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Dutch revolts - province based

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Re: Issues

5) We need to decide how to make this work with the Sack of Antwerp event that converts Antwerp. Perhaps the conversion of Antwerp should be removed from these events.

Why should it be removed?
is it game-technicaly?
'cause in reality after catholic recapture, no area was as catholic as Flanders.
 
Fall of Antwerp

Originally posted by Archeolooginspe
5) We need to decide how to make this work with the Sack of Antwerp event that converts Antwerp. Perhaps the conversion of Antwerp should be removed from these events.

Why should it be removed?
is it game-technicaly?
'cause in reality after catholic recapture, no area was as catholic as Flanders.
Click to expand...

Should only Spain get the events, or some other fixed states as well? Would France do the same? Just catholic/counterreformed states? Any trigger on how narrowminded that nation should be?

Basically I like these events, we just need to sort these things out, with your help hopefully Archeolooginspe.
 
these are people which I would see do the same

France - i would say Ultra-catholics of de Guise, not Bourbon off course.
England - Bloody Mary
Spain - sure
Pope - off course
austria - it was late emperor Karel V who started it, burning heretics

they should be very proselitized Catholics and very narowminded. Burning or wanting to burn the heretics is what you need. to change religion

But events don't really depend on religion, even if there was no reformation it would have happened. because it started as a protest of the lords to the governor about their rights. Religion only made it more bloody.
 
Comments:

I don't think the conversion of Flanders should happen in the Sack of Antwerp event as well as in the repatriation of the Netherlands. You're right about Flanders and Catholicism (and loyalty to the Spanish crown too by the way the Flemings and Walloons were much more attched to the Spanish monarchy than anyone outside the Iberian pennisula.), I just don't think there should be two conversion events. And it makes more sense to convert Flanders in the other event, although right now that only covers the 'traditional' countries that get the Dutch revolts.

My concern about 2 province Münster is the following. If Münster takes Gelre and waits for the events, by picking carefully she can get several hundred (edit: 900) ducats out of the whole thing, and then just let Gelre revolt away. The revolts can be handled by letting the rebels move out of the Gelre and moving the army in to beseige it. Ultimately I suppose the Netherlands will declare independence and Gelre would be ceded by event, but still.... Maybe that isn't too serious, but if a two province Münster actually wants to fight the revolts the events themselves will cost a ridiculous amount of cash.

The text (for now) is the same as the Paradox text. Which means it talks about Spain, Phillip II, the Duke of Alba and lots of things that won't make much sense when it happens to the Pope. I think we've all seen these events happen in the game! I'd appreciate help with the text for a generic country.
 
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I believe it should happen also if Holland becomes independent but the south stays spanish.

As far as i can sea for the repatriation events, they only happen when you control all of the Netherlands.(I can be wrong though)
These province thinking makes it difficult.
 
The way I've written the event you only get the conversion of Flanders if the Netherlands never forms. The way the event works in the default set up is that you get the conversion as long as you hold on to Flanders.

I am assuming that the Flanders conversion would normally (i.e., if the historical sequence is followed) be handled by a 'Sack of Antwerp' event.

To me the conversion (or Sack of Antwerp/Spanish fury) should be limited to Catholics and CRC who own most of the Southern Netherlands and who have gone through all of the revolt events. But that is just a suggestion.

And you're dead on right - using 'province =' makes thinking about these events much more difficult.
 
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Originally posted by Isaac Brock
Comments:
My concern about 2 province Münster is the following. If Münster takes Gelre and waits for the events, by picking carefully she can get several hundred (edit: 900) ducats out of the whole thing, and then just let Gelre revolt away. The revolts can be handled by letting the rebels move out of the Gelre and moving the army in to beseige it. Ultimately I suppose the Netherlands will declare independence and Gelre would be ceded by event, but still.... Maybe that isn't too serious, but if a two province Münster actually wants to fight the revolts the events themselves will cost a ridiculous amount of cash.
Click to expand...

The cash payment doesn't work very well as it is now, you pointed out yet another flaw in it. Firstly, you shouldn't be able to make money from the events; secondly, the cost/gain is not proportional to the number of provinces owned. I suggest the province taxes are lowered, for all provinces, with the 'bad events' and then restored later on. Perhaps small payments could be included.
 
Originally posted by Isaac Brock
The way I've written the event you only get the conversion of Flanders if the Netherlands never forms. The way the event works in the default set up is that you get the conversion as long as you hold on to Flanders.

