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PLrc

Major
Sep 29, 2020
521
535
Can somebody explain me why the County of Edessa didn't call itself duchy? County of Edessa was one of the crusader states founded druing the first crusade. It's pretty clear for me why neither the County of Edessa nor the Duchy of Antioch called themselves kingdoms - because they wouldn't obtain a pope's approval of coronation. But why didn't the county call itself a duchy? Ok, Tripoli was small, but Edessa was large. Have you ever wonder?
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No, never wondered.

It was conquered and ruled by a count. It's a county.
 
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I don't think you should confuse size with the title, reality was much more complicated than that. In the PDS games Crusader Kings it is simplified, but compare with for example the prosperous county of Flanders which was one of the most important vassals to the kings of France. The title "duchy" does not necessarily mean a larger territory than a country in terms of surface area. Ultimately "duke" became a more prestigious title than "count", but initially that wasn't necessarily the case. Here the explanation is rather simple, as Abdul pointed out it was a count who ruled it.
 
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It was conquered and ruled by a count. It's a county.
And the Kingdom of Jersusalem was conquered by a king and hence was a kingdom? :) In other words: it doesn't make sense.


I don't think you should confuse size with the title, reality was much more complicated than that. In the PDS games Crusader Kings it is simplified, but compare with for example the prosperous county of Flanders which was one of the most important vassals to the kings of France.
Yes, I know. I do not confuse these two notions since I've discovered that most of what is called duchies in CK in France was in reality counties, like the County of Anjou, the County of Tulouse etc. But one thing is a county which has been existing for hundred of years based on local tradition another is a county/duchy newly founded, especially such a county like Edessa founded in the end of the world, isn't it?

Ultimately "duke" became a more prestigious title than "count", but initially that wasn't necessarily the case. Here the explanation is rather simple
It would be an explanation, but I've read that in some point the duchy of Anioch strived for vassalising the County of Edessa, i.e. the County of Edessa found itself a direct vassal of Jerusalem and the duchy wanted it to acknowledge it's a vassal of Antioch. So it seems in those time the distinction between counties and duchies was already established.
 
And the Kingdom of Jersusalem was conquered by a king and hence was a kingdom? :) In other words: it doesn't make sense.

Kinda, yes. The titular "King of Jerusalem" was Jesus Christ himself, and that's why it was called that. Godfrey de Bouillon's formal title was merely "Protector".

King Jesus has a ring to it. Duke Jesus or Count Jesus not so much.
 
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This is why Jerusalem was elevated to the rank of kingdom - because it was very prestigious and important. Neither Antioch nor Edessa were that prestigious which is why they couldn't hope for the rank of kingdom. But principality/duchy is another story.
 
This is why Jerusalem was elevated to the rank of kingdom - because it was very prestigious and important. Neither Antioch nor Edessa were that prestigious which is why they couldn't hope for the rank of kingdom. But principality/duchy is another story.

Let's try this again. These places are named after the rank of who rules them, not the other way. King Jesus rules Jerusalem, ergo Jerusalem is a kingdom. Count Baldwin rules Edessa, ergo it is a county. Prince Bohemond rules Antioch, ergo it is a principality. Count Raymond rules Tripoli, ergo it is a county.

They were kings, counts & princes before they got to the Outremer.

If they were Tsars, Emirs or Imams, they'd be Tsardoms, Emirates and Imamates.
 
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Kinda, yes. The titular "King of Jerusalem" was Jesus Christ himself, and that's why it was called that. Godfrey de Bouillon's formal title was merely "Protector".

King Jesus has a ring to it. Duke Jesus or Count Jesus not so much.

Isn't there an issue with Jesus "only" being a King? The Emperors in the HRE and ERE would then have higher ranks than Jesus.
 
Isn't there an issue with Jesus "only" being a King? The Emperors in the HRE and ERE would then have higher ranks than Jesus.

No. Kings are sovereign monarchs, wherever they are. "Emperor" is a Roman rank. They're not higher, they are on a separate (republican) hierarchy.

"King Jesus" is a customary motif. Bible talks of the "Kingdom of Heaven", not "Empire of Heaven".
 
