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i dont know why there is a need to redo all the events that may happen to China after the fall of Ming if there is a simpler way of doing the new events that is backed by historical reasons. questions will arise: if China is divided for long periods of time with no nation owning the tag, which nation should take the events that originally happen for China? does that mean all subsequent changes made to China had to be made taking into account that 5 different countries may occupy Chinese territory at different points in time? that is going too far into the alternate history direction that i find it hard to accept.

the triggers need to be done very carefully. having the CHI doesnt exist trigger ONLY address the problem of ineffective events occuring in gaining the tags. but that is only part of the problem that i just said. a minor could be able to occupy all of Central China and become very strong but still doesnt get the CHI tag. because the minor which took the tag before it, such as Manchuria, still has control of more than 12 provinces which were not considered part of China proper. Or, the country with the CHI tag, who had been reduced to provinces in far away/remote provinces like Taiwan, and Hainan, may never have its stability fallen below 2 nor be a neighbour with any other minor.

the problem with those triggers is that they unnecessarily complicate the situation and they take the model away from happening in a situation that is most historical, which is already provided for in the triggers for the set of events gaining the tag. historically, the legitimacy should not be taken away even if CHI was reduced to less than 4 or 5 provinces. Ming's legitimacy would not be displaced, even if it only controls a few provinces, if no single minor was strong enough to control most of China. BUT, if one minor is strong enough to control most of central China, Ming would not have legitimacy even if it is not eliminated (therefore the need to remove the exist trigger). further is the ahistorical situation that occur under the new triggers where no one is recognised as China.

only one set of criteria should be used. that makes it clearcut and historical.
 
Last edited:
Originally posted by Sun_Zi_36
i dont know why there is a need to redo all the events that may happen to China after the fall of Ming if there is a simpler way of doing the new events that is backed by historical reasons. questions will arise: if China is divided for long periods of time with no nation owning the tag, which nation should take the events that originally happen for China? does that mean all subsequent changes made to China had to be made taking into account that 5 different countries may occupy Chinese territory at different points in time? that is going too far into the alternate history direction that i find it hard to accept.

the triggers need to be done very carefully. having the CHI doesnt exist trigger ONLY address the problem of ineffective events occuring in gaining the tags. but that is only part of the problem that i just said. a minor could be able to occupy all of Central China and become very strong but still doesnt get the CHI tag. because the minor which took the tag before it, such as Manchuria, still has control of more than 12 provinces which were not considered part of China proper. Or, the country with the CHI tag, who had been reduced to provinces in far away/remote provinces like Taiwan, and Hainan, may never have its stability fallen below 2 nor be a neighbour with any other minor.

the problem with those triggers is that they unnecessarily complicate the situation and they take the model away from happening in a situation that is most historical, which is already provided for in the triggers for the set of events gaining the tag. historically, the legitimacy should not be taken away even if CHI was reduced to less than 4 or 5 provinces. Ming's legitimacy would not be displaced, even if it only controls a few provinces, if no single minor was strong enough to control most of China. BUT, if one minor is strong enough to control most of central China, Ming would not have legitimacy even if it is not eliminated (therefore the need to remove the exist trigger). further is the ahistorical situation that occur under the new triggers where no one is recognised as China.

only one set of criteria should be used. that makes it clearcut and historical.
Click to expand...
Ok you've concived me for the forming/unforming of China nation, but for the various historical events, for many there may be no way around it. Several haveto do with European nations seeing only the legitimate China, if there is none, one must ask themsleves if they should fire and ifso,for whom?
 
those that prob don't need to be redone:
The Appointment of Heshen

some that would be:
Lord Macartney's Mission
The Expulsion of the Jesuits

some iffy:
The Eight Trigrams Rebellion
The Celestial Order Rebellion
The White Lotus Rebellion
 
