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Dutch revolts - province based

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OK the events as listed above won't work. The reason is in the trigger, rather than
Code: 
[COLOR=skyblue]
trigger = {
		NOT = {
				NOT = {
					core = { province = 387 data = -1 } # Franche Comte-not 
#exempt FRA, SPA, BUR and HAB#
					}
				OR = {
					core = { province = 337 data = -1 } # exempt FRI#
					core = { province = 338 data = -1 } # exempt GEL#
					core = { province = 339 data = -1 } # exempt U10#
					core = { province = 378 data = -1 } # exempt HAU#
					core = { province = 380 data = -1 } # exempt FLA#
					core = { province = 377 data = -1 } # exempt LUX#
					}
				}
		NOT = { domestic = { type = innovative value = 8 } }
		NOT = { flag = DutGenEst }  #So it doesn't happen twice for the same country#
		}

		}
[/COLOR]
it needs to be
Code: 
[COLOR=skyblue]
trigger = {
		NOT = {
			AND = {
				NOT = {
					core = { province = 387 data = -1 } # Franche Comte-not 
#exempt FRA, SPA, BUR and HAB#
					}
				OR = {
					core = { province = 337 data = -1 } # exempt FRI#
					core = { province = 338 data = -1 } # exempt GEL#
					core = { province = 339 data = -1 } # exempt U10#
					core = { province = 378 data = -1 } # exempt HAU#
					core = { province = 380 data = -1 } # exempt FLA#
					core = { province = 377 data = -1 } # exempt LUX#
					}
				}
			}
		NOT = { domestic = { type = innovative value = 8 } }
		NOT = { flag = DutGenEst }  #So it doesn't happen twice for the same country#
		}

[/COLOR]

The reason is that within the NOT = {} there is an implict OR rather than an implicit AND. I had seen this posted several months ago, and only remembered after testing my way down to identifying the problem in the script.

In my tests, other than the independent Flanders problem I'm seeing the Netherlands form discontinuously (Zeeland/Friesland) rather more than I care. I propose that the protestants and reformed countries who have had the General Estates event shoulds cede their Dutch provinces to the Netherlands just like the Catholics do. I also add a CB to get an event that looks like:
Code: 
[COLOR=skyblue]
#The Dutch Revolt is successful!# Zeeland version
event = {
	id = 337047
	trigger = {
		NOT = {
			AND = {
				NOT = {
					core = { province = 387 data = -1 } # Franche Comte-not 
#exempt FRA, SPA, BUR and HAB#
					}
				OR = {
					core = { province = 337 data = -1 } # exempt FRI#
					core = { province = 338 data = -1 } # exempt GEL#
					core = { province = 339 data = -1 } # exempt U10#
					core = { province = 378 data = -1 } # exempt HAU#
					core = { province = 380 data = -1 } # exempt FLA#
					core = { province = 377 data = -1 } # exempt LUX#
					}
				}
			}
		exists = HOL
                 flag = DutGenEst
	}
	random = no
	province = 340 #Zeeland
	name = "EVENTNAME3814" #need to change text
	desc = "EVENTHIST3814"
	style = 2

	date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1555 }
	offset = 30
	deathdate = { day = 1 month = january year = 1648 }

     action_a = { # Curses!
         name = "ACTIONNAME3814A"
         command = { type = secedeprovince which = HOL value = 340 }
	        command = { type = casusbelli   which = HOL value = 24 }
         }
}
[/COLOR]

Otherwise early tests are good - the events fire as expected in my one test case with the Netherlands split between France Austria Friesland and Bremen. The Netherlands forms well. I haven't made it to 1648, to see the cores go away, but hope to soon.

I may try to put this together so other people can test it reasonably easily. It's a huge change and I'd like to know that it makes sense to a range of users.
 
I'm still not sure what to do about the cash - reducing the provincetaxvalues is dificult because it will be very hard to restore them. I suppose I could scale the province events with countrysize (which would also provide a 'back-up' revolt event, but which could be ugly in terms of weird consequences).

I'll think about that one some more, and run a few more hands off tests. Then I'll try to put together something I can email or upload.
 
