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MattyG said:
Well, the so-called 'break-up' of France is instead going back and recognising that there was no France in 1419. Well, there was a France, but it was a smallish country based around Il de France, Champagne etc. The south spoke a different language. I think this is one good starting point for 'culture' as EU2 uses it.

The problem we face is that in EU2 is that either a culture is the same as the national culture(s) or different, and one standard, uniform detriment is layered on to the wrong culture provinces and the Stab cost for the country. So, Finland owning a province with Mesoamerican apparently have the same governance problems as Anglosaxons governing Gaelic. While there are undoubtedly cultural differences between north and south German groups, between the Swabish and Hessians, between the people of upper Gunstadt and lower Grunstadt, these cannot be fit within the EU culture straightjacket.

This is why I have suggested earlier and in other fora that we need to use other mechanisms. The manpower reduction, -30% to tax and RR increases are simply too strong for the differences between the regions of Germany, when this is the standard for Chinese governing Arabs etc.

Accordingly, I urge again that we consider instead having event-generated effects. When the Hansa control certain southern states, it would trigger an event giving them a permanent RR of +1 in those provinces (an effect that would only apply to them when they owned them).

The cultural difference you describe that are tied to the reformation are alreadu taken into acount in that those provinces change their religion, which creates a similar situation in regards to RR and therefore taxation reduction. To layer that on top of cultural difference would certainly create a state of constant revolt where northern German culture nations owned southern german catholic provinces, and vice versa.

Oh, and for everyone else, Mikl and I are brothers, which is why we are giving one another a hard time. :rofl:

Yo Bro'

I take your point that the religious game mechanism brought on by the Reformation is probably enough to provide a difference between the various bits of germany. (Surely then this is enough for the french territories?)

But (and there is always a But) germany did not exist in 1419 either, and every region spoke it's own dialects of german, often indistinguishable from the hochdeutsch spoken today.

I guess I would be a little nervous about splitting the large contingent of french culture provinces, without splitting the large and rich collection of german culture provinces, using Events as the mechnism or not. There is a balance there.

Interesting discussion anyway.
 
The difference in terms of France and Germany is that, in reality, Germany did not exist while France did. So the lack (in Aberration) of a unifying force can be used to explain breaking up French, but not German.

In terms of the Celtic/Gaelic countries and possibly the Scottish foray into Norway... Gaelic and Scandinavian cultuires probably do need to be split up. Gaelic could be split three ways - Irish, Breton, and Scottish - with Wales going in any of those directions (although, assuming te original Aberration history, with no Norman conquest to unify "anglosaxon" culture, Wales might actually be similar to England itself).

There are quite a few cultures in-game that could be cannibalized because they belong only to "natives" and are not available to any nation-states... Canarian for example.

If French is split up, I see no problem with Brittany keeping one part of it (probably the one that the west coast falls into, as that's where it gets cores on) and possibly having a culture-conversion event for Normandy, which also falls into its sphere.
 
Sheridan said:
The difference in terms of France and Germany is that, in reality, Germany did not exist while France did. So the lack (in Aberration) of a unifying force can be used to explain breaking up French, but not German.

In terms of the Celtic/Gaelic countries and possibly the Scottish foray into Norway... Gaelic and Scandinavian cultuires probably do need to be split up. Gaelic could be split three ways - Irish, Breton, and Scottish - with Wales going in any of those directions (although, assuming te original Aberration history, with no Norman conquest to unify "anglosaxon" culture, Wales might actually be similar to England itself).

There are quite a few cultures in-game that could be cannibalized because they belong only to "natives" and are not available to any nation-states... Canarian for example.

If French is split up, I see no problem with Brittany keeping one part of it (probably the one that the west coast falls into, as that's where it gets cores on) and possibly having a culture-conversion event for Normandy, which also falls into its sphere.

Then again, because this IS Aberrated, we can deal with alternates, not reproduce what happened.

We could postulate differing German culture groups because Germany 'never did' form up and the smaller states managed to stay separate and different, even by Aberrated Year 2005. If we wanted to, right?

So, disregarding what eventually happened in the real world, many small cultures could be introduced: Swabish, Bavarian, Hessian, Rhinelander. It would certainly reduce the attractiveness of trying to create an blob in the centre of Europe, with all those provinces being wrongculture. And if it was created, the resulting major power would be that less powerful, with reduced income and manpower. I think that could work very very well indeed.