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No. Kings are sovereign monarchs, wherever they are. "Emperor" is a Roman rank. They're not higher, they are on a separate (republican) hierarchy.

"King Jesus" is a customary motif. Bible talks of the "Kingdom of Heaven", not "Empire of Heaven".
Of cource emperors saw themselves as higher than kings. That's why German rulers felt instulted when a Polish king crowned himself without the emeperor's permisson. And that was the point in coronation as an emperor by for instance Napoleon - to elevate himself above kings and to be peer to Austrian emperor and Russian tzar.

And it's abviously not true that kings were always sovereign monarchs. Czech kings were always vassals of emperors, unless they were emepeors themselves.
 
No. Kings are sovereign monarchs, wherever they are. "Emperor" is a Roman rank. They're not higher, they are on a separate (republican) hierarchy.
An empire during the Middle Ages pretends to be universal, which isn't the case for kingdoms. See Byzantine diplomacy towards other European realms or how the Carolingian monarchy, followed by the Ottonians and what would be the HRE (even if the term itself is anachronistic), leading to the conflict with the papacy. Just separating an empire from a kingdom by using definitions from Antiquity doesn't take into account the ideological dimension of empires during the Middle Ages, in part inherited from Rome but distinct from their model of government.
Of cource emperors saw themselves as higher than kings. That's why German rulers felt instulted when a Polish king crowned himself without the emeperor's permisson. And that was the point in coronation as an emperor by for instance Napoleon - to elevate himself above kings and to be peer to Austrian emperor and Russian tzar.
Citing Napoleon is completely anachronistic here, but Napoleon was inspired by the Roman example, so you give the point to Abdul there, you are essentially confirming what he said. :p
 
Of cource emperors saw themselves as higher than kings. That's why German rulers felt instulted when a Polish king crowned himself without the emeperor's permisson. And that was the point in coronation as an emperor by for instance Napoleon - to elevate himself above kings and to be peer to Austrian emperor and Russian tzar.

And it's abviously not true that kings were always sovereign monarchs. Czech kings were always vassals of emperors, unless they were emepeors themselves.

If you're referring to Boleslav the Brave in 1025, that's not quite what happened. He was a Polish DUKE, who previously paid homage as vassal to the King of Germany and crowned himself king. There was no emperor at that moment. Indeed, there was no HRE defined yet (it would be subsequently constructed later as three kingdoms - Germany, Italy, Burgundy; with a fourth title of "Emperor" to extend his authority over the Roman-Byzantine regions of Italy (Exarchate of Ravenna & Papal States).

Unlike Duke of Bohemia (which remained a German vassal), Poland got out of German vassalship in the nick of time and so was never part of the HRE.

Napoleon crowned himself emperor because France was republic, and it was the only title consistent with a republic. Like Rome, France got rid of kings.
 
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If you're referring to Boleslav the Brave in 1025, that's not quite what happened. He was a Polish DUKE, who previously paid homage as vassal to the King of Germany
When and where did he exactly pay homage?

@Abdul Goatherd you're creating your own version of history. Already Otto I, Otto II and Otto III were crowned emperors. Many Polish dukes had problem with coronation, becasue emperor felt above kings and considered themselves privileged to conset to coronation.

Also there were many Bohemian kings, not dukes and not emperors, and all of them were vassals of the emperor.
 
When and where did he exactly pay homage?

First time with Mieszko around 963, after the conquest of the Lebusians, when first agreed as a tributary duchy to the German crown. Reiterated several times (e.g. at Quedlinburg in 973), etc. Subsequently with Boleslav at Gniezno in 1000, homage subsequently at various interruptions during the German-Polish war, e.g. Merseburg in 1013 and then again at Bautzen in 1018. It ceases in 1025.

@Abdul Goatherd you're creating your own version of history. Already Otto I, Otto II and Otto III were crowned emperors. Many Polish dukes had problem with coronation, becasue emperor felt above kings and considered themselves privileged to conset to coronation.

Also there were many Bohemian kings, not dukes and not emperors, and all of them were vassals of the emperor.