Here is my last event redone...only was has been posted for an example do to the length of the trigger statement
Code: 
[color=green]
event = {
	id = {147010
	trigger = {
		OR = {
			control  = { province = 649 data = MCH }
			control  = { province = 650 data = MCH }
			control  = { province = 651 data = MCH }
			control  = { province = 652 data = MCH }
			control  = { province = 653 data = MCH }
			control  = { province = 654 data = MCH }
			control  = { province = 655 data = MCH }
			control  = { province = 1562 data = MCH }
			control  = { province = 1563 data = MCH }
			control  = { province = 1564 data = MCH }
			control  = { province = 1565 data = MCH }
			control  = { province = 1567 data = MCH }
			control  = { province = 649 data = U11 }
			control  = { province = 650 data = U11 }
			control  = { province = 651 data = U11 }
			control  = { province = 652 data = U11 }
			control  = { province = 653 data = U11 }
			control  = { province = 654 data = U11 }
			control  = { province = 655 data = U11 }
			control  = { province = 1562 data = U11 }
			control  = { province = 1563 data = U11 }
			control  = { province = 1564 data = U11 }
			control  = { province = 1565 data = U11 }
			control  = { province = 1567 data = U11 }
			control  = { province = 649 data = U12 }
			control  = { province = 650 data = U12 }
			control  = { province = 651 data = U12 }
			control  = { province = 652 data = U12 }
			control  = { province = 653 data = U12 }
			control  = { province = 654 data = U12 }
			control  = { province = 655 data = U12 }
			control  = { province = 1562 data = U12 }
			control  = { province = 1563 data = U12 }
			control  = { province = 1564 data = U12 }
			control  = { province = 1565 data = U12 }
			control  = { province = 1567 data = U12 }
			control  = { province = 649 data = U13 }
			control  = { province = 650 data = U13 }
			control  = { province = 651 data = U13 }
			control  = { province = 652 data = U13 }
			control  = { province = 653 data = U13 }
			control  = { province = 654 data = U13 }
			control  = { province = 655 data = U13 }
			control  = { province = 1562 data = U13 }
			control  = { province = 1563 data = U13 }
			control  = { province = 1564 data = U13 }
			control  = { province = 1565 data = U13 }
			control  = { province = 1567 data = U13 }
			control  = { province = 649 data = U14 }
			control  = { province = 650 data = U14 }
			control  = { province = 651 data = U14 }
			control  = { province = 652 data = U14 }
			control  = { province = 653 data = U14 }
			control  = { province = 654 data = U14 }
			control  = { province = 655 data = U14 }
			control  = { province = 1562 data = U14 }
			control  = { province = 1563 data = U14 }
			control  = { province = 1564 data = U14 }
			control  = { province = 1565 data = U14 }
			control  = { province = 1567 data = U14 }
			control  = { province = 649 data = REB }
			control  = { province = 650 data = REB }
			control  = { province = 651 data = REB }
			control  = { province = 652 data = REB }
			control  = { province = 653 data = REB }
			control  = { province = 654 data = REB }
			control  = { province = 655 data = REB }
			control  = { province = 1562 data = REB }
			control  = { province = 1563 data = REB }
			control  = { province = 1564 data = REB }
			control  = { province = 1565 data = REB }
			control  = { province = 1567 data = REB }
}		OR = {
			neighbour = MCH
			neighbour = U11
			neighbour = U12
			neighbour = U13
			neighbour = U14
			}
		NOT = { 
			countrysize = 12
			stability = 2
			}
		event = 14704
		}
	random = no
	country = CHI
	name = "Loss of the Divine Providence"
	desc = "As the war and open rebellion continue within China, the Emperor's legitimacy slowly wears away until only himself and a few loyal members still recognize him as the true ruler of the Middle Kingdom."
	style = 2

	action_a = {
		name = "I am still the true emperor!"
		command = { type = stability value = -1 }
		command = { type = country  which = U14 }
		command = { type = sleepevent which = 147010 }
		}
	}
[/color]
After rereading your trigger Sun Zi, i noticed that it required all proinvinces of that nation to be controlled by the 1 opposing nation. Not only would this be unlikely, but if we take out the Not existing china command this could cause a crash pr other bugs theorettically as 2 countries try to switch tags, both using 1 tag at the same instant for 1 day.
 
1. i intentionally made the trigger such that the 12 mandatory provinces must be controlled by 1 opposing nation. thats justified by the historical perspective about who should have legitimacy. (note the 3rd paragraph of my last post, and) the Chinese tend to stick with the old regime as authority until a new power clearly emerges as unchallengeable authority. if the old regime is extinguished but no power is clearly dominant, they will attach legitimacy to the new power which is most connected with the old regime. The best evidence of this is the way the large number of historical works were written (how they classifiy which regimes were rebellious, which were legitimate) throughout history.

2. so there should really be minimal period between losing and gaining the "divine providence" (as i have explained). i dont think that would cause a crash, i m pretty sure, but it needs to be confirmed, bcoz i have done a lot of tests on the Mongol events and found out much depends on the state of things at the time the events fires, regardless of whether it is on the same date. so within the same event, placing troops and then seceding the province to another nation will work, but (reversing the order) seceding the province and then placing armies will not work. similarly, the loss of providence will always have occurred when the gain event fires (bcoz it is required in the triggers), so there will be no crash for using the same tag.

3. in any case, i think the way u redone the triggers, for any nation to control only one of the twelve central Chinese provinces is too lenient to the rebellious nations and too harsh on the established regime. since there should be no extra criteria in the gaining providence side of the events (as i have explained in the last post), a minor could gain the CHI tag just by controlling one border province of central china without doing much. i would stick with control of all the provinces by 1 minor. Historical events should be scripted to guide the minors, especially Shun and Manchu to takeover China anyway, so i dont think that is extremely difficult.