Suddenly, I'm in my brother's camp. I guess it was just the South-North German concept I didn't like so much.
 
I guess the german culture could be split up, I wouldn't mind. Gaelic culture could be split in irish, scottish and breton, since all three nations are great powers. Wales could start with breton culture, but if Eire inherit it could be changed to irish. If Eire inherit Wales Midlands should in that case remain anglosaxon. Midlands should be able to turn to breton if it's owned by Eire or Brittany.

Breaking up scandinavian culture is harder. For gameplay reasons a separate norwegian culture could be a good idea. But then we need to give that culture to the Kalmar Union too, if we want them to get a possibility to conquer Norway. Personally I think that some areas in Norway could be able to revolt to Kalmar Union if Scotland inherit. (jämtland, lappland and narvik perhaps).

I still think the best idea for France is a split in french and occitan, and maybe provencal for Savoie. Should we split the italian culture? North and south italian are still relatively distinct from each other. Could also stop Genoa and Sicily from beating eachother to death.
 
yourworstnightm said:
I guess the german culture could be split up, I wouldn't mind. Gaelic culture could be split in irish, scottish and breton, since all three nations are great powers. Wales could start with breton culture, but if Eire inherit it could be changed to irish. If Eire inherit Wales Midlands should in that case remain anglosaxon. Midlands should be able to turn to breton if it's owned by Eire or Brittany.

Breaking up scandinavian culture is harder. For gameplay reasons a separate norwegian culture could be a good idea. But then we need to give that culture to the Kalmar Union too, if we want them to get a possibility to conquer Norway. Personally I think that some areas in Norway could be able to revolt to Kalmar Union if Scotland inherit. (jämtland, lappland and narvik perhaps).

I still think the best idea for France is a split in french and occitan, and maybe provencal for Savoie. Should we split the italian culture? North and south italian are still relatively distinct from each other. Could also stop Genoa and Sicily from beating eachother to death.


I don't think the culture change in Italy would prevent Sicily and Genoa from beating one another to death. To achieve that you would need to edit the .ai file which tells each of them to attack the other. This overrides other concerns. I also don't think that culture is taken into account by the ai when making war decisions, as well evidenced by ai nations grabbing provinces in far flung locations (I always loved my early Russia game where I created Finland, and they got involved in my wars in the south and eventually kept building this small empire in the middle east).
 
Provencal might be more accurate than occitan for Savoy, but I don't think it would do much in gameplay terms. Savoy would get occitan fairly soon anyway, and countries like Burgundy which are likely to take over Savoy won't get occitan or provencal.

Kalmar could start with norwegian, but if they fail to take over Norway and the Norwegians are assimilated into Scotland, they should lose the culture as the Norwegians' loyalties are now clear.

The constant fighting between Genoa and Sicily is both intentional and logical. They are bitter rivals in trade, control of the Italian peninsula and surrounding islands, naval power in the Mediterranean, and colonisation of the Americas, and one of Genoa's great ambitions is to seize Sicily for itself (cf epo_med). Having a unified Italian culture is fine, as apart from Sicily proper and the city of Genoa, the Italians probably wouldn't have much preference for one power over the other.

The HRE mayhem is another matter - it should be possible for Swabia and Bavaria to coexist to some extent, at least until the Reformation, but at the moment the survival of both up to 1520 in decent shape is a very rare occurrence. The whole HRE is going to need some serious redesigning unless we want the Thirty Years' War to start in 1419.

Another cultural comment: ugric culture is completely wrong, and should be renamed 'finnish' or 'suomi' or something along those lines. The only significant Ugric population west of the Urals is in Hungary. Unsurprisingly, Finns and Estonians belong to the Finnic branch of the Finno-Ugric language family - the mistake probably came from a misinterpretation of the word 'Finno-Ugric'.
 
Incompetent said:
Provencal might be more accurate than occitan for Savoy, but I don't think it would do much in gameplay terms. Savoy would get occitan fairly soon anyway, and countries like Burgundy which are likely to take over Savoy won't get occitan or provencal.

