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Even if of a possible CK2 would be unwilling to include a feature like that, at the very least, please please, seperate the age of maturity from the age of conception and don't hardcode the former so that a least modders could change the age when marriages become possible.

But seriously, if the allegation of child abuse is a concern, that's plainly ridiculous and pure hipocrisy in a game that allows, among other things, the pillaging of counties "to leave the populace without a piece of bread to last the winter" and cold-blooded, premeditated child-murder. But of course, murdering infants is so much more socially acceptable than prearranging marriages for children. :wacko:
 
You can think that it is ridiculous, and maybe even Paradox thinks it is ridiculous ... but the problem is external opinions and factors. And even though war-mongering, pillaging, murder are allowed in the game, for many people that is a whole lot different than arranging a marriage of your 6-year old daughter to a 55-year old nobleman .... whether or not that is a realistic feature in medieval noble society.

It is a moot discussion, as I am sure Paradox will NEVER allow marriages to happen until the children are 16.

Now if CK2 would have a feature where you can promise your child away to someone, once they reach age of maturity, that is a different matter.

But really ... is the feature of child marriages needed in the game??
 
Geez, are you guys maybe a little too hung up on this? You start sounding like the Man/Boy-Love Association here. Do you really find it necessary to include each and every action of medieval kings into a computer game? Is the game only fun if you can do EXACTLY everything that the kings of old did? :confused:
 
... And even though war-mongering, pillaging, murder are allowed in the game, for many people that is a whole lot different than arranging a marriage of your 6-year old daughter to a 55-year old nobleman .... whether or not that is a realistic feature in medieval noble society....
Now if CK2 would have a feature where you can promise your child away to someone, once they reach age of maturity, that is a different matter...

And I suggested nothing else than to be able to get a marriage promise that only actually happens latter...

But speaking of murder :cool:
Nearly every action has a responsetime - e.g. if I offer someone vassalization it takes time until he responds. If I offer marriage it takes time until I get a response. That´s good and historical as in medieval times with no real roads and the fastest way to transport messages overland a rider on a horse that´s perfectly o.k.
Only assasinations are immediate successes or failures.
Instant teleportation in medieval times? Ninja powers? :D

I think sending an assasin should take at least as long the other actions. Or *at the very least* don´t allow another assasin to be sent until the next day. In my current game I went on a murdering spree seeing that my Intrigue (+spymaster) was more than double that of the target ruler, so I assasinated my way until my heir was also his heir. 3 dead possible heirs on the same day. Perhaps good for actionmovies like "Kill Bill" - but unforgivable in medieval times :rolleyes:
 
I agree with the above, it doesn't add much to the game to have marriage arrangements. I feel it has a rather realistic feel to it as it is, I monitor any prospective brides that have yet to turn 16 and usually try to build a better relationship with their liege during their younger years so I can ask for their hand when they turn 16. I simply regard that period of monitoring as courting and pre-marital arrangements between myself and the liege without there being a specific agreement in game terms between us.

If you have to add realism like that you must include other marital rules such as characters not being able to marry if they have ecclestial education (monastic vows), no marriages concluded during lent or advent and marriages involving widows being very rare (since they usually would take a vow of celibacy upon the death of their spouse).
 
You can think that it is ridiculous, and maybe even Paradox thinks it is ridiculous ... but the problem is external opinions and factors. And even though war-mongering, pillaging, murder are allowed in the game, for many people that is a whole lot different than arranging a marriage of your 6-year old daughter to a 55-year old nobleman .... whether or not that is a realistic feature in medieval noble society.

Agreed. But self-censure to avoid giving offense to hypocrites is a way to make certain that the hypocrites prevail.

But that's a topic well past and beyond CK.
 
But I guess a feature of "promising the hand" of my daughter to the Crown prince of Germany, so they will marry when she reaches maturity, could be a way to go.