Emperor is not "above king". That's a modern manner of speaking.

"Emperor" is a title in the Roman hierarchy, rooted in republican institutions, that has nothing to do with kings (Rome doesn't have kings). It is not in the Germanic hierarchy. Germanic monarchs are kings of a folk, or people - Franks, Saxons, Lombards, Burgundians, etc. You are recognized as monarch by acclamation & elevation by the noble barons of the folk.

Lombards are not and have never been under Roman emperors. They have sovereign kings, acclaimed by Lombard barons, crowned with the iron crown of the Lombards in Pavia by the Archbishop of Milan. That's what gives a Lombard king authority over Lombard lords, who fiefs include most (but not all) of Italy, i.e. the Margraviates and Duchies of Milan, Friuli, Tuscany, Spoleto, etc. There is no higher authority.

Similarly, kings of Germany (i.e. East Franks and subjugated Bavarii, Thuringii, Saxons, etc.) are kings, acclaimed by German barons, crowned at Aachen by the Archbishop of Mainz. That's what gives the German king authority over nobles of Franconia, Swabia, Bavaria, Saxony, etc. There is no higher authority.

Similarly, kings of Burgundy are kings, acclaimed by Burgundian barons and crowned at Arles, by the Archbishop of Arles. There is no higher authority.

What is defined as the "HRE" (by Conrad the Salian, the guy who defined it) is the three kingdoms Conrad acquired, by gathering separate acclamations and coronations by the various groups of barons at Mainz, Pavia and Arles. And that is constitutionally what it remained down to 1806 (thus HRE had three chancellors, one for each kingdom - Arbp of Mainz for Germany, Cologne for Italy, Trier for Burgundy, etc.)

There is, in addition a fourth title, the Roman imperial title, acquired by Conrad, which allowed him to exert sovereign authority over non-Lombard territories in Italy, i.e. the Romano-Byzantine lands of the Exarchate and the Papal States. You cannot be "king" over Romans, because Romans don't have kings. You need a title in the Roman hierarchy. Pepin was granted the title of Patricius, Charlemagne that of Imperator. So was Otto. Henry I was not. But Conrad was. And this is not particularly unique. Barbarian rulers over Romans in Britain and Romans in North Africa were also granted the "Imperator" title by local Roman authorities.

The title of "Roman Emperor" is a title bestowed by the Senate and People of Rome (SPQR), and crowned by the Pope at St. Peter's in Rome.

Emperor is not "above". It is separate. A Lombard lord will not recognize a Roman emperor as his sovereign. His sovereign is the King of the Lombards. Roman titles have zero authority over Lombards, and never have. And although Burgundian barons soon dispensed with the ceremony at Arles, and allowed the monarch to be crowned together with Germany at Aachen, Lombards did not. Until the 16th Century, you had to go all the way down to be crowned in Pavia, otherwise you are not.

Similarly, you have to go down to Rome to be crowned Roman emperor, otherwise you are not - you are merely "Emperor-elect"

So HRE collects four titles - King of Germany, King of Italy (Lombards), King of Burgundy, and Roman Emperor, three kingdoms plus extra bit. They are not above each other. They represent different areas, different folks. "HRE" is merely shorthand for all that.

These are the four titles acquired by Conrad, that remained definitive, and the basis of the constitutional structure of the HRE, which he was the first to define and remain unchanged since.

Later HR Emperors could acquire more titles and lands - and often did, e.g. King of Sicily, King of Hungary, etc. but as neither Sicily nor Hungary are part of the original Conradian titles, they were never part of the HRE, and never integrated into its structures. Similarly, Poland, which had once been a vassal duchy of the German king, slipped the noose before Conrad, and was never part of the HRE.

By contrast, the Duke of Bohemia remained a vassal of the German kingdom of Conrad, and thus became part of the HRE. The title of "king" was granted much later to Bohemian dukes as a courtesy title, but Bohemia always remained part of HRE.

Make sense?
 