Kalmar could start with norwegian, but if they fail to take over Norway and the Norwegians are assimilated into Scotland, they should lose the culture as the Norwegians' loyalties are now clear.

The constant fighting between Genoa and Sicily is both intentional and logical. They are bitter rivals in trade, control of the Italian peninsula and surrounding islands, naval power in the Mediterranean, and colonisation of the Americas, and one of Genoa's great ambitions is to seize Sicily for itself (cf epo_med). Having a unified Italian culture is fine, as apart from Sicily proper and the city of Genoa, the Italians probably wouldn't have much preference for one power over the other.

The HRE mayhem is another matter - it should be possible for Swabia and Bavaria to coexist to some extent, at least until the Reformation, but at the moment the survival of both up to 1520 in decent shape is a very rare occurrence. The whole HRE is going to need some serious redesigning unless we want the Thirty Years' War to start in 1419.

Another cultural comment: ugric culture is completely wrong, and should be renamed 'finnish' or 'suomi' or something along those lines. The only significant Ugric population west of the Urals is in Hungary. Unsurprisingly, Finns and Estonians belong to the Finnic branch of the Finno-Ugric language family - the mistake probably came from a misinterpretation of the word 'Finno-Ugric'.

Interesting on the Ugric culture issue. I guess throwing one Ugric culture in the Balkans would keep it interesting down there .... he he he

On the subject of Swabia/Bavaria and Sicily/Genoa I think it is critical that both of these 'blocks' eventually have a detente event. No nations have gone 400 years of constant war, which is what currently happens between the German powers and the Italian powers. Unless one completely wins the war (not common outside of player-led countries) and the pattern becomes a little tedious, and too easy for players of neighbouring countries to exploit.

For the Italians, the event should probably originate with the Pope/Papal states. 1600 to 1650 is about the right time, when both are now trying anyway to get involved in the New World. The pope decrees a partition of the Italian states and gives half to Sicily and half to Genoa, with Rome independent in the middle. The event would not trigger if either of the two was already the waaaay dominant power, of course. It would also trigger ai changes for both that would delete one another from the enemy nations section, removal of overlapping cores. Peace in their time.

Ditto for Swabia/Bavaria, but at the end of the 30 Years War era. Some division, accompanied by altered ai, division of cores with none overlapping and their relations reset to 200. A Peace Treaty flavoured event, The Treaty of Flemsburgsteinhoffen or somesuch.
 
MattyG said:
Interesting on the Ugric culture issue. I guess throwing one Ugric culture in the Balkans would keep it interesting down there .... he he he

On the subject of Swabia/Bavaria and Sicily/Genoa I think it is critical that both of these 'blocks' eventually have a detente event. No nations have gone 400 years of constant war, which is what currently happens between the German powers and the Italian powers. Unless one completely wins the war (not common outside of player-led countries) and the pattern becomes a little tedious, and too easy for players of neighbouring countries to exploit.

For the Italians, the event should probably originate with the Pope/Papal states. 1600 to 1650 is about the right time, when both are now trying anyway to get involved in the New World. The pope decrees a partition of the Italian states and gives half to Sicily and half to Genoa, with Rome independent in the middle. The event would not trigger if either of the two was already the waaaay dominant power, of course. It would also trigger ai changes for both that would delete one another from the enemy nations section, removal of overlapping cores. Peace in their time.

Ditto for Swabia/Bavaria, but at the end of the 30 Years War era. Some division, accompanied by altered ai, division of cores with none overlapping and their relations reset to 200. A Peace Treaty flavoured event, The Treaty of Flemsburgsteinhoffen or somesuch.

There already is - it's called 'magyar', which is absolutely fine as it's what the Hungarians call themselves.

The Pope's deal is a really good idea, though it would not be a panacea - Byzantium may interfere in Italy, Milan may get inherited by Swabia and Hungary will still want Istria and Veneto; furthermore none of these is guaranteed to be Catholic. The process should be started by whoever owns Rome, and they should have control over what the Pope decrees, as even if they're not the Pope they effectively hold him hostage.