Imagine if the strong-willed girl suddenly decided to resist daddy's wishes and run off with her love, the fosterling bastard child of the Duke of no-where :) .. there could be implications beyond just the girl running off to some court somewhere ... but also the pissed-off Prince of Germany and/or his father with whom you made the arrangement.

That is what the game needs ... lots more internal court intrigue .. as well as cross-court intrigue :D
 
This thema remembers me people who are absolutely revolted to see the nazi svastika on a german panzer in a computer game about second world war.
Of course holocaust, child abuse, etc... are afwul things we must fight, i'm sure that most people understand that and are also individualy able to make the difference between historical context and taboos of our society. But we live in such a judiciarised (not sure of this word sorry i'm not english native) society that no one dares to speak about taboos by fear to finish at the courtyard and to be seen as a monster.
It's not only about child abuse, there are tons of taboo themas in our so called "modern" society.
I personally think that as long as the discussion stays intelligent and respectful, we can and should discuss about everything.
I understand that paradox won't take the risk to finish at the courtyard for a pc game.
But i think it's healthy for a society that people have the courage of a reflection about its taboos. Else, we incur the danger of a totally irrationnal thought and behavior which would not be more worth, from our "modern occidental" point of view, than these "dark ages" morals and beliefs form the middle age.

Discussing and thinking about something does not mean that you support it. We should always be free to speak about everything if we don't want to finish in a dictature. Even people who say awful or silly things should have the right to speak, even if they are obviously wrong.

"I don't agree with what you say, but i will fight until the death to protect your right to say it"
Voltaire


Edit : Ah, and i forgot : maybe in 500 years, people who will study our 21th century society will think we were absolute barbarians monsters, and the taboo will be so strong that they won't even dare to discuss about it. Let's always keep that in mind.
 
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But I guess a feature of "promising the hand" of my daughter to the Crown prince of Germany, so they will marry when she reaches maturity, could be a way to go.

Imagine if the strong-willed girl suddenly decided to resist daddy's wishes and run off with her love, the fosterling bastard child of the Duke of no-where :) .. there could be implications beyond just the girl running off to some court somewhere ... but also the pissed-off Prince of Germany and/or his father with whom you made the arrangement.

That is what the game needs ... lots more internal court intrigue .. as well as cross-court intrigue :D

Agree totally here. Promising the hand of a daughter sounds actually like a fun action for a game like CK. I can lead to so many fun events. (Crusader Kings Family Life: Putting the "fun" in dysfunctional! :D) Just not that you marry her rightaway. That's ewwwww. Besides, the AI would just marry all kids at the minimum age already.

Imagine how fun it would be if you had claims not just on provinces but also on daughters?? The prince of Germany declared war and demands our daughter plus 50 gold?? :D:D
 
Agree totally here. Promising the hand of a daughter sounds actually like a fun action for a game like CK. I can lead to so many fun events. (Crusader Kings Family Life: Putting the "fun" in dysfunctional! :D) Just not that you marry her rightaway. That's ewwwww. Besides, the AI would just marry all kids at the minimum age already.

Imagine how fun it would be if you had claims not just on provinces but also on daughters?? The prince of Germany declared war and demands our daughter plus 50 gold?? :D:D

It could lead to an assasination. Think of Otto of Wittelbach who slew the father of the bride, that was promised to him when she was only 5 years old, - when said father suddenly later decided that his daughter better would marry his defeated enemy to bind him to his cause.

The english wiki sadly only says that he refused to give Otto the hand of his daughter:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philipp_von_Schwaben

but the german wiki has more info about poor Otto who got deprived of his promised bride and then declared an outlaw and executed after taking revenge upon the treacherous father:
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philipp_von_Schwaben

The bride (Beatrix von Schwaben) did not seem to like the whole events as they were because she survived the marriage when she became 14 with the wrong man only 21 days before she also died...