4. about redoing other historical events, two things. In case nobody has reached the requirement to control all 12 provinces but CHI is extinguished, and a waiting period between gaining and losing the tags where nobody has CHI tag. for the 1st issue, to simplify things, if CHI doesnt exist, the order of recieving the tag should be (according to the principles set out in the 1st paragraph) Southern Mingthen Shun, then Xi, then Manchu, then Zhou. for 2nd issue we could either have no extra triggers at all on the gainig side, so no waiting period at all between losing or gaining the tags where there will be no nation with CHI. Or we could have some very loose trigger on the gaining side so there might be a short waiting period. that would mean answering some questions, which are not that difficult (bcoz the period is short). simply, follow the same order above for which minor to receive the event.
 
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Originally posted by Sun_Zi_36
1. i intentionally made the trigger such that the 12 mandatory provinces must be controlled by 1 opposing nation. thats justified by the historical perspective about who should have legitimacy. (note the 3rd paragraph of my last post, and) the Chinese tend to stick with the old regime as authority until a new power clearly emerges as unchallengeable authority. if the old regime is extinguished but no power is clearly dominant, they will attach legitimacy to the new power which is most connected with the old regime. The best evidence of this is the way the large number of historical works were written (how they classifiy which regimes were rebellious, which were legitimate) throughout history.
Click to expand...

Under this system though there could theoretically be absolutely no time period inbetween the transfer of legitimacy,which brings me to your second point.
2. so there should really be minimal period between losing and gaining the "divine providence" (as i have explained). i dont think that would cause a crash, i m pretty sure, but it needs to be confirmed, bcoz i have done a lot of tests on the Mongol events and found out much depends on the state of things at the time the events fires, regardless of whether it is on the same date. so within the same event, placing troops and then seceding the province to another nation will work, but (reversing the order) seceding the province and then placing armies will not work. similarly, the loss of providence will always have occurred when the gain event fires (bcoz it is required in the triggers), so there will be no crash for using the same tag.
Click to expand...
those events you dealt with have 1 nation involved for the event. these events deal with 2 nations and 2 different events. Vastly different circumstances than the mongol hordes.
3. in any case, i think the way u redone the triggers, for any nation to control only one of the twelve central Chinese provinces is too lenient to the rebellious nations and too harsh on the established regime. since there should be no extra criteria in the gaining providence side of the events (as i have explained in the last post), a minor could gain the CHI tag just by controlling one border province of central china without doing much. i would stick with control of all the provinces by 1 minor. Historical events should be scripted to guide the minors, especially Shun and Manchu to takeover China anyway, so i dont think that is extremely difficult.
Click to expand...
It maybe. Perhaps lowering the stability threshold would help. However making it so that its some combination while theoreticcaly feesable with cause a huge trigger statement. I dunno how far the engine will read the trigger statements either.
4. about redoing other historical events, two things. In case nobody has reached the requirement to control all 12 provinces but CHI is extinguished, and a waiting period between gaining and losing the tags where nobody has CHI tag. for the 1st issue, to simplify things, if CHI doesnt exist, the order of recieving the tag should be (according to the principles set out in the 1st paragraph) Southern Mingthen Shun, then Xi, then Manchu, then Zhou. for 2nd issue we could either have no extra triggers at all on the gainig side, so no waiting period at all between losing or gaining the tags where there will be no nation with CHI. Or we could have some very loose trigger on the gaining side so there might be a short waiting period. that would mean answering some questions, which are not that difficult (bcoz the period is short). simply, follow the same order above for which minor to receive the event.
Click to expand...
Any reason for that particular order?
 
Originally posted by Jinnai
Under this system though there could theoretically be absolutely no time period inbetween the transfer of legitimacy,which brings me to your second point.

those events you dealt with have 1 nation involved for the event. these events deal with 2 nations and 2 different events. Vastly different circumstances than the mongol hordes.
Click to expand...
yea, i was trying to suggest with that example how the computer deals with the stuff in the events sequentially, it doesnt check on each day for everything that may happen and then fire them simultaneously. presumably the events themselves would also be dealt with in the same way. anyway, i have done a simple test several times and had no problems:

Code: 
[color=silver]#Loss Test#
event = {
	id = 22451
	random = no
	country = CHI
	name = "loss test"
	desc = "test"
	style = 3
	date = { day = 30 month = january year = 1419 }
	
	action_a ={
		name = "test"
		command = { type = country which = U01 }
	}
}

#Gain Test#
event = {
	id = 22450
	trigger = { event = 22451 }
	random = no
	country = TIB
	name = "gain test"
	desc = "test"
	style = 3

	date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1419 }
	offset = 1
	deathdate = { day = 30 month = june year = 1819 }

	action_a ={
		name = "test"
		command = { type = country which = CHI }
	}
}[/color]
i have tried varying the date in the gain test and the offset in the loss test to try and get them happen on the same day but the closest they happen is one day after the other.

