Content being sold with cosmetics in content creators pack it's wrong

[Tbeaz161]

I understand the issue of not wanting things to be broken up piecemeal to be sold - but would you find it preferable to not have this content available at all if the only way it would regularly be available is through these content creator packs?

I am extremely cynical of the gaming industries financial prsctices- and absolutely believe they will often take whatever they can to charge as much as possible for as little content, but I feel that even cynically there has to be a little truth to the idea that the content creator packs are basically bonus content that would not be added to the game otherwise.

Do you simply think the precedent is so dangerous that it is worth not having this content under any conditions? To be honest given paradoxes predatory buisness history I wouldn't even necessarily disagree with that arguement (depends on the arguement though) I can absolutely realistically see a future where this is a give an inch take a foot scenario that eventually leads back to buggy half baked releases for exorbitant cost.

But I'm not certain that it's an inevitability.

 

[Azgabeth]

Special buildings are CONTENT

I am going to stop you RIGHT THERE

Repeat after me

SPECIAL BUILDINGS ARE NOT CONTENT

Anything a modder can make is NOT CONTENT period.

THEY ARE COSMETICS

If it's something modders CANNOT DO like adding unique Government Mechanics, that is conent.

 

[Unknown Sage]

...

THEY ARE COSMETICS

...

This is just plainly false though. Special buildings come with bonuses/modifiers/special abilities.
That is definitely not cosmetic.

They might not be mechanics which is how I would describe the (completely new) government types. But they are definitely content.

Now I don't necessarily desire to go into a pedantic discussion about linguistics. But I would even say cosmetics are a subset of content.

 

[Sarsante]

I understand the issue of not wanting things to be broken up piecemeal to be sold - but would you find it preferable to not have this content available at all if the only way it would regularly be available is through these content creator packs?

I am extremely cynical of the gaming industries financial prsctices- and absolutely believe they will often take whatever they can to charge as much as possible for as little content, but I feel that even cynically there has to be a little truth to the idea that the content creator packs are basically bonus content that would not be added to the game otherwise.

Do you simply think the precedent is so dangerous that it is worth not having this content under any conditions? To be honest given paradoxes predatory buisness history I wouldn't even necessarily disagree with that arguement (depends on the arguement though) I can absolutely realistically see a future where this is a give an inch take a foot scenario that eventually leads back to buggy half baked releases for exorbitant cost.

But I'm not certain that it's an inevitability.

I find they should keep doing the same monetization they did so far. Chapter gives all content and creators pack give cosmetics.

So we would get the monuments as part of a free update now or when the first dlc of the chapter it's released. Then they can sell the nice 3d models for the buildings.

Same way the Content Creator Pack: West Slavic Attire doesn't add special buildings to slavs, doesn't add special traditions, doesn't add special tenets. If you've all chapters so far and decide skip West Slavic Attire you've everything related to West Slavic besides some clothing in your game.

Let's say monuments dlc it's the only creators pack we get this year and costs $5.

To have all content in the game, because special buildings are content. Why Baghdad, Constantinople and some other places are so good? Because their special buildings. You need to pay $50 from chapter and $5 from monuments dlc. It's the same thing of saying that chapters now cost $55, because they used to give all content and now they don't.

I'm not assuming things will be half baked, they look really good.

I'm saying to have all content in the game now have the chapters it's no longer enough. That means to get all content in this year you need top buy the chapter, monuments and idk another 1, 2, maybe 3 creators pack? What's even the point of the chapter if you don't know how many things you'll need to buy after that?

Let's compare to Stellaris from same company that uses the same "chapter" model:

Stellaris Season 8 sold last year, includes every single dlc released last year, all 3 of them. If you had all previous content and bought season 8 bundle you've everything in the game.

CK3 chapter 3, if you had everything released until last year and you bought chapter 3 you're "only" missing 2 cosmetics dlc. But you do have all content.

This year CK3 chapter 4 plus monuments creator pack and an undisclosed amount of another creators pack that can add anything really. MaA, buildings, traditions, whatever they want...

 

[guiskj]

Anything a modder can make is NOT CONTENT period.

I feel bad for you if you think VIET and RICE are not content.