Promises. Romance. Intrigue. And assasination. Have I mentioned that I would like marriage promises between rulers even before the age of 16? :D
 
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...
I understand that paradox won't take the risk to finish at the courtyard for a pc game.
But i think it's healthy for a society that people have the courage of a reflection about its taboos. Else, we incur the danger of a totally irrationnal thought and behavior which would not be more worth, from our "modern occidental" point of view, than these "dark ages" morals and beliefs form the middle age....

Which raises the question for me what Paradox has to fear. I mean the game currently is rated PEGI 3+/USK with NO age restriction. So the game as it is now with Deus Vult is according to this rating a game suitable and not harmful to newborn babies.

If a CK II due to a change like a marriage promise before the age of 16 gets a rating of say PEGI 7+/USK 6+
then what would to be feared? The game could still be sold freely as long as in Germany the rating is not more than 16+ and I don´t think many children of less than 7 years are potential buyers of a game like Crusader Kings.
 
I don't know what I would rather see: Victoria 2 or Crusader Kings 2!

:wacko:

To be honest I'd probably favor Vicky 2 (sorry guys), but both of them seem like surefire 'to dos' in the future.

Of course, it could be a decade before they come out, but I can't see them never producing a sequel to such a popular game.

One thing I really pine for is a game that combines CK and EU! (Heresy!)

Of course the game mechanics for the one arn't compatable with the other, but it would be interesting if the game started out with dynasties and feudal groups being the true powerbase (ala CK) which then, over time slowly transformed into a more EU3 nations driven game (lesser need for vassals which over time gives the rulers greater dimense (sp?).

Especially if the game were fluid enough that every 'nation' in the CK portion of the game that survived long enough would be its own nation in the EU part, whith accepted cultures, cores and religion based on what it has held over time.

That way the EU part could still benefit from a greater character system of CK while CK would get some improvements as well. Hopefully boats would be high up on that list. :rofl:

Of course this could also be easily done by just having CK2 and EU3 (or 4) coming with a fully supported and designed converter tool.
 
Improvements for a future (hopefully) CK2. Just my oh-so humble ideas...

More control over your court and more intrigue. Create a new game "idea" called "Plots". Each plot has a chance to succeed depending on your characters stats and each plot has repercussions if you fail. Each plot takes X amount of time and costs Y amount of gold. A character gets X amount of plots per year depending on his intrigue, but no more than 3 or 4 max. For example, right now, pretty much the only way to get rid of a useless courtier is to kill him/her or give them a county. It would be nice if the player had more options. You should be able to banish people from your court if they are heathens, for example, or excommunicated. This could fit in to the court intrigue and game play. Examples...

Plot A - Accuse courtier of heresy. If you have a courtier that you want to get rid of, instead of whacking him, spend 50 gold and create a "plot" to bribe your bishop to petition the pope to excommunicate them, so you can banish them. Maybe your bishop is too pious or honest to do this and refuses, making his loyalty drop or even asking the pope to excommunicate you instead. Maybe the bishop won't do it for 50 gold but would be happy to do it for 250 gold.

Plot B - Accuse courtier of treason. You should be able to ask your spymaster to frame a courtier, accusing him of treason, theft, whatever. You spend X amount of gold to create the plot and then hope it works. If it fails, you lose lose prestige and piety, gain a rival, etc.. If the spymaster succeeds, you should be able to choose from a few options - 1) behead him, lose piety and gain trait cruel 2) banish him forever, lose prestige and gain a rival, 3) banish him, but only for X amount of years, gain trait forgiving and piety bonus.

Plot C - Accuse your wife of infidelity. Spend X amount of gold to create the plot with your spymaster. Then spend X amount of gold to bribe your wives handmaidens to accuse her of infidelity. The more gold you spend, the more likely you are to succeed but there should still be a decent chance of failure. If you fail, your wife becomes a rival and takes a huge loyalty hit. Your vulnerability to assassination increases.

