Confessing Their Apostasies (A Mildly Interactive AAR)

[HistoryDude]

“And yet, for all his greatness, the wicked forces of this Dark World were too powerful to be overcome. They conspired to kill the pious duke, and they had succeeded. His son, who shared his name, was still deluded. He attacked the pious believers loyal to the Truth, hoping to undo his father’s revelation.

Thankfully, that revelation could not be undone. The old duke had known about his son’s delusion and worked to counteract it. He had revealed the Truth to the men who swore him allegiance, and they had known that he was correct. Despite everything, the taint of the corrupt material world only briefly brushed our duchy.

Indeed, the devoutness of the enlightened duke was so great that his messengers swayed their neighbors in France, even despite the great wars that his emperor initiated against that people. Our neighbors acknowledged our Truth, and I saw that it was good.

We had lost a great and pious man, but our faith remained powerful. We knew that we had managed to save some men, and that was enough. We did not need the support of a prince of this world.” - The Provencal Epistles

“The triumphant return of Catholicism to the throne in Provence might have averted the decline of the Church, had other men led that faith. Unfortunately for the Catholics, the Mandaeans remained powerful in the realm that they had once ruled, and their faith had spread widely on the southern coast of the Mediterranean Sea. They could still command influence.

Even so, their destruction might have been achieved if any man had been willing to attack the men that they deemed heretics. None of them were. Even the prince-bishops that had abandoned their faith were not punished in the slightest by anything except, perhaps, their own guilt. No holy wars were launched. The precedent was set.

Everyone knew that. Depending on who you ask, Count Herbert of Vermandois might have been inspired to write his Secret Testament by this de facto toleration of heresy. Many call that text a forgery, of course, but the point remains. Even if it is, his descendants would never have grown so bold as to begin forging such texts if there was some indication that they would be stopped. There was none.

It was that, more than anything else, that ensured the Catholic Church’s end. No one could’ve known that at the time, but, in hindsight, it is easy to pinpoint. The Church died as soon as it lost the Carolingians' loyalty and allowed them to gain power.” - Against the Pope: A Brief History of the Decline of the Catholic Church

“This text is the revelations and beliefs of the Almighty God to Herbert, acknowledged only as Count of Vermandois, Reims, and Valois, but truly the rightful King of all the Franks and Emperor of the Romans, Hallowed Be His Name… “ - Dedication of the Secret Testament of Count Herbert of Vermandois



A/N: The Duke of Provence is Catholic again. As noted, though, that doesn't mean much - his provinces and his vassals remain Mandaeans, and the heresy has even spread westward, into the lands of the Dukes of Tolouse...

My tiebreaker vote is for Option A. Flanders will face our might in battle... as soon as I can be sure that facing them isn't suicide. That leadup will be fun (it is a tale of intrigue, assassinations, and alliances...)

 

[HistoryDude]

Count Herbert may have lost the game, but he's once again shown that leading from the front is his strong suit. A great sign for his soldiers and vassals.

Indeed... as long as he doesn't get himself killed.

 

[Midnite Duke]

Onward to Fanny Flanders! The Manifest Destiny (ie Carolingian rule) must be achieved. Bad times ahead for the Catholics?

 

[Fool Esquire]

Awww yeah, we goin' Mormon up in here, direct line to God for Herbert

 

[jak7139]

The spark of Provence lit the fire in Herbert's heart. Onward to Flanders!

 

[Chac1]

My tiebreaker vote is for Option A. Flanders will face our might in battle... as soon as I can be sure that facing them isn't suicide. That leadup will be fun (it is a tale of intrigue, assassinations, and alliances...)

Yes, always best not to over-extend yourself, especially in military matters.
Will be interesting to see if the collapse of the Catholic Church and the rise of heresies have an impact on the flavor of politics Count Herbert chooses to play going forward.

 

[HistoryDude]

“Count Herbert, naturally, used his new position of spymaster for the Kingdom of France to his personal advantage. His first act was to send agents to the Flemish court, hoping to gain leverage over Duke Boudewijn V. He failed to find anything that would justify an immediate invasion, but he did discover a useful piece of information.