And let's not even talk about total conversion mods.

 

[prismaticmarcus]

So might as well add my thoughts to this.

Firstly I think maybe the thread title and angle you are coming from is drawing unnecessary focus on the wrong part of this problem. it is not really at all a problem that it is made by a modder.

But rather that this is borderline microtransaction pay to win dlc. Or well, it would be if we know for sure the special buildings itself aren't added for free with placeholder graphics. It is sort of a repeat of the older paradox games where you had many dlcs which each added like a special cool feature or two (perhaps slightly exagerated). And it does set a worrying precedent for more future dlc that similarly add a very small amount of gameplay affecting stuff, which then is packaged together with cosmetics. A cynical person might see this as a combination with the intent to drive up the price by using cosmetics, and making it so that if you don't get the 'cosmetic' pack you miss out on gameplay relevant stuff (stuff that is almost certainly entirely positive to have, hence pay to win microtransaction material).

Now there is of course in this particular instance the fact that special buildings are mostly inconsequential for gameplay, with perhaps a few exceptions. So I hesitate to really call it pay to win microtransactions. And the idea of having more cool special building graphics is certainly not a bad one. But I can certainly see why this might feel wrong to people.

How can it possibly be pay to win when it's a single player game, and in multiplayer everyone has access to the host's DLCs? I don't get this criticism.

 

[Sarsante]

How can it possibly be pay to win when it's a single player game, and in multiplayer everyone has access to the host's DLCs? I don't get this criticism.

It's not about being pay to win, it's about the chapter not having all content anymore. Chapter 3 is missing cosmetics which are fine in my opinion and the yearly cost of all the content it's the chapter 3 pricing. Now we'll need chapter 4 plus monuments to have all special buildings and it's not necessarily all the content we'll need to buy besides the chapter 4.

So it's the same than saying chapter 4 now costs $60, and we dont even know if it's gonna be $60 or not because in 3 months can be released a MaA creator pack with 8 unique MaA units, so then it will be like $70. Then in october they can release military buildings creator pack and then it would be $80. All those things previously were included in the chapter or the free updates released with the dlcs.

Selling a yearly bundle that doesn't have all content and it's not clear what else we'll have to buy besides the chapter 4 is the problem.

edit: No I dont expect the modder to do the 3d models for free, they can be sold as monument dlc it's absolutely fine but the special buildings should be part of the game as one of the chapter 4 dlc or the free updates that will drop as they were doing until now.

 

[apollo1989vieten]

I am not big on purely cosmetic dlc, but I probably will pick up the monument pack. It will help fill out the map with special buildings. My only problem is that if the areas that these monuments are in get dlc packs (flavor or major expansion), there won’t be any special buildings (or fewer) included because this pack includes some monuments in the area.

 

[Sarsante]

Let's break it down, people.

What do you, as a consumer, expects from an official DLC?
Personally, I expect not only an interesting addition to the game, but I also expects that this content is SUPPORTED THROUGHOUT THE LIFECYCLE OF THE GAME.

That is the main difference here. Paradox is not just paying a modder, it is committing to dedicate its own resources in making sure this thing is supported for the rest of the game's life. THAT IS WHY THEY TAKE A CUT.

How is this any different from Paradox instead paying a an ex-employee to do some freelance work?

As for being mad that things are not being a part of Chapters? Congratulations, you just proved to Paradox that this bundling marketing gimmick has a hold of your lizard brain and wallet. Wanna be mad about something that actually matters? Be mad about their practice of selling us DLC in bunches before you really know what the hell you are buying. And leave the modders trying to make a buck alone.

you clearly didnt understand the point of this post.

Im fine with the modder making money from their 3d models, they look good and it's fine to sell them as creator pack.

Im not fine with the special buildings being included in the creator pack. So far they're all included in the chapters or the free updates released with each dlc. You didnt have to pay for byzantines attire to have theodosian walls, or abbasids attire to have house of wisdom, wessex attire to have stonehenge. If a modder make new models for all of those they can sell, not sell the buildings themselves tho that's the point of the thread.