I am assuming that the Flanders conversion would normally (i.e., if the hitorical sequence is followed) be handled by a 'Sack of Antwerp' event.

To me the conversion (or Sack of Antwerp/Spanish fury) should be limited to Catholics and CRC who own most of the Southern Netherlands and who have gone through all of the revolt events. But that is just a suggestion.

And you're dead on right - using 'province =' makes thinking about these events much more difficult.
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Conversion indeed limited to catholics and CRC and maybe a narrowminded trigger? Indeed they should've gone through all revolution events (for gameplay), historically it indeed is better for Spanish fury to take care of it.

to go to alternative history but if supposedly Holland would succeed in retaking Flanders, I think the people fled would have come back.

I believe you should get the convert event as you could keep Flanders and not completely recapture the Netherlands
 
Core Removing Events

I've 'borrowed' these from Alkar, and I think they are a very good idea. Adapted to the province base approach here are the French versions:
Code: 
[COLOR=skyblue]
#France
event = {
	id = 337066
	trigger = {		
		event = 3900 #Dutch Independence - HOL existed at some point
		flag = NethRepat #FRA had one of the repatriation events
		core = { province = 339 data = FRA } # No cores then no event
		NOT = {
			 OR = {
				owned = { province = 337 data = -1 } #Friesen#
				owned = { province = 338 data = -1 } #Geldre#
				owned = { province = 339 data = -1 } #Holland#
				owned = { province = 340 data = -1 } #Zeeland#
			}
		
		} #If France holds no provinces in the Northern Netherlands by 1648, she loses all claims#
	}
	random = no
	country = FRA
	name = "The peace treaty of Münster"
	desc = "In 1648 the peace of Münster is signed between France and the Netherlands 
ending the 80 Years War. In the treaty France acknowledges 
the republic of United Provinces as a free and independent 
state and affirms the status quo that has been in existence 
for the past decade. This means that France affirms the 
loss of ownership over the northern Netherlands."
	style = 3

	date = { day = 15 month = may year = 1648 }
	offset = 23
	deathdate = { day = 1 month = march year = 1649 }

	action_a = {
		name = "We acknowledge the Dutch Republic"
		command = { type = removecore which = 337 }
		command = { type = removecore which = 338 }
		command = { type = removecore which = 339 }
		command = { type = removecore which = 340 }
		command = { type = relation which = HOL value = 50 }
		}
}

#France
event = {
	id = 337070
	trigger = {
		event = 337066 #Treaty of Münster Northern Netherlands
		NOT = {
			OR = {
				owned = { province = 377 data = -1 } #Luxemburg#
				owned = { province = 378 data = -1 } #Brabant#
				owned = { province = 379 data = -1 } #Artois#
				owned = { province = 380 data = -1 } #Flandres#
				}
			} #If France failed to hold onto the southern Netherlands as well,#
#she should also lose these claims as well#
		}
	random = no
	country = SPA
	name = "The peace treaty of Münster"
	desc = "Having lost control of the southern Netherlands, France is forced to abandon 
her claims on these regions as well."
	style = 3

	date = { day = 18 month = may year = 1648 }
	offset = 23
	deathdate = { day = 1 month = april year = 1649 }

	action_a = {
		name = "We abandon our claims in the south as well"
		command = { type = removecore which = 377 }#Luxemburg#	
		command = { type = removecore which = 378 }#Brabant#
		command = { type = removecore which = 379 }#Artois#
		command = { type = removecore which = 380 }#Flanders#
		command = { type = relation which = HOL value = 50 }
		}
	}
[/COLOR]
The other countries (Austria and Spain) get +50 relations with France in the Southern Netherlands events. Burgundy gets the first event, but not the second.

My tests are ongoing and I hope to get through them this weekend. From the event numbering you may be able to tell that I'm up to 50 events here (ugh).
 
Did Artois consider themselves Dutch then? I know what we call nationalism wasn't as prevalent then as it is now but still...
 
I think artois considered itself dutch (heck.. there are still people that speak dutch in the region.. and it hasn't been dutch for 500 years or so)
 
Originally posted by ForzaA
I think artois considered itself dutch (heck.. there are still people that speak dutch in the region.. and it hasn't been dutch for 500 years or so)
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Isn't French Flanders more in the Picardie or the Calais EU provinces? Always thought Artois was Walloon.
 
sorry 1st time i read this thread, but i thought the province trigger didn't work...i remember wanting to do that for a revolter in india...Rajputz i believe.
 