That was the fact that the Duke of Flanders was allied with Duke Guilhelm VIII of Aquitaine. This changed Count Herbert’s calculations for his war against Flanders. He had been confident that he could defeat the army of Flanders alone, but he was much less confident that he could defeat a combined army of Flanders and Aquitaine, both of which were large and important duchies in France.

In order to deal with his new knowledge about this alliance, he decided to make more allies of his own. His existing allies were located on the British Isles and in southern Italy. Neither would be able to provide much immediate aid in the event of war. He needed allies closer to his own territory. He knew what his first move was going to be - finalizing the alliance with his neighbor and friend, Count Renaud of Clermont.

The problem was that he wanted the alliance finalized with a marriage, and no members of Count Renaud’s family were unmarried. Count Herbert quickly decided that this issue was a surmountable problem. All he needed to do was make one of his friend’s relatives unmarried - and he knew exactly who. He began to plot to kill the wife of Count Renaud’s heir, Hugh… so he could marry one of his daughters to him. That began one of the most famous schemes in the history of France…” - Capets and Carolingians: A History of France

“To the venerable Count Herbert of the Tripartite Counties,

I have heard of your scheme to murder my daughter-in-law. I know why you wish to do this terrible deed… and I approve. Your house would provide a far better wife for my son than the lowborn blood of his current wife. In truth, I do not suspect that my husband would have many issues with it either, although he would never admit as much.

I would like to meet with you to discuss potential actions that we may take to… hasten our official alliance. My husband wishes to discuss the recent wars in our kingdom, and we can meet then, should you approve his proposal. You would need to create some excuse, of course, but I trust that such an act would not be too difficult for a masterful schemer such as yourself.
I will give you a word of caution, however. I have tried to do this deed before. I have used poisoned wine and secret assassins in the night. None of these tactics have worked. My attempts to do this deed have failed. I hope that yours do not.

Countess Ermengard of Clermont” - An Epistulary History of France

“The scheme to assassinate Hugh of Clermont’s wife gained a supporter almost as soon as Count Herbert began it. How the Countess of Clermont discovered the plot remains unknown to this day, but she immediately began to aid it… to her own later undoing.” - Capets and Carolingians: A Short History of France

 

[HistoryDude]

Onward to Fanny Flanders! The Manifest Destiny (ie Carolingian rule) must be achieved. Bad times ahead for the Catholics?

Yep. The Flemish War will require some preparation, though...

Awww yeah, we goin' Mormon up in here, direct line to God for Herbert

Count Herbert's descendants will claim that he founded their sect. Whether or not that's true... is unclear. It is in character, though.

When we eventually get to that, I'll almost certainly have votes for tenets.

The spark of Provence lit the fire in Herbert's heart. Onward to Flanders!

Indeed!

Yes, always best not to over-extend yourself, especially in military matters.
Will be interesting to see if the collapse of the Catholic Church and the rise of heresies have an impact on the flavor of politics Count Herbert chooses to play going forward.

We'll see how it affects things. Catholicism isn't in extreme danger... yet.

 

[Chac1]

“The scheme to assassinate Hugh of Clermont’s wife gained a supporter almost as soon as Count Herbert began it. How the Countess of Clermont discovered the plot remains unknown to this day, but she immediately began to aid it… to her own later undoing.” - Capets and Carolingians: A Short History of France

Aaaaah.... espionage... I like the turn to the dark arts that your plot has taken.

 

[jak7139]

The problem was that he wanted the alliance finalized with a marriage, and no members of Count Renaud’s family were unmarried.

How did you get the alliance in the first place without a marriage? Does it work differently in CK3?

He began to plot to kill the wife of Count Renaud’s heir, Hugh… so he could marry one of his daughters to him.

I'm sure nothing bad will come of this . Though it would make for interesting drama if Renaud finds out.

How the Countess of Clermont discovered the plot remains unknown to this day, but she immediately began to aid it… to her own later undoing.”

Ominous...