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First time with Mieszko around 963, after the conquest of the Lebusians, when first agreed as a tributary duchy to the German crown. Reiterated several times (e.g. at Quedlinburg in 973), etc. Subsequently with Boleslav at Gniezno in 1000, homage subsequently at various interruptions during the German-Polish war, e.g. Merseburg in 1013 and then again at Bautzen in 1018. It ceases in 1025.
Mieszko and Bolesław the Brave paid tribute to the emperor from "the land to the west of Warta river". Historians are not sure what it meant exactly. So I think we could call them vassals of emperors from that land, similarly like English kings were vassals of French kings from their land in France. But it seems to me I've never read or heard that they paid homage from their entire country and hence they wern't vassals of emeperors from their entire country (apart form that the rite of paying homage may have been not shaped yet in those times). But I'm not a historian so I may be wrong.

I don't want to comment the rest of that stream of consciousness. You may be right that the rank of emperor stemed from the title of rulers of Rome in lieu of the title of king. But what you are trying to prove here is essentially that 2+2 is not equal to 4. Emperors for at least something like 90% of their history considered themselves and were considered higher than kings, what is proved by the fact that Bohemian kings like Vratislav II, Ottokar II and Vaclav II were all vassals of the emperor.

Not to mention much subsequent kingdoms like Bavaria and Saxony.
 
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Mieszko and Bolesław the Brave paid tribute to the emperor from "the land to the west of Warta river". Historians are not sure what it meant exactly. So I think we could call them vassals of emperors from that land, similarly like English kings were vassals of French kings from their land in France. But it seems to me I've never read or heard that they paid homage from their entire country and hence they wern't vassals of emeperors from their entire country (apart form that the rite of paying homage may have been not shaped yet in those times). But I'm not a historian so I may be wrong.

I am pretty sure German kings had absolutely no idea how far Polish dominions stretched. But that's not really relevant. The title of "Duke of Poland" is as a vassal to the German king, which entails certain personal obligations. The title "King of Poland" does not.

The King of England was not a vassal. The Duke of Normandy, Aquitaine, Count of Poitou, etc. was. They happen to be the same person and that means that person has certain subordinate obligations to the King of France. Which includes responding to summons, referring quarrels, etc.

I don't want to comment the rest of that stream of consciousness.

Just trying to teach a little Dark Age legal history.

You may be right that the rank of emperor stemed from the title of rulers of Rome in lieu of the title of king. But what you are trying to prove here is essentially that 2+2 is not equal to 4. Emperors for at least something like 90% of their history considered themselves and were considered higher than kings, what is proved by the fact that Bohemian kings like Vratislav II, Ottokar II and Vaclav II were all vassals of the emperor.

Not to mention much subsequent kingdoms like Bavaria and Saxony.

There is loose usage in modern language. But I am curious where you get this 90% of history bit.

The term "king" is sovereign. There is no higher authority. That's the definition of "sovereign".

"King" and "Emperor" are not in relation to each other. They are two different titles, on two separate hierarchy ladders. It's like asking whether a gallon is more than a meter.

Is King Romulus less exalted than Emperor Augustus? If anything, Romans thought the opposite. Woe betide the emperor who took on the pretensions of king.

Heck, Byzantine emperors (jealous of Persians) thought it so exalted they switched usage from "Autokrator" (emperor) to "Basileos" (king).

Admittedly, Bohemia is a little on the exceptional side, and when it was upgraded it was allowed to write itself out of most of the HRE structures. But not sure what you mean by Bavaria & Saxony - they were not kingdoms until after the end of the HRE.
 
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First time with Mieszko around 963, after the conquest of the Lebusians, when first agreed as a tributary duchy to the German crown. Reiterated several times (e.g. at Quedlinburg in 973), etc. Subsequently with Boleslav at Gniezno in 1000, homage subsequently at various interruptions during the German-Polish war, e.g. Merseburg in 1013 and then again at Bautzen in 1018. It ceases in 1025.



Emperor is not "above king". That's a modern manner of speaking.

"Emperor" is a title in the Roman hierarchy, rooted in republican institutions, that has nothing to do with kings (Rome doesn't have kings). It is not in the Germanic hierarchy. Germanic monarchs are kings of a folk, or people - Franks, Saxons, Lombards, Burgundians, etc. You are recognized as monarch by acclamation & elevation by the noble barons of the folk.