Swabia's and Bavaria's cores don't overlap much anyway, but it's going to be really hard to stop them hating each other. Firstly they're likely to have high BB from all the previous fighting, which will damage relations; secondly they are likely to be on opposite sides of the Reformation. But yes, there needs to be some detente after the religious conflict (AFAIK Abe doesn't have the Thirty Years' War as such; perhaps we should create a new 'epo_ger' file and cook up a new religious war).
 
yourworstnightm said:
Some kind of threaty between german states would be fine, make them loose bb and gain better relations with eachother, why not in the middle of the 1600s or something.


Becuase they are all dead by then!

I think we need to try and start them off on the least-warlike footing possible. This will end in 15-20 years max, then there can be a period of conflict, and we could have some peace-enforcing events again in 1470s, giving us some peace until the religious wars errupt.

We could also try tricks like this again in the 1600s, though.
 
MattyG said:
Becuase they are all dead by then!

I think we need to try and start them off on the least-warlike footing possible. This will end in 15-20 years max, then there can be a period of conflict, and we could have some peace-enforcing events again in 1470s, giving us some peace until the religious wars errupt.

We could also try tricks like this again in the 1600s, though.

I can think of various chessy ways of tying the AI's arms behind its back. The challenge will be allowing the AI to mostly do what it wants, while keeping the special character of the HRE - the trouble is that, as IDLF has said, the AI craves war against weak enemies, and the longer the period of peace, the stronger the craving, regardless of relations, vassalage etc. I foresee lots of playtesting until we get this right...
 
Just a quick thought, and hopefully the thread hasn't gone beyond this point in the discussion.... but actually the constant warring of the many small germanic nations is one of the interesting things in the region. The problem is not that the ai files are set too warlike, the problem is that an ai Swabia or Bavaria or Hansa can gobble them up too fast, because of their size.

Rather than tinkering with ai files or nation size, let's make it harder for Bavaria to expand so fast in the early years. Delaying it's dutch culture - as mentioned earlier - is a string idea.
 
Hi All,

Just a comment.

I think before you start breaking up cultures into smaller cultures, you should decide what the primary focus of your new Aberration 2 mod is. As I understand it (from reading old threads) the primary focus of Aberration was always design for multiplayer. So for example, Archduke was less concerned about AI performance, since he thought players would dominate the game (as they do).

On the culture issue (where I agree some changes are needed) I understand Archduke deliberately removed the small cultures (one or two province cultures). That's what happened to the Swiss culture.

Not that I'm staying you should stick purely with Archduke's vision, but I do think you should consider what you are designing for and prioritize based on that.

If you are going to break up Gaelic (ca 15 provinces?) into three cultures, they'll each have, what, five provinces? Isn't that pretty small for cultures of nations that are "great powers"?

John Cain

yourworstnightm said:
I guess the german culture could be split up, I wouldn't mind. Gaelic culture could be split in irish, scottish and breton, since all three nations are great powers. Wales could start with breton culture, but if Eire inherit it could be changed to irish. If Eire inherit Wales Midlands should in that case remain anglosaxon. Midlands should be able to turn to breton if it's owned by Eire or Brittany.

Breaking up scandinavian culture is harder. For gameplay reasons a separate norwegian culture could be a good idea. But then we need to give that culture to the Kalmar Union too, if we want them to get a possibility to conquer Norway. Personally I think that some areas in Norway could be able to revolt to Kalmar Union if Scotland inherit. (jämtland, lappland and narvik perhaps).

I still think the best idea for France is a split in french and occitan, and maybe provencal for Savoie. Should we split the italian culture? North and south italian are still relatively distinct from each other. Could also stop Genoa and Sicily from beating eachother to death.
 
jcain said:
Hi All,

Just a comment.

I think before you start breaking up cultures into smaller cultures, you should decide what the primary focus of your new Aberration 2 mod is. As I understand it (from reading old threads) the primary focus of Aberration was always design for multiplayer. So for example, Archduke was less concerned about AI performance, since he thought players would dominate the game (as they do).

On the culture issue (where I agree some changes are needed) I understand Archduke deliberately removed the small cultures (one or two province cultures). That's what happened to the Swiss culture.

Not that I'm staying you should stick purely with Archduke's vision, but I do think you should consider what you are designing for and prioritize based on that.

If you are going to break up Gaelic (ca 15 provinces?) into three cultures, they'll each have, what, five provinces? Isn't that pretty small for cultures of nations that are "great powers"?