If monuments creator pack costs $5 in practice it means to have all content in the game people will have to buy chapter 4 plus monuments and that's $55 instead of $50, that's what it's happening. I'm not complaining about $5 for the 3d models of said monuments, same way I never complained about $5 for clothing in the previous creator packs. But you never needed to buy creator packs if you didnt want to because they're cosmetics.

 

[giorgosth128]

I agree paying a modder for monuments just feels wrong if it was just the 3d buildings it would had been alright

 

[Unknown Sage]

How can it possibly be pay to win when it's a single player game, and in multiplayer everyone has access to the host's DLCs? I don't get this criticism.

ah yeah sorry I should have been a bit more clear. I used that particular phrase since I don't know how else to phrase it. What I meant with pay to win microtransaction is that it is specifically a small thing you are buying, which comes with ingame benefits in the form of bonuses/modifiers. I used it to specifically distinguish between this and purely cosmetic microtransactions, which hypothetically could simply be ignored if you don't want the visuals, in that they do not affect the game balance. It's like buying special currency types for single player mobile games. You don't win against other people since it is single player, but you can still buy them to make things easier/skip annoying game mechanics. This gives precedent for very small dlc with a few culture traditions/building types/whatever that gets price boosted by adding some cosmetics. And I think that is not a good way to go about this. Small cosmetic packs are fine. Small game feature packs I think are not.

 

[Zylathas]

I rather like how a modder is mostly creating monuments for region's that still have none and probably will end up having close to none. The community packs currently add to region's that haven't been a focus for either crusader kings 1, 2 and 3 so I am entirely fine with it.

More content = good and I don't really care who creates it.

 

[klopkr]

I'm so glad they contract modders to do this because the modders do great work. I hope they become even more bold with it.

These packs are no different than the classic outfit and music packs of all the other paradox games, but instead of hiring some random studio they're hiring people from the community that have already shown their talents and interests.

I get that a lot of people are cost sensitive and many people also feel that if they don't have literally all the content for the game then their game is broken. But the entire ethos and strategy of Paradox games and expansions are the very reason we play these games today and can expect them to grow with time.

Most other companies don't sell many DLC and kill their game within 2-3 years. People move on and the games are noticeably barer than most Paradox games become.

I think this current model is good. Their only real issue is maintaining many versions of the game and these fluff packs really don't cause that issue.

Hell I think they should be paying the RICE mod creators to add regional immersion as DLC. I wouldn't even stop at cosmetics. If the company can finance it then it's all the better for the game to grow.

 

[SAS]

you clearly didnt understand the point of this post.

Im fine with the modder making money from their 3d models, they look good and it's fine to sell them as creator pack.

Im not fine with the special buildings being included in the creator pack. So far they're all included in the chapters or the free updates released with each dlc. You didnt have to pay for byzantines attire to have theodosian walls, or abbasids attire to have house of wisdom, wessex attire to have stonehenge. If a modder make new models for all of those they can sell, not sell the buildings themselves tho that's the point of the thread.

If monuments creator pack costs $5 in practice it means to have all content in the game people will have to buy chapter 4 plus monuments and that's $55 instead of $50, that's what it's happening. I'm not complaining about $5 for the 3d models of said monuments, same way I never complained about $5 for clothing in the previous creator packs. But you never needed to buy creator packs if you didnt want to because they're cosmetics.

But you don't need or have to buy the pack, that is what I don't understand about this thread. I get the argument but just don't buy it if you choose not to. What do you lose in game?

 

[prismaticmarcus]

But you don't need or have to buy the pack, that is what I don't understand about this thread. I get the argument but just don't buy it if you choose not to. What do you lose in game?

The bonuses from the buildings. I'm just answering your question. I don't think it's a problem.

 

[Sarsante]

But you don't need or have to buy the pack, that is what I don't understand about this thread. I get the argument but just don't buy it if you choose not to. What do you lose in game?

I want to have the special buildings like I've all of them so far from having all dlcs, except creators pack. I want to have all the content like I've today from buying all chapters.

What they're doing is basically increasing the price of the chapters without changing the price. Because right now the chapters give all the content in the game and it won't anymore. So to have all content I need the chapter + nobody knows how many creators pack will be sold this year with content that was previously part of the chapters. So to have it all it will go from $50, to nobody knows how much, maybe $60, maybe $70, maybe $80.