Lombards are not and have never been under Roman emperors. They have sovereign kings, acclaimed by Lombard barons, crowned with the iron crown of the Lombards in Pavia by the Archbishop of Milan. That's what gives a Lombard king authority over Lombard lords, who fiefs include most (but not all) of Italy, i.e. the Margraviates and Duchies of Milan, Friuli, Tuscany, Spoleto, etc. There is no higher authority.

Similarly, kings of Germany (i.e. East Franks and subjugated Bavarii, Thuringii, Saxons, etc.) are kings, acclaimed by German barons, crowned at Aachen by the Archbishop of Mainz. That's what gives the German king authority over nobles of Franconia, Swabia, Bavaria, Saxony, etc. There is no higher authority.

Similarly, kings of Burgundy are kings, acclaimed by Burgundian barons and crowned at Arles, by the Archbishop of Arles. There is no higher authority.

What is defined as the "HRE" (by Conrad the Salian, the guy who defined it) is the three kingdoms Conrad acquired, by gathering separate acclamations and coronations by the various groups of barons at Mainz, Pavia and Arles. And that is constitutionally what it remained down to 1806 (thus HRE had three chancellors, one for each kingdom - Arbp of Mainz for Germany, Cologne for Italy, Trier for Burgundy, etc.)

There is, in addition a fourth title, the Roman imperial title, acquired by Conrad, which allowed him to exert sovereign authority over non-Lombard territories in Italy, i.e. the Romano-Byzantine lands of the Exarchate and the Papal States. You cannot be "king" over Romans, because Romans don't have kings. You need a title in the Roman hierarchy. Pepin was granted the title of Patricius, Charlemagne that of Imperator. So was Otto. Henry I was not. But Conrad was. And this is not particularly unique. Barbarian rulers over Romans in Britain and Romans in North Africa were also granted the "Imperator" title by local Roman authorities.

The title of "Roman Emperor" is a title bestowed by the Senate and People of Rome (SPQR), and crowned by the Pope at St. Peter's in Rome.

Emperor is not "above". It is separate. A Lombard lord will not recognize a Roman emperor as his sovereign. His sovereign is the King of the Lombards. Roman titles have zero authority over Lombards, and never have. And although Burgundian barons soon dispensed with the ceremony at Arles, and allowed the monarch to be crowned together with Germany at Aachen, Lombards did not. Until the 16th Century, you had to go all the way down to be crowned in Pavia, otherwise you are not.

Similarly, you have to go down to Rome to be crowned Roman emperor, otherwise you are not - you are merely "Emperor-elect"

So HRE collects four titles - King of Germany, King of Italy (Lombards), King of Burgundy, and Roman Emperor, three kingdoms plus extra bit. They are not above each other. They represent different areas, different folks. "HRE" is merely shorthand for all that.

These are the four titles acquired by Conrad, that remained definitive, and the basis of the constitutional structure of the HRE, which he was the first to define and remain unchanged since.

Later HR Emperors could acquire more titles and lands - and often did, e.g. King of Sicily, King of Hungary, etc. but as neither Sicily nor Hungary are part of the original Conradian titles, they were never part of the HRE, and never integrated into its structures. Similarly, Poland, which had once been a vassal duchy of the German king, slipped the noose before Conrad, and was never part of the HRE.

By contrast, the Duke of Bohemia remained a vassal of the German kingdom of Conrad, and thus became part of the HRE. The title of "king" was granted much later to Bohemian dukes as a courtesy title, but Bohemia always remained part of HRE.

Make sense?

that's true in the western tradition, in the east (which had far less of an aversion to kingship then the traditional roman heartland) the title of the junior emperor (caesar) overtime became interchangeable with king (basileos) as of such the senior emperor was seen as a superior over kings

this was turned on it's head when russia claimed emperorship but took the title of caesar instead of augustus since they deemed king a higher title then emperor because david was crowned king by god and emperor was a mere man-made title
 
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