Originally posted by Jinnai
It maybe. Perhaps lowering the stability threshold would help. However making it so that its some combination while theoreticcaly feesable with cause a huge trigger statement. I dunno how far the engine will read the trigger statements either.
Click to expand...
thats why i suggested to stick with control all mandatory provinces, that would not cause huge complication, as combination does, stability could be simply added below them.

Originally posted by Jinnai
Any reason for that particular order?
Click to expand...
well, under the principles i set out in the last post. Southern Ming directly suceeded Ming in blood of emperor. Shun is the power that overthrew Ming, so comes second in the connection from Ming. Xi is another rebellious power that rose up at the same time as Shun and helped the overthrow of Ming, so comes third. Manchus took over China by defeating the Shun and Xi so should come after it in terms of legitimacy to inherit the Ming thrown. Zhou is a rebellious power trying to overthrow the Qing, so is least connected with the Ming throne.

hey, if these crown of china events are taking too along to decide, might be better to write up the events for the actual revolt of those minors first. we need those events as a starting point for the crown of china events anyway (not to mention it was my original intention to only do those first back at the time when u asked me to send u what i want for the events for the revolters). those events are really essential, plus later events to push the revolters in their historical direction, whereas crown of China is more of an extravagant thing.
 
well i was thinking we could come up with a compromise...the capital as well as atleast 1 other province could be done easily an have stability be no higher than say 0?
 
that is still way too lenient in view of the historical facts (very much so for nations like Manchu, and Shun as well whom we should give a very good chance to capture the capital, bcoz Shun captured the capital but nobody would really say it is a legitimate dynasty). i would say to compromise simplicity with historical modelling to the best of both, the closest to achieving that is to require control of all mandatory provinces by 1 nation. the trigger would simply be something like this:
Code: 
[color=silver]
	trigger = {
		NOT = { stability = 2 }
		OR = {
			AND = {
				control  = { province = 649 data = MCH }
				control  = { province = 650 data = MCH }
				control  = { province = 651 data = MCH }
				control  = { province = 652 data = MCH }
				control  = { province = 653 data = MCH }
				control  = { province = 654 data = MCH }
				control  = { province = 655 data = MCH }
				control  = { province = 1562 data = MCH }
				control  = { province = 1563 data = MCH }
				control  = { province = 1564 data = MCH }
				control  = { province = 1565 data = MCH }
				control  = { province = 1567 data = MCH }
				}
			AND = {
				control  = { province = 649 data = U11 }
				control  = { province = 650 data = U11 }
				control  = { province = 651 data = U11 }
				control  = { province = 652 data = U11 }
				control  = { province = 653 data = U11 }
				control  = { province = 654 data = U11 }
				control  = { province = 655 data = U11 }
				control  = { province = 1562 data = U11 }
				control  = { province = 1563 data = U11 }
				control  = { province = 1564 data = U11 }
				control  = { province = 1565 data = U11 }
				control  = { province = 1567 data = U11 }
				}
			AND = {
				control  = { province = 649 data = U12 }
				control  = { province = 650 data = U12 }
				control  = { province = 651 data = U12 }
				control  = { province = 652 data = U12 }
				control  = { province = 653 data = U12 }
				control  = { province = 654 data = U12 }
				control  = { province = 655 data = U12 }
				control  = { province = 1562 data = U12 }
				control  = { province = 1563 data = U12 }
				control  = { province = 1564 data = U12 }
				control  = { province = 1565 data = U12 }
				control  = { province = 1567 data = U12 }
				}
			}
		}[/color]
note that U14 need not be added if the nation is switched back to U14. add the trigger that gain event for U14 has occurred (other than the very first fall event).
note also that Zhou need not be added in the event as well (something that i forgot to mention). that is bcoz, the circumstances perculiar to Zhou, Zhou shouldnt revolt until Shun and Xi are defeated and Southern Ming is not China.
rebels should not be added because they represent uncoorinated opposition, which would never cause toppling of legitimacy however successful.
 
Boy, you're pretty bold. I've never had the courage to put two events on the same day, let alone the tag changing thing you're trying. Good to hear that it works. :)
 
Yes that is good to know, but i think you're still looking over 1 big problem.