John Cain

I see what you're saying. My hope would be to make Abe work for both SP and MP where possible, though I can't comment much on MP as I haven't played. If the needs of SP and MP diverge radically in a particular area, there's always the wonder of optional settings.

On the cultural issue, however, I think we can safely take an SP stance, for the following reason: looking at the forums, it seems many of the big MP games have their own 'house rules' for editing in cultures between sessions. However, SP players usually consider this cheating as it makes the game too easy for them.

On the specific question of Gaelic, I would say the following:
- Ireland is the new Portugal: if they take over their European neighbours, something has gone seriously wrong.

- Brittany and Scotland will have other cultures, so they're not left in the lurch. We want them to have something to fight over, but that something is England - we don't want one power to completely conquer the other.
 
It seems the forum isn't letting me edit my posts, so I'll put a new one here.

As of now, we have 30 spare cultures at our disposal. Any new cultures we decide to include (eg Occitan, Hanseatic etc) will have to be taken away from this number.
 
I suggest creating Andalusi culture to replace berber and iberian in Spain for Granada (really we should change the name by now to the Caliphate of Cordoba and move the capital to Toledo)
and we should create Arabisque instead of arabic since its more correct.
 
Calipah said:
I suggest creating Andalusi culture to replace berber and iberian in Spain for Granada (really we should change the name by now to the Caliphate of Cordoba and move the capital to Toledo)
and we should create Arabisque instead of arabic since its more correct.

Cordoba - that would make sense, though the current storyline is that the Muslims were pushed to th brink in Andalusia (with just Granada left) and later recovered. Still, I think Granada is sufficiently powerful to claim it has restored the old Caliphate, so I'd be in favour of changing the name (just 'Cordoba' would probably suffice, though, as long names look really messy in-game).

Andalusi culture - yes, except that we may not want the Muslims to have the culture of the christian iberians right away, and we may not want Eire etc to get Moorish culture. I say keep the split for now, though Southern Iberia's culture shouldn't be called 'berber'. I'm tempted to introduce a 'maghrebi' culture as well, for balance reasons, and ditching berber altogether - do you think that would be reasonable?

Arabisque - I've never heard of this word; if it's a transliteration of a non-English word, I'd say that for the moment it's simpler if we stick to English names where possible. AFAIK, in English:
'Arabic' refers only to the language (both that of the Koran, and various related dialects spoken today)
'Arab' is the adjective describing people and other aspects of culture, and refers to most of the people of North Africa, Arabia and the Levant
'Arabian' refers specifically to the Arabian peninsula.

Having said that, you do sometimes hear 'Arabic' used in all three contexts, but I think the usage above is the most generally accepted. I would change the culture name to 'arab'.
 
Cordoba - that would make sense, though the current storyline is that the Muslims were pushed to th brink in Andalusia (with just Granada left) and later recovered. Still, I think Granada is sufficiently powerful to claim it has restored the old Caliphate, so I'd be in favour of changing the name (just 'Cordoba' would probably suffice, though, as long names look really messy in-game).
Well I mean the Caliphate was pushed to the south, but it dosent mean it would change itself to "Granada" and drop its old title, not to mention theres a very cool sheild for Cordoba, why not use it?

Andalusi culture - yes, except that we may not want the Muslims to have the culture of the christian iberians right away, and we may not want Eire etc to get Moorish culture. I say keep the split for now, though Southern Iberia's culture shouldn't be called 'berber'. I'm tempted to introduce a 'maghrebi' culture as well, for balance reasons, and ditching berber altogether - do you think that would be reasonable?

South of Spain Moorish, instead of berberi.Maghrebi I go against since its actually arab.

Arabisque - I've never heard of this word; if it's a transliteration of a non-English word, I'd say that for the moment it's simpler if we stick to English names where possible. AFAIK, in English:
'Arabic' refers only to the language (both that of the Koran, and various related dialects spoken today)
'Arab' is the adjective describing people and other aspects of culture, and refers to most of the people of North Africa, Arabia and the Levant
'Arabian' refers specifically to the Arabian peninsula.

Well in my language "Arabisque" refers to anything with Arab influences attacted to it.Arabs, Berbers, maghrebis ;) and even Persians.