But if they change the chapter pricing to $60 people would be angry, so they're selling content that was included in the chapter separately.

I don't know how hard it's to understand that, I really don't.

Special buildings have always being part of the chapters or the free updates. I didnt have to buy byzantines attire creator pack to have theodosian walls, or abbasids attire creator pack to have house of wisdom. All special buildings in the game are available for people that have all dlcs included in the chapters. Creators pack are cosmetics, clothing, crowns, that sort of thing.

It's also a precedent to sell more things that were previously part of the chapters as creator packs, like unique MaA, unique economic/military buildings, all of that are part of the chapters so far but if they're selling special buildings well they can sell whatever they want.

 

[klopkr]

The bonuses from the buildings. I'm just answering your question. I don't think it's a problem.

I'm ok with the argument that the game bonuses should be in vanilla and the actual building visuals are in the DLC. I think there are already special buildings without visuals so it wouldn't be a big deal to separate.

 

[SAS]

I want to have the special buildings like I've all of them so far from having all dlcs, except creators pack. I want to have all the content like I've today from buying all chapters.

What they're doing is basically increasing the price of the chapters without changing the price. Because right now the chapters give all the content in the game and it won't anymore. So to have all content I need the chapter + nobody knows how many creators pack will be sold this year with content that was previously part of the chapters. So to have it all it will go from $50, to nobody knows how much, maybe $60, maybe $70, maybe $80.

But if they change the chapter pricing to $60 people would be angry, so they're selling content that was included in the chapter separately.

I don't know how hard it's to understand that, I really don't.

Special buildings have always being part of the chapters or the free updates. I didnt have to buy byzantines attire creator pack to have theodosian walls, or abbasids attire creator pack to have house of wisdom. All special buildings in the game are available for people that have all dlcs included in the chapters. Creators pack are cosmetics, clothing, crowns, that sort of thing.

It's also a precedent to sell more things that were previously part of the chapters as creator packs, like unique MaA, unique economic/military buildings, all of that are part of the chapters so far but if they're selling special buildings well they can sell whatever they want.

I don't work for or speak for PDX, just want to make that clear. As a player I understand the frustration. I personally don't like game passes or buying things that are not release give the game industry in general the past two years. I don't know what to say other than it can be frustrating to not get everything you want, I get that.

 

[Sarsante]

I don't work for or speak for PDX, just want to make that clear. As a player I understand the frustration. I personally don't like game passes or buying things that are not release give the game industry in general the past two years. I don't know what to say other than it can be frustrating to not get everything you want, I get that.

Thanks. I'm just glad you understood what I'm complaining about because most replies seem they didnt even understand.

We can agree, we can disagree it's all fine as long we keep on the subject instead of "This is not a mod being sold" or "Dont you think modders should get paid" like I had to read here which have nothing to do with the discussion.

 

[Sarsante]

The bonuses from the buildings. I'm just answering your question. I don't think it's a problem.

I want to have the special buildings like I've all of them so far from having all dlcs, except creators pack. I want to have all the content like I've today from buying all chapters.

What they're doing is basically increasing the price of the chapters without changing the price. Because right now the chapters give all the content in the game and it won't anymore. So to have all content I need the chapter + nobody knows how many creators pack will be sold this year with content that was previously part of the chapters. So to have it all it will go from $50, to nobody knows how much, maybe $60, maybe $70, maybe $80.

But if they change the chapter pricing to $60 people would be angry, so they're selling content that was included in the chapter separately.

I don't know how hard it's to understand that, I really don't.

Special buildings have always being part of the chapters or the free updates. I didnt have to buy byzantines attire creator pack to have theodosian walls, or abbasids attire creator pack to have house of wisdom. All special buildings in the game are available for people that have all dlcs included in the chapters. Creators pack are cosmetics, clothing, crowns, that sort of thing.

It's also a precedent to sell more things that were previously part of the chapters as creator packs, like unique MaA, unique economic/military buildings, all of that are part of the chapters so far but if they're selling special buildings well they can sell whatever they want.