from the Schism, the western Church was doubtless the more influential. The Orthodox Church only existed in the Greek Empire and the small and fractured states of the Rus. By contrast, the Catholic Church proper held influence across the rest of Christendom. The Holy Roman Emperors were reliant on them for coronations, and the dynasties of Europe courted their favor.

No, the Greek Schism didn’t mark the first fracture in the Church’s dominance. That honor goes to the Provencal Conversion.” - Against the Pope: A Brief History of the Decline of the Catholic Church


A/N: Just a few looks at how the Provencal heretics will see these events - and some foreshadowing.

 

[HistoryDude]

Is there a ducal Holy War possibility? Herbert can be very pious when ducal clay is the earthly reward. Thanks

I'm... not actually sure. I'll need to check that. Of course, Provence doesn't border Count Herbert's realm... yet.

Is Provence very big atm? Or is it still just the de jure duchy?

I think it's still just the de jure duchy, but I didn't look that hard. I'll check again when I next play.

Congratulations @HistoryDude! This AAR has been nominated for the Weekly AAR Showcase!

Thanks!

 

[Midnite Duke]

Historically was excommunication more for political reasons than spiritual as it in-game? What manner of person is it that thinks the GOOD Count Herbert has evil in his heart? Thanks

 

[TheButterflyComposer]

One thing Crusader Kings has never quite balanced is how ridiculously easy it is for Latin Christianity to collapse. Sure, multiple regional heresies can exist, but that in no way impactd the overall power of the church across the continent.

It's good for alt world stuff because you have to genuinely try to keep the church going, but otherwise a bit silly.

 

[jak7139]

The Duke of Provence better be careful. A divine being showed itself to him, but is it the one he thinks it is?

 

[HistoryDude]

“As Provence fell into the clutches of heresy, Count Herbert made alliances with other great dynasties. The Carolingians had fallen far from their height, but some of their prestige remained, and many houses wanted to claim that. The Count of Vermandois had no trouble finding willing suitors for his relatives.

The problem was that the list of potential allied houses was very long, and Count Herbert’s list of relatives was very short. He needed to choose which powers would make the best allies - both inside France and in Europe as a whole.

In addition, he needed to ensure that his new allies didn’t have conflicts of interest - or even potential conflicts of interest. That immediately eliminated the Capetians and the Salians (who ruled the Holy Roman Empire at this time). However, it also eliminated many more minor French dukes, as Count Herbert knew that he would need to build up a powerbase within France before he could successfully seize the kingdom.

That still left the vast majority of Italian and German royalty as possible marriage partners. In the end, Count Herbert betrothed his son, Eudes, to a de Hauteville. This move made strategic sense - it would give Vermandois an ally in Italy, which would prove useful in any potential war with the Holy Roman Empire.

Count Herbert’s other marriage didn’t make any sense at all at a glance. The man married another of his sons, Pierre, to a Welsh noblewoman. This move granted Vermandois an alliance with a small Welsh kingdom, but that wasn’t worth much. The Welsh were a divided people who lacked a unified kingdom, and England (currently in personal union with Norway) and Scotland were far more powerful nations on the British Isles at the time. A royal marriage with one of them might’ve made more sense, although marrying into British royalty at all was a strange move. On the other hand, one of Count Herbert’s mercenary captains was an exiled Anglo-Saxon… and Count Herbert was ambitious enough to take even the thinnest of pretexts to expand his power. Assuming that a Carolingian invasion of England was part of Herbert’s plans, the marriage suddenly makes perfect strategic sense, especially given the instability in that kingdom.

Regardless, the conquest of Reims clearly increased Carolingian prestige enough to allow them to marry the great leaders of the time for diplomatic reasons. It was a sign that, perhaps, the other royal families of Europe no longer viewed the Carolingians as a pitiful house clinging to past glories instead of doing anything to recover them.” - Diplomacy and Royal Marriage

“The Conquest of Reims also indicated that Count Herbert’s power within France was growing. Indeed, it had grown so much that King Philippe of the Capetians saw the need to grant his dynastic rival a seat on the Royal Council. After all, potential enemies had to be… monitored.