 

[Fool Esquire]

 

[Midnite Duke]

Should Carolingian not come before Capet in the title? Maybe relegate the minor house Capet to the subtitle. Is there someone in northern Germany to ally? Aquitaine is scary. Thanks

 

[HistoryDude]

“In his castle at Saint-Quentin, Count Herbert considered the letter from his friend’s wife. It appeared to contain excellent news - a potential co-conspirator in Clermont itself would be useful. Even so, the Carolingian was suspicious. What if this was a trap? What if the Countess of Clermont truly loved her daughter-in-law and merely wished to incriminate him? What if she didn’t care about the potential target but simply disliked him and wanted to break his unofficial agreement with his friend?

It was such thoughts that guided the letter he sent in response. In that, he chose his words carefully - neither confirming nor denying that he had a scheme but instead speaking of the benefits a more binding alliance would bring to both their realms. It was a delicate dance - he could not be too clear that his murder scheme existed, but he also couldn’t outright deny the countess’s aid.

His letter to Count Renaud himself was rather more straightforward. It simply accepted the meeting request. Even if Countess Ermengard was lying or attempting to trap him, a discussion on how his… diplomatic arrangement… with his old friend would continue was worth having. After all, when they had made the agreement, they had been almost equals. Now, Count Herbert had a position on the royal court and had tripled his domain. He figured that he needed to make a few concessions to his friend.

Despite the diplomatic concerns, Count Herbert’s focus was on his plot and Countess Ermengard. That was why he thought a bit more about the actual content of his potential co-conspirator’s message, and he noticed some of the stranger details contained within it. Assuming that she was being truthful, there must be a reason why the ordinary tactics of assassination failed. Mayhaps it was simple paranoia, but Count Herbert had a strange feeling that it was more than that.

He decided to think about it more once he got a response, but his dreams did not allow him this wish. They reflected his fears. In them, he saw a thousand explanations for his target’s survival. They ranged from mundane paranoia (by any number of people) to a secret order of assassins protecting her to divine protection of innocence. He saw himself getting stabbed by a thousand distinct and hooded assailants. He saw himself being smote by the lightning of divine wrath. He saw many different ways that this scheme could go wrong.

When he awoke, he remembered his dreams, but, in the waking world, the fear that they caused was outweighed by the benefit that a successful assassination would bring. Even so, dreams of failure continued to haunt him. Under the sunlight, he refused to speak a word of them to anyone. His conscience haunted him, all the same.

Countess Ermengarde’s reply came during a beautiful summer day. The sun illuminated his castle, and birds chirped and sang beautiful songs. Count Herbert took this timing as a positive sign - indeed, as a sign of divine favor for his plan. The message itself was vaguely coded, of course, but it elaborated on why she was willing to do such a terrible deed. The information given was extraordinarily vague, of course, but it was enough to earn Count Herbert’s trust.

Thankfully, Count Renaud’s letter had arrived alongside his wife’s, and it confirmed the place and time of their meeting. Using this new knowledge, Count Herbert began to finalize his plan…” - The Assassination That Built An Empire

 

[HistoryDude]

Aaaaah.... espionage... I like the turn to the dark arts that your plot has taken.

I wasn't anticipating this turn of events, but then I realized what benefits it could grant me...

How did you get the alliance in the first place without a marriage? Does it work differently in CK3?

I'm sure nothing bad will come of this . Though it would make for interesting drama if Renaud finds out.

Ominous...

Countess Ermengard knows the risks.

I didn't officially have an alliance. I had a friendship with a neighboring ruler and did a bit of cheating for RP (since it didn't make sense that Count Herbert wouldn't exploit the friendship or that Count Renaud would reject a few requests).

You can get an alliance without a marriage in CK3, but it requires a diplomacy perk that's rather high on that tree - and Count Herbert was focusing on the Martial Tree, so that wasn't an option here.

View attachment 1025637

Of course. This is the Middle Ages - every official alliance needs to be cemented by marriage unless you're a master diplomat.

Should Carolingian not come before Capet in the title? Maybe relegate the minor house Capet to the subtitle. Is there someone in northern Germany to ally? Aquitaine is scary. Thanks

I didn't find suitable allies in Germany. We'll see how long that lasts.