Really a difficult one, but you seem to cope well. ;)
Is the idea now that countries of all religions cede their provinces, but there is still a difference in revoltrisk depending on the province owner? That RR = 30 or 10 in the simplest 'no_province_change' situation? This seems good to me, since the Netherlands ought to form often and become of some significance.
To avoid this whole problem of cash, we could reduce the sums to become much smaller (100d and 150d or even less). Did they really get that big one-time gain / loss from the taxes? Then the number of provinces doesn't matter that much, and could be ignored, and it would also be better for smaller nations.
I admit this is an approximation and no ideal solution, but better that the current one. It could still be improved, but it seems every new solution to this brings new problems as well.
 
Right. Protestants/Reformed get the Dutch nobles demand general estates, but not the Edict of Blood or the Union of Arras. So their revolt risk will be lower. They also get the Dutch Revolt is Sucessful and cede the Northern Netherlands Provinces to HOL.

I've run through another test (the Austrians actually chose to conciliate the Dutch Nobles Demanding General Estates, but lost the provinces due to the Edict of Blood). Everything seems to work well.

I'm reluctant to simply reduce the cash - I'd rather leave it as is and let really small nations possibly get a big boost. I'll think about it some more.

I also need help with the text. I am using the Spanish text for now, but it's very specific to Spain. Any ideas?
 
Download

I'd appreciate help from anyone who cares to try this out and see if any weird things happen to the revolts. I've put the files in a download here. Very simple to install, works fine on my machine. Please let me know.
 
What about giving the Netherlands some money and troops in the Creation of the Dutch Republic event? All too often I see a newly created Netherlands being overrun by some fuzzy German minor because it starts with no money and no troops, and it's also quite unrealistic for them to have no army.
 
Having read your events and as so far as I can understand them they look nice and propably will help forming the Netherlands more often. Some feedback though on the following:

Originally posted by Isaac Brock
Right. Protestants/Reformed get the Dutch nobles demand general estates, but not the Edict of Blood or the Union of Arras. So their revolt risk will be lower. They also get the Dutch Revolt is Sucessful and cede the Northern Netherlands Provinces to HOL.
Click to expand...

With Protestant/Reformed getting the Dutch nobles demand general estates, in history this event was primarily caused by the centralization policies started by the Burgundians and continued under habsburg rule of Charles V and Philips II. The dutch nobility was primiraly protesting against infringements and overruling over their authorities. Religion did play a part and the prosecution of non-catholics contributed in increasing general resentment among the populace.
Based on this I would argue that protestant/reformed countries should not get this events when they are largely decentralized, because the lack of central authority would not give any cause for the dutch nobles and regents to revolt. Of course being protestant/reformed makes the religious aspect of the Netherlands revolting redundant as well in this case.
Concluding I would say that the event does not trigger when: religion = protestant/reformed AND centralization < 4, the exact value of centralization could be arguable, but the last trigger could also serve as replacement for the innovitiveness trigger for (counterreform) catholic nations.

Originally posted by Isaac Brock
I'm reluctant to simply reduce the cash - I'd rather leave it as is and let really small nations possibly get a big boost. I'll think about it some more.
Click to expand...

Just leave the cash rewards as they are, the authorities did manage to extract quite some amount of revenues from the Netherlands and besides the revoltrisk will likely offset this by causing loss of income.
 
Thanks for the input. The problem with the cash is not that you get 300d, that seems reasonable. The problem is that if Austria owns all 8 provinces it get 300d, and if Münster owns only one of them it also gets 300d. It would be nice to give something that scaled with the number of provinces.
The decentralization for protestants seems like a good idea. Initially I just wanted to copy the Paradox events which have only the innovativeness trigger for the General Estates. I do think 3 is too high a threshold, most countries will be that low in centralization.
But no-one ever claimed that Egmont and Hoorn were anything but good Catholics. They were executed for treason not heresy. And the opposition to the inquisition certainly had 'decentralizing' roots.

I don't seem to see the Dutch getting overrun too often. They do get any rebels in the country as troops, and with William the Silent commanding them they seem to do alright. Also they will always have 4 provinces under my changes, so it's tough for them to lose them all. With a breathing space they should be able to recover provinces from minor opponenets even if they lose the initial war. Still maybe giving them an army would help.
 