Interestingly enough, though, the position that the Count of Vermandois was given was spymaster… which granted him a lot of influence. It also entrusted the safety of the royal court to him. Presumably, King Philippe hoped to catch him in the act of betraying his kingdom, which would enable him to remove the last remnants of the old dynasty from his realm. If so, that plan backfired horribly. After all, the easiest way to destroy a country… is from within.” - Capets and Carolingians, A Brief History of France

 

[HistoryDude]

I would once again like to thank @jak7139 for nominating this AAR for the Showcase.

Historically was excommunication more for political reasons than spiritual as it in-game? What manner of person is it that thinks the GOOD Count Herbert has evil in his heart? Thanks

It was during the Middle Ages. It was one of the weapons that the Church used during its power struggles.

One thing Crusader Kings has never quite balanced is how ridiculously easy it is for Latin Christianity to collapse. Sure, multiple regional heresies can exist, but that in no way impactd the overall power of the church across the continent.

It's good for alt world stuff because you have to genuinely try to keep the church going, but otherwise a bit silly.

True enough. Of course, it's not like Count Herbert would dare to challenge such a powerful institution without backup... yet.

The Duke of Provence better be careful. A divine being showed itself to him, but is it the one he thinks it is?

The duke is confident in his new faith. Of course, that epistle was written by the Provencal heretics - it's meant to prove their worldview. It's likely that they're exaggerating.

For everyone who's joining due to the Showcase, here's the current vote - what path should Count Herbert take?
A. Wait for a claim and attack Flanders, hoping that the claim is for the whole duchy (and attack for a single county if necessary)
B. Attempt to change the succession so that Count Herbert's death doesn't split the realm. Attack Flanders after that's dealt with.
C. There are heretics in Provence. Surely it is Count Herbert's holy duty to destroy them utterly.

At the moment, we have a single vote for Option A and another for Option B. You can always change your vote if the voting period isn't over, and the voting period ends this Sunday, September 17.

 

[Midnite Duke]

Herbert as spymaster is putting a wolf in charge of guarding the henhouse. No insurance company is going to offer life insurance to a Capetian. In CK3, are the Carlings getting a bonus from the exploits of Charlemagne and Pepin?

 

[jak7139]

I would once again like to thank @jak7139 for nominating this AAR for the Showcase.

You're welcome!

A poor move from the King of France. Giving the player the position of spymaster is never good (for the AI).

 

[Chac1]

Congratulations on winning the Weekly AAR Showcase!
I will note, however, that instead of trying to pick this up in progress, I went back and read from the beginning. So I am a new reader but one who started before the well-deserved Showcase award.
This work shines in the letter exchanges and the different views of the historians. (At least, that's the perspective of this reader.)
Now, that I am finally caught up, I can cast a vote as someone who is informed and has the context (at least of what has been shared so far).
Put me down for selection B. Will be interesting to see, however, how Provence expands its religious influence.

 

[Fool Esquire]

Heirs are like dandelion seeds; spreading them around is better than keeping them all close together. (Especially when you're a magic ghost who can take control of anyone in the dynasty.) Therefore, I vote for A, Flanders will be ours!

 

[HistoryDude]

“Shortly after the end of the war for Reims, a man approached Count Herbert with a proposal. He wanted the many nobles of the new domain to meet and prepare for fighting together. Count Herbert considered the proposal and decided that it had merit… although his decision was almost certainly influenced by the fact that the man who had approached him was in fact one of his most influential vassals, Mayor Baudouin of Chatillon.