I named this fictional source earlier. I can't remember the exact reason why I named it that, but I think it was because it sounded better this way.

 

[Midnite Duke]

Clermont is the key to reestablishing the Karlings as top dog? Some paranoia is good, so long as you do not allow it to control you. Thanks

 

[jak7139]

I understand Herbert's fears. So far he's been conquering "justly". But murder is a whole different game.

Herbert's dreams seem oddly prophetic. Let's hope they don't come true.

 

[Chac1]

I wasn't anticipating this turn of events, but then I realized what benefits it could grant me...

The count's caution is good and his guilt-ridden dreams are a nice touch. The title of your historian's book in this latest installment is certainly telling.

 

[HistoryDude]

“The Meeting at Clermont is shrouded in mystery. What was discussed in the building that would later become known as the Castle of Betrayal remains unknown to this day, though that hasn’t stopped historians, dramatists, and novelists from trying to imagine it.

What is known is simple. Count Herbert of the Tripartite Counties met with Count Renaud of Clermont and his wife, Countess Ermengard. He attended at least two separate meetings - one with Renaud over the status of their alliance and one with Ermengard of their scheme to assassinate the heir’s wife.

The results of the meeting with Count Renaud are less obscured. One imagines that this is because it didn’t have the potential to cast the Carolingian Dynasty in a bad light. Regardless, that meeting contained much negotiation and featured Renaud complaining about how he had not seen substantial dividends from the alliance, whereas Count Herbert had gained substantial amounts of land.

The eventual result was interesting. Count Herbert agreed to pay his friend some of the gold, but he also promised his friend that he or his descendants would be, at the very least, dukes in a Carolingian France. The count also agreed to use his new position as spymaster of France to gain blackmail for his friend.” - Capets and Carolingians: A Brief History of France

“One of the most important and yet obscure events in all of history was a betrayal in spirit if not in theory. That would be the Assassination in Clermont, which was actually a double betrayal - it was a betrayal of a friend and a betrayal of a husband.

The scheme began over letters, but the two main participants soon spoke with each other in person at the Meeting at Clermont. That was an egregious betrayal - not merely of Count Renaud but also of the alleged purpose of the meeting, which was to catch up with old friends.

What went on behind closed doors in that accursed castle will forever be unknown, but we can be certain it wasn’t pure. It was definitely a betrayal.

However, there weren’t many initial dividends to this underhanded scheming. The target of the assassination plot remained alive, and the initial agents were caught soon enough. In an ideal world, it would’ve ended there - they would’ve talked.

Unfortunately, this is not an ideal world. The agents refused to give up their employers, and Count Renaud refused to press the issue. According to the traditional narrative, he upped his daughter-in-law’s security but did nothing else.

Some accounts disagree and insist that Count Renaud of Clermont did get confessions under torture. These accounts say that he refused to believe these confessions, as he trusted his wife and his friend. Apparently, he believed that the agents served a foreign ruler or a rival French noble and were trying to frame his current allies and reduce his support. Of course, it is equally possible that this was also true - Count Herbert of the Tripartite Counties and Countess Ermengard of Clermont were hardly the only people on the planet who wanted Count Renaud’s daughter-in-law dead.” - Thirty Pieces of Silver: A History of Betrayal

 

[HistoryDude]

Clermont is the key to reestablishing the Karlings as top dog? Some paranoia is good, so long as you do not allow it to control you. Thanks

At the moment, an (official) alliance would be good. And a bit of healthy paranoia never hurt anyone.

I understand Herbert's fears. So far he's been conquering "justly". But murder is a whole different game.

Herbert's dreams seem oddly prophetic. Let's hope they don't come true.

Herbert can't admit that he has misgivings about this when he's awake... so those fears go to his subconscious.

The count's caution is good and his guilt-ridden dreams are a nice touch. The title of your historian's book in this latest installment is certainly telling.

Thanks!

 

[Fool Esquire]

She survived AGAIN? At this rate, rather than 30 pieces of silver, it'll be 30 arrows that missed their target.