Plot D - Recruit a relative from another court. Spend X amount of gold to create the plot with your spymaster. If a member of your bloodline is a courtier in another court, and has martial 23, offer him X amount of gold to join your court and become your marshall. Your spymaster will show him fake evidence of how his current liege is plotting against him. Again, the more you offer, the more likely you are to succeed. If you fail the liege of that court becomes your rival and conspires with your relative to gain a claim on your title...or whatever.

The options for plots are endless, so thinking up a few more should be no problem. 5-10 "Plot" options would give the player more control, more options, and something else to spend money on besides building and upkeep.

Another thing, your advisers should get a loyalty bonus. Being appointed to your court should increase their monthly loyalty and give you a one-time loyalty bonus. Dismissing a courtier should have the same effect but in reverse. For example, Steward A is aging and has become ill. Steward B is now a better choice. A has loyalty 100, B has loyalty 67. You appoint B as your new Steward, B gains a 25 point loyalty bonus and +.5 loyalty per month. A loses 50 loyalty and -.5 loyalty per month forever or for a limited amount of time. So swapping advisors around willy-nilly has consequences. Have more random events that lower/raise loyalty within the court.

One more thing, since a player can bribe/reward his vassals, why not his courtiers? It wold be nice if I could spend 50 gold to increase my spymasters loyalty by 50 points. The catch being that it becomes less and less effective over time. First time 50 Gold = 50 Loyalty. Second Time 50 Gold = 25 Loyalty. Third Time 50 Gold = 10 Loyalty. Fourth time 50 Gold = 5 Loyalty and thats it, no more bribes. Reset when you have a new liege in charge of the court.
 
There's still no discussion of if/when there might be a CK2 from Paradox Dev, right?

They're kinda all hands on deck for HOI3, it seems. But after that? Then what? I wish they'd followed through with releasing the source code for their older games - it would mean that we could have had a warring states period China game using the CK model by now...
 
They're kinda all hands on deck for HOI3, it seems. But after that? Then what? I wish they'd followed through with releasing the source code for their older games - it would mean that we could have had a warring states period China game using the CK model by now...

They have released it, you just need to request the source code by making a business plan etc and then they'll give you the license and code.
 
Since I haven't read all 19 pages of this thread yet, I don't know if these things have been brought up.

I would prefer more options and focus on your laws.

Like for example being able to have different laws of succession for your different titles. Let's say you have two king titles. Then one of your king titles might be passed on by primogeniture laws and the other passed on through elective law so that when your rules passes away one of the titles goes to the eldest son while the other goes to the strongest vassal. This way certain titles might be tied to your dynasty while others are tied to your status in the realm. This of course means you would have to micromanage a lot more, especially if you have lots of titles, making it more challenging to control large demesnes and empires.

I also think changing laws should also come with more penalties and restrictions, like a prestige cost depending on the size of your realm, making it very difficult to suddenly change the laws of succession in a vast empire.

I also think the succession in elective law should take prestige into account, not just titles and martial ability. If elective law is to reflect the situation where local nobles would elect a new king from their ranks then why would they necessarily pick that inexperienced and uncivilized youngster that the former ruler simply passed on a duke title to over a reputable, respected and well known noble that have served the realm for years. So for example a steward or marshall that served the king for a very long time and collected lots of prestige might end up being elected to succeed the king over someone with a title.

I suppose all of these things might be possible to adopt in a mod...doesn't really require that much change to the core of the game.
 
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To be honest I'd probably favor Vicky 2 (sorry guys), but both of them seem like surefire 'to dos' in the future.

If Paradox made Vicky 2 they would just end up dumbing it down and axing historical events, even Johann has stated he regrets making it so daunting and doesn't even play it more based on that fact. Vicky is a perfect game for its time and doesn't really need a sequel yet. At this point it would be mainly UI and graphics improvements mostly.

CK on the other hand was an unfinished gem. Paradox only got a few months with it, imagine what they could do with a 1-2 years of development working off the EU3 engine and Rome's character system.