After the army had time to assemble and a bit of discussion, Count Herbert agreed that their war game would be a siege. He figured that being able to take castles was more important than being able to win pitched battles. Also, he wanted to prove that Vermandois wasn’t in any danger of falling during a war…

Perhaps sensing his pride, Mayor Baudouin suggested that Count Herbert be placed in charge of the attackers. He figured that this setup would place his liege out of his comfort zone and force him to adapt. His worry was that the Carolingian was to set in his ways and would fail if placed in unfamiliar circumstances.” - The Secret Life of Count Herbert

“I was gathered with my designated soldiers, including the Mayor of Chatillon. I was annoyed at being placed with the attackers, of course - I thought that his castle would be difficult to take, and proving that to those who doubted was part of the point of this exercise. Nevertheless, I decided to try to do so anyway - a successful attack would prove my tactical mettle and expose potential weaknesses in the defenses, while a failed one would show how defended my capital was. I couldn’t really lose, given the circumstances. That was one of the upsides of being put on the spot by a vassal… although the mayor definitely needed to learn loyalty and proper deference.

Anyway, I decided to begin recklessly. I ordered a charge at the castle walls, and most of my soldiers obeyed. In the war game, this move went poorly. Many of my men were ‘knocked out’ - eliminated from consideration. That left my army depleted, but it did show that Saint Quentin was not particularly susceptible to a direct attack.

I also fought well, leading from the front and proving that I could be a leader who held firm and didn’t flee easily. I’m not sure how much I will translate this into a battle situation - I am the hope of Carolingian restoration, and I don’t want to leave my realm to my children too early. On the other hand, leading soldiers in a charge was exhilarating, even without the possibility of death. I want to feel that thrill again… especially if I can find a way to separate it from the risk that was present when I got ambushed…

Regardless, I hoped that my reckless move also increased the arrogance of the defenders, making them more proud and less inclined to consider my next moves. I’m not sure how much this strategy succeeded, honestly. My next attack was initially far more successful, even reaching the stairs of the castle, where I ordered everyone to charge once more and all at once. I hoped that they would be overwhelmed by our sheer numbers, but my troops proved their bravery. As long as that carries over into a battle setting, I think my family’s territory will be defended very well.

Even so, I had to make another attempt to take control of the castle. I ordered the archers into position, figuring that the extra pressure would aid my attack. It did, but the brave defenders of my castle held firm.

I lost the war game, but that just proves that my castle will be defended well when a war next breaks out…” - The Court Records of Vermandois

 

[HistoryDude]

Herbert as spymaster is putting a wolf in charge of guarding the henhouse. No insurance company is going to offer life insurance to a Capetian. In CK3, are the Carlings getting a bonus from the exploits of Charlemagne and Pepin?

Herbert is certainly going to take advantage of his new position...

If they are, I haven't noticed. It's possible there's a bloodline, but I'm not noticing any extra prestige or strange prestige gains.

You're welcome!

A poor move from the King of France. Giving the player the position of spymaster is never good (for the AI).

We'll see how long it takes for him to regret it.

Congratulations on winning the Weekly AAR Showcase!
I will note, however, that instead of trying to pick this up in progress, I went back and read from the beginning. So I am a new reader but one who started before the well-deserved Showcase award.
This work shines in the letter exchanges and the different views of the historians. (At least, that's the perspective of this reader.)
Now, that I am finally caught up, I can cast a vote as someone who is informed and has the context (at least of what has been shared so far).
Put me down for selection B. Will be interesting to see, however, how Provence expands its religious influence.

Thanks! I'm glad you like it. Your vote is also noted.

Heirs are like dandelion seeds; spreading them around is better than keeping them all close together. (Especially when you're a magic ghost who can take control of anyone in the dynasty.) Therefore, I vote for A, Flanders will be ours!

Your vote is noted.

All of which means... we're tied at two apiece for options A and B. I'll extend the vote until tomorrow and hope that someone new can break the tie. If no one does... well, I have the emergency tiebreaker votes.

 

[jak7139]

Count Herbert may have lost the game, but he's once again shown that leading from the front is his strong suit. A great sign for his soldiers and vassals.