Originally posted by Twoflower
Isn't French Flanders more in the Picardie or the Calais EU provinces? Always thought Artois was Walloon.
Click to expand...

Originally posted by Doomfarer
Did Artois consider themselves Dutch then? I know what we call nationalism wasn't as prevalent then as it is now but still...
Click to expand...

It's in Calais. Calais was once itselve Dutch. But Artois was called French-Flanders because everyone spoke French over there. But it was a part of the Netherlands in that time. Bu they were more Loyal ot King Philips II of Spain. Most of the counties of the Leageue of Artois lay in France now:D

Did Artois consider themselves Dutch then? I know what we call nationalism wasn't as prevalent then as it is now but still...
 
Originally posted by Jinnai
sorry 1st time i read this thread, but i thought the province trigger didn't work...i remember wanting to do that for a revolter in india...Rajputz i believe.
Click to expand...
The province trigger was fixed in 1.06.
 
Artois

First off the use of Artois as an owned province to cause the Dutch revolts is taken directly from the normal game. Artois has always caused the Dutch revolts and should continue to do so.

Second off Wallonia is already awfully shortchanged in the game. You have to remember that all of the 'Dutch' nobility spoke French, and that there was a deep Frecnh language strain in Charles V's empire. French was his first language. I'd argue that, geographically there are three provinces that ought to be Walloon and thus French. Luxemburg, Brabant, and Artois. I'd imagine that some Flemings might not agree with me :). The elite in Brabant was certainly Francophone, and the linguistic boundary is now further south than it once was (well it was much less defined in the past obviously). But I can see why Brabant is Dutch and I can live with German Luxemburg. But what is it, eight of the seventeen provinces that were French speaking? There WAS in fact a fracophone part to the Dutch revolts, at least early on. As Artois is all there is of Wallonia it HAS to be included.

Also the area in the EU province of Artois is presently only about half in France. I'd argue that it includes all of Hainault and Walloon Flanders. At the time very little of it was in France. Even after they had been taken by France in the late 17th centruy the inhabitants long showed a strong residual loyalty to the King of Spain.
 
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May i point out that the county of Flanders was more French than today and in contrary Brabant was more Dutch, in Brabant the Dutch language border layed more south of today. And Brussels was a Dutch city till the 19th century though the courts were francophone. But for the rest it's like you stated. Jut a bit nitpicking;)
 
I, of all people, can't complain about nitpicking! :).

In my defense I meant 'EU Brabant' not the real province, and I think I'm justified in that one as it would include parts of current Liege, Limburg and so on.

However if you made Brabant Dutch, the Flemings would be as shortchanged as the Walloons are now, so I think Dutch Brabant makes sense. If there were one I'd change it's Luxemburg - there really isn't a good historical reason for making it German rather than French. But for gameplay it makes sense - French culture is already too big. Of course, for consistency I could then argue that Lorraine ought to be German, but....

Other points of note here. In my testing I've seen both Flanders and Luxemburg appear as a result of the Dutch revolts. This is simply wrong, and I strongly suggest that they only be allowed to revolt until 1559, like the County of Holland. Right now independent Flanders makes it very dificult for the Netherlands to form with Antwerp, and it should be able to do that even if only once in a while.

I'd also argue that the Netherlands ought to get shields on Luxemburg and Artois, but that is a rather alt. history timeline, and I'm sure someone will tell me about 1814-1830. So I'll let that one drop.

edit: Brussels was majority Flemish, but I thought there was always a pretty large French contigent. I mean it rose to prominence when the govrernement moved there, and the government was always in French.
 
government figures give a 9% French minority in Brabant in 1830 I believe. But it was for sure between 5%-10% and that after a period of heavy frenchification by Napoleon. But for the revolts it doesn't make good.

about EU-Brabant, you're right, An indeed I also believe that EU Luxembourg contains much of Liège and Belgian Luxembourg and Namur.
 
Hijacking my own thread:

Was Austrian government in French, Dutch, or German? I would have guessed that Brussels was more French in 1560 than in 1785, although obviously the French occupation would have made a big difference by 1830. Plus I'd have thought that Brussels would have been more French than Brabant overall. Still, I don't really know.

I'll get back on topic with next post.
 
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