A while ago you said:
the mere fact that...China has lost control of all of its most important provinces meant that it would be regarded as having lost the mandate of heaven.
Click to expand...
Well that would be fine, if as your trigger suggests the provinces are controlled by 1 nation, but that isn't likely unless there really is only 1 other seeker to the throne.
 
i think the trigger: first event has happened really shields the second event from firing on the same day. coz even if the computer checks once for all events that may happen on each and every day, the conditions for the second event wont be met until the next day after the first event has fired. unless someone wants to suggest that on each and every day, the computer checks all the events that may happen, fire them, and then check a second time on that same day.

about the trigger: yes, i've said that, but i've also stressed that there needs to be only one power that emerges dominant before people will recognise regimes has really changed. it's not really inconsistent, it's just that that sentence was not attached with great detail.

i mean, theres really different interpretations of history, and we r imposing something abstract here. legitimacy viewed in terms of the people at that particular time would be different from legitimacy viewed in terms of the educated class at that particular time who place emphasis on loyalty and respect authority, and that may be different from the views written in the history books which by then owe loyalty to the new regime as they are written after that particular time.

so it's really arbitrary how u define it, but to simulate it in the game we practically only have 2 choices, EITHER control the capital and one other province OR control all central China, because we cant handle infinite combinations. Which one is more historical? i think the second definitely ensure historical situations will occur in the game.

it is true that it will be much harder than the first choice to switch the tag, but firstly the degree of harshness much is closer to whats historical than the degree of looseness in the first choice, which can sometimes make very ahistorical situations occur. we shouldnt let it be easier to happen just for the sake of it. secondly, it may not be as hard as it seems when it is combined with necessary historical events that should help direct the course of history. i dont think we should just let them float around after independence and do nothing. the crown of china event triggers are only the final criteria that we should generally direct the nations to meet. there are really 4 powers competing for the throne at a time (Zhou does not exist at the same time as Shun and Xi). Southern Ming and Xi are quite hopless (in fact i have thought about getting rid of Xi altogether before in AGC), it should really quite a one-sided contest with Manchu almost certainly running over China (if it chose to) within several years (we will need to make sure they use assualt). Only Dai Shun should have a slim chance of successfully resisting the Manchus. thats what we need to simulate. the crown of china events are mostly there just in case humans wants to choose ahistorical paths.
 
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Listen i have no qualms with china's formation requiring all those provinces be controlled 1st.

The problem i have is that for my example in my previous post, china could loose control of all of its provinces to 2 different nations and still be reguarded as legitimate which isn't realistic.

True, that neither of those 2 nations should become the new legit china, but the current one should also fall.
 
it's still not that unrealistic to retain china if lost control of all those provinces to 2 different minors. those 12 mandatory provinces i have deliberately chosen to include only the very core, and there are still quite a number of areas not included but which are definitely significant and recognised as part of China. They included areas/provinces in the south, west and north realistically called Guangdong, Guangxi, Jiangxi, Fujian, Gansu, Hainan, Taiwan, Ningxia parts of Shanxi, Sichuan, and some more. Those areas in fact account for more than the number of mandatory povinces in the game. it is quite probable that China would be controlling most of those areas when 2 different minors control the very core. when that is the case, china retaining legitimacy is still no doubt explanable by one perspective of legitimacy which i have already mentioned (loyalty to regime unless new power emerges unchallengeable).

however, that perspective of legitimacy would become weaker when china is reduced to controlling only one or two provinces of the excluded but significant area, and i can see your point there. BUT, firstly, i dont think there is a way to provide for that situation, ie, lost control of mandatory provinces and control is reduced to only 2 provinces. at least it cant be done without extremely complicating the events. if u can think of a way then of course it's good. secondly, i think that would be a situation that is so close to the situation where China controls none of the Chinese provinces (mandatory and non-mandatory) at all that it would not be significant if we ignore it. when China controls nothing at all, there is a simple way to decide which minor to give the tag to. thirdly, as i have said, we should make it easy for one minor (manchu) to control all the mandatory provinces to the exclusion of other minors (and displace the tag) because historically it was.
 