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This might be a little OT, but have you considered changing the effects of the "Repatriation of the Netherlands" event? In the new province-based system does Flanders still convert, and if so what are the requirements? Also, shouldn't 80 years of brutal repression have more of an effect than to simply convert one province and end the revolts, especially given that Catholics were still a majority in the Netherlands? Just a thought...
 
Not OT at all. My requirements for getting the conversion of Flanders is that You still own part of the Low Countries (Flanders would be enough) and the Netherlands never formed. You also get cash.

As I've split up the repatriation into the 'won' and 'didn't win' we could consider adding Dutch culture back in. I'm on the fence about that one.
 
Adding in Dutch culture propably wouldn't be a great idea, there is no reason that if in history if the rebellion would have failed that the victor would get Dutch culture. The cultural difference has the advantage of simulating the still increased difficulty of actually getting resources from the Netherlands. Nations that start out with Dutch culture however should be allowed to keep it if they succesfully manage to defeat the rebels for 80 years. This being the case with Burgundy.
Should the Netherlands win, i.e. owning the northern Netherlands, then Burgundy has little claim on Dutch culture anymore and they should lose it. The Burgundian court was predeminantly French after all and French was the language being used at the court in Brussels. I am not sure if there are other nations beside Burgundy that have dutch culture, but if so the same aplies for them. The dutch provinces themselves ofcourse do not fall under this arrangement.

As to the Netherlands starting out with very little troops, I have written an event that deals with that to help them out when they get independent. I'll put in the thread in my sig.
 
Yeah, that's a nice idea.

As to Dutch culture I'm mostly thinking about the EEP here, and Burgundy doesn't get Dutch culture in the EEP. As such I'm leaving it alone for now - but I agree that they should lose it if the revolt is sucessful.

But that leaves open the question of whether one shouldn't get a little more than the conversion of Flanders for defeating the revolts. Possibly you could get cores (as you used to in 1.05). Matches up nicely with the loss of cores if the revolt is sucessful.
 
Burgundy does get Dutch culture by Fate's event for the move to Brabant that will be in 1.4.
 
I'll change it to remove Dutch culture then.
 
Changing culture would make a little more sense than giving dutch culture to the winner, but could cause weird things like a Gaelic culture Holland. As another idea, now that the revolts are province based, would it be possible to create a religious trigger? That way if I manage to convert Zeeland, there would no longer be Calvinist revolts in that province. Don't know if that would be doable or not though...
 
No, what I meant was that I will add a line removing Dutch state culture from Burgundy when they lose their cores in the Northern Netherlands. Or maybe when their revotlrisk goes away (the difference is whether you can keep Dutch culture by holding only one of Holland Freisland Gelderland and Zeeland, and whether you keep it if the Netherlands formed at some point.) All the cultures of the Netherlands provinces should remain Dutch, French or German regardless of how the revolt goes. Province culture will not change.

As is you already get revolts in catholic Luxemburg, Brabant and Artois, and they don't need to be converted. So I don't think Catholic provinces should be exempt. Besides which the time from Jean Calvin to the Edict of blood is very short. It would be very difficult to convert it in time.
 
Alright, that makes sense. What about the Union of Arras though, since that was essentially an act to bring the angry Catholics back into the fold, should that event consider province religions?

I definately would not like to see any cultures changed, when that sort of thing gets out of control things can get very weird. It makes sense that Burgundy should lose dutch culture if the dutch revolt out.
 
Union of Arras

It could. The Paradox version treats the South differently form the North. And the South includes (reformed) Flanders. In real life Flanders wasn't in the Union of Arras, and Parma had to conquer it.

The problem with this approach is that someone owning all 8 provinces will get 8 Union of Arras events, which I find to be very ugly. Or I'd have to write a Union of Arras event for each possible combination. I think that's 28 events. No thanks.

edit: did the math. It's 242 events. There are 28 events for 2 out of the 8 being catholic.
 
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cores

I like the idea of adding cores if you crush the revolt. However this means giving whoever crushes the revolt an event for each province, (and this could be exploited by conquering the provinces right before 1648) or else giving everyone who crushes the revolt cores on all of the Netherlands (not right either). I'll give it some more thought.
 
So we have lots of really good ideas that are hard/impossible to implement...oh well...
 
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