Code: 
[color=green]
event = {
	id = 147011
	trigger = { NOT = {
			stability = 1
			exist = U11
		 	}
		OR = {
			exist = CHI
			exist = U14
			}
		}
	random = no
	province = 1558
	name = "Resistant leader declares an independant state!"
	desc = "The Ming Dynasty's incompetence and disruption of politics by eunuchs, officials forming opposing parties, corruption plus external pressures caused the decline in Ming power. This resulted in increasing strain on the people burdened by heavy taxes, famine, displacement from farmlands, etc. The Ming forces found it increasingly difficult to deal with the ever increasing peasant uprisings. By 1635, leaders from various resistance groups and camps gathered in a meeting which resulted in agreement to coordinate their efforts to overthrow of Ming. In the following years rebel forces advanced through Henan, Hubei, Shaanxi, Gansu, and Sichuan. On the first month of 1644, Li Zi Cheng declared the establishment of the new Dai Shun state."
	style = 2
	date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1644 }
	offset = 400
	deathdate = { day = 31 month = december year = 1700 }
	
	action_a = {
		name = "We shall crush them!"
		command = { type = stability value = -1 }
		command = { type = revoltrisk which = 6 value = 1 }
		command = { type = independance which = U11 }
		command = { type = trigger = 147013 }
		}
	}

event = {
	id = 147012
	trigger = { NOT = {
			stability = 1
			exist = U12
		 	}
		OR = {
			exist = CHI
			exist = U14
			}
		}
	random = no
	province = 1556
	name = "Resistant leader declares an independant state!"
	desc =  "The Ming Dynasty's incompetence and disruption of politics by eunuchs, officials forming opposing parties, corruption plus external pressures caused the decline in Ming power. This resulted in increasing strain on the people burdened by heavy taxes, famine, displacement from farmlands, etc. The Ming forces found it increasingly difficult to deal with the ever increasing peasant uprisings. By 1635, leaders from various resistance groups and camps gathered in a meeting which resulted in agreement to coordinate their efforts to overthrow of Ming. In the following years rebel forces advanced through Henan, Hubei, Shaanxi, Gansu, and Sichuan. On the first month of November 1644, Zhang Xian Zhong declared the establishment of the new Dai Xi state."
	style = 2
	date = { day = 1 month = november year = 1644 }
	offset = 400
	deathdate = { day = 31 month = december year = 1700 }

	action_a = {
		name = "We shall crush them!"
		command = { type = stability value = -1 }
		command = { type = revoltrisk which = 6 value = 1 }
		command = { type = independance which = U12 }
		command = { type = trigger = 147014 }
		}
	}

event = {
	id = 147012
	trigger = { NOT = {
			stability = 1
			exist = U13
		 	}
		OR = {
			exist = MCH
			exist = CHI
			exist = U14
			}
		}
	random = no
	province = 1563
	name = "Resistant leader declares an independant state!"
	desc = "Qing emperor Kangxi decided the 3 tributories, created to reward important former Ming generals for siding with the Manchus during the fall of Ming Dynasty, has become too strong and used various means to reduce their power. Wu San Gui, former general of the Chinese nation."
	style = 2
	date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1640 }
	offset = 400
	deathdate = { day = 1 month = august year = 1678 }

	action_a = {
		name = "We shall crush him!"
		command = { type = stability value = -1 }
		command = { type = revoltrisk which = 6 value = 1 }
		command = { type = independance which = U13 }
		command = { type = trigger = 147015 }
		}
	}

event = {
	id = 147013
	random = no
	country = U11
	name = "We openly declare war!" 
	desc = "Li Zi Cheng delcares his independant state of Dai Shun and declares himself the true emperor of China claiming the Ming dynasty no longer has its divine mandate having abused their power."
	style = 2

	action_a = {
		name = "Ok"
		command = { type = war which = CHI }
		command = { type = stability value = 6 }
		command = { type = fortress  which = -2 value = 4 } 
		command = { type = INF which = -3 value =15000 }
		command = { type = CAV which = -3 value = 5000 }
		command = { type = ART which = -3 value = 10 }
		}
	}

event = {
	id = 147014
	random = no
	country = U12
	name = "We openly declare war!" 
	desc = "hang Xian Zhong delcares his independant state of Dai Xi and declares himself the true emperor of China claiming the Ming dynasty no longer has its divine mandate having abused their power."
	style = 2

	action_a = {
		name = "Ok"
		command = { type = war which = CHI }
		command = { type = stability value = 6 }
		command = { type = fortress  which = -2 value = 4 } 
		command = { type = INF which = -3 value =15000 }
		command = { type = CAV which = -3 value = 5000 }
		command = { type = ART which = -3 value = 10 }
		}
	}

event = {
	id = 147015
	random = no
	country = U13
	name = "We openly declare war!" 
	desc = "The general Wu San Gui, with the aid of the Qing revolted in the time of turmoil from the Ming to declare his own nation of Zhou."
	style = 2

	action_a = {
		name = "Ok"
		command = { type = war which = CHI }
		command = { type = stability value = 6 }
		command = { type = fortress  which = -2 value = 4 } 
		command = { type = INF which = -3 value =15000 }
		command = { type = CAV which = -3 value = 5000 }
		command = { type = ART which = -3 value = 10 }
		}
	}
Code: 
# Dai Shun
# By Jinnai

historicalmonarch = {
	id = { type = 6 id = XXXXX }
	startdate = {
		year = 1644
	}
	deathdate = {
		day = 31
		month = december
		year = 1724
	}
	name = "Li Ze Chang"
	DIP = 6
	MIL = 6
	ADM = 5
}

# Dai Xi
# By Jinnai

historicalmonarch = {
	id = { type = 6 id = XXXXX }
	startdate = {
		day = 1
		month = november
		year = 1644
	}
	deathdate = {
		day = 31
		month = december
		year = 1724
	}
	name = "Zhang Xian Zhong"
	DIP = 4
	MIL = 4
	ADM = 2
}

# Zhou
# By Jinnai

historicalmonarch = {
	id = { type = 6 id = XXXXX }
	startdate = {
		year = 1640
	}
	deathdate = {
		day = 1
		month = august
		year = 1678
	}
	name = "Wu San Gui"
	DIP = 6
	MIL = 6
	ADM = 5
}

historicalmonarch = {
	id = { type = 6 id = XXXXX }
	startdate = {
		day = 1
		month = august
		year = 1678
	}
	deathdate = {
		day = 31
		month = december
		year = 1728
	}
	name = "Wu Shi Fan"
	DIP = 2
	MIL = 2
	ADM = 1
}
[/color]
 
u finally did it. it's great. just a few minor things. for the first 2 events. could u please add in Anhui to the list of provinces in the description (after Hubei).

for the 3rd event, change the last sentence of the description to: "This led Wu San Gui, Lord of the most powerful tributory, to revolt against the Manchus under the name of overthrowing Qing (Manchu rule) and restoring Ming (Han rule)." could u also add in the requirement that Shun and Xi should not exist for that event due to historical circumstances. the date is wrong. it should be the 11th month of 1673.

4th and 5th event give more troops to the revolters. historically the rebel force led by Li Zi Cheng that advanced into Beijing numbered in the millions. Li Zi Cheng should be given 100K at least and Zhang Xian Zhong a bit lower. also spelling mistake in the 5th event.

Wu San Gui should not be able to revolt from the Ming so 6th event should be scrapped.

i dunno if the province triggers are better. i think the events would still work even if the provinces are controlled by someone else. but i dont think the event should work if the provinces are somehow owned by other nations such as Tibet.

tweaking the stats:
Li Zi Cheng failed to secure the loyalty of important Ming general Wu San Gui after he took Beijing. i think this should reflect a lowered DIP. DIP lower to 4. on the other hand his ability to unite most of the rebel forces and lead them to fight across and around large areas of central China should be reflected by a MIL rating i think is equivalent to 8 of many other monarchs. Zhang Xian Zhong's military achievements are perhaps less than Li Zi Cheng but still effectively led forces to fight across a large area, should be given a 6 MIL. he is more compromising than Li Zi Cheng, in fact having "pretended to" surrender to Ming forces for one year after early defeats to use as an opportunity to replenish his forces. DIP raised to 6. ADM raised to 4. Wu San Gui is definitely a person of compromises and willing to negotiate all the time. DIP raised to 8. MIL lowered to 5. ADM stays. Wu Shi Fan didnt have much achievements, much doesnt suggest he is as bad as the really terrible monarchs that positively cause turmoil and suffering. i will give him 3/3/4.
 
Code: 
[color=green]
event = {
	id = 147011
	trigger = { NOT = {
			stability = 1
			exist = U11
		 	}
		OR = {
			exist = CHI
			exist = U14
			}
		}
	random = no
	province = 1558
	name = "Resistant leader declares an independant state!"
	desc = "The Ming Dynasty's incompetence and disruption of politics by eunuchs, officials forming opposing parties, corruption plus external pressures caused the decline in Ming power. This resulted in increasing strain on the people burdened by heavy taxes, famine, displacement from farmlands, etc. The Ming forces found it increasingly difficult to deal with the ever increasing peasant uprisings. By 1635, leaders from various resistance groups and camps gathered in a meeting which resulted in agreement to coordinate their efforts to overthrow of Ming. In the following years rebel forces advanced through Henan, Hubei, Anhui, Shaanxi, Gansu, and Sichuan. On the first month of 1644, Li Zi Cheng declared the establishment of the new Dai Shun state."
	style = 2
	date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1644 }
	offset = 400
	deathdate = { day = 31 month = december year = 1700 }
	
	action_a = {
		name = "We shall crush them!"
		command = { type = stability value = -1 }
		command = { type = revoltrisk which = 6 value = 1 }
		command = { type = independance which = U11 }
		command = { type = trigger = 147013 }
		}
	}

event = {
	id = 147012
	trigger = { NOT = {
			stability = 1
			exist = U12
		 	}
		OR = {
			exist = CHI
			exist = U14
			}
		}
	random = no
	province = 1556
	name = "Resistant leader declares an independant state!"
	desc =  "The Ming Dynasty's incompetence and disruption of politics by eunuchs, officials forming opposing parties, corruption plus external pressures caused the decline in Ming power. This resulted in increasing strain on the people burdened by heavy taxes, famine, displacement from farmlands, etc. The Ming forces found it increasingly difficult to deal with the ever increasing peasant uprisings. By 1635, leaders from various resistance groups and camps gathered in a meeting which resulted in agreement to coordinate their efforts to overthrow of Ming. In the following years rebel forces advanced through Henan, Hubei, Anhui, Shaanxi, Gansu, and Sichuan. On the first month of November 1644, Zhang Xian Zhong declared the establishment of the new Dai Xi state."
	style = 2
	date = { day = 1 month = november year = 1644 }
	offset = 400
	deathdate = { day = 31 month = december year = 1700 }

	action_a = {
		name = "We shall crush them!"
		command = { type = stability value = -1 }
		command = { type = revoltrisk which = 6 value = 1 }
		command = { type = independance which = U12 }
		command = { type = trigger = 147014 }
		}
	}

event = {
	id = 147012
	trigger = { NOT = {
			stability = 1
			exist = U11
			exist = U12
			exist = U13
		 	}
		OR = {
			exist = MCH
			exist = CHI
			exist = U14
			}
		}
	random = no
	province = 1563
	name = "Resistant leader declares an independant state!"
	desc = "Qing emperor Kangxi decided the 3 tributories, created to reward important former Ming generals for siding with the Manchus during the fall of Ming Dynasty, has become too strong and used various means to reduce their power. This led Wu San Gui, lord of the most powerful tributory, to revolt against the Manchus under the name of overthrowing Qing (Manchu) and restoring Ming Dynasty (Han)." 

	style = 2
	date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1640 }
	offset = 400
	deathdate = { day = 1 month = august year = 1678 }

	action_a = {
		name = "We shall crush him!"
		command = { type = stability value = -1 }
		command = { type = revoltrisk which = 6 value = 1 }
		command = { type = independance which = U13 }
		command = { type = trigger = 147015 }
		}
	}

event = {
	id = 147013
	random = no
	country = U11
	name = "We openly declare war!" 
	desc = "Li Zi Cheng delcares his independant state of Dai Shun and declares himself the true emperor of China claiming the Ming dynasty no longer has its divine mandate having abused their power."
	style = 2

	action_a = {
		name = "Ok"
		command = { type = war which = CHI }
		command = { type = stability value = 6 }
		command = { type = fortress  which = -2 value = 4 } 
		command = { type = INF which = -3 value =150000 }
		command = { type = ART which = -3 value = 25 }
		}
	}

event = {
	id = 147014
	random = no
	country = U12
	name = "We openly declare war!" 
	desc = "hang Xian Zhong delcares his independant state of Dai Xi and declares himself the true emperor of China claiming the Ming dynasty no longer has its divine mandate having abused their power."
	style = 2

	action_a = {
		name = "Ok"
		command = { type = war which = CHI }
		command = { type = stability value = 6 }
		command = { type = fortress  which = -2 value = 4 } 
		command = { type = INF which = -3 value =100000 }
		command = { type = ART which = -3 value = 15 }
		}
	}

event = {
	id = 147015
	random = no
	country = U13
	name = "We openly declare war!" 
	desc = "The general Wu San Gui, with the aid of the Qing revolted in the time of turmoil from the Ming to declare his own nation of Zhou."
	style = 2

	action_a = {
		name = "Ok"
		command = { type = caucusbelli which = MCH }
		command = { type = stability value = 6 }
		command = { type = fortress  which = -2 value = 4 } 
		command = { type = INF which = -3 value =10000 }
		command = { type = CAV which = -3 value = 1000 }
		command = { type = ART which = -3 value = 10 }
		}
	}
Code: 
# Dai Shun
# By Jinnai

historicalmonarch = {
	id = { type = 6 id = XXXXX }
	startdate = {
		year = 1644
	}
	deathdate = {
		day = 31
		month = december
		year = 1724
	}
	name = "Li Ze Chang"
	DIP = 4
	MIL = 8
	ADM = 5
}

# Dai Xi
# By Jinnai

historicalmonarch = {
	id = { type = 6 id = XXXXX }
	startdate = {
		day = 1
		month = november
		year = 1644
	}
	deathdate = {
		day = 31
		month = december
		year = 1724
	}
	name = "Zhang Xian Zhong"
	DIP = 6
	MIL = 6
	ADM = 4
}

# Zhou
# By Jinnai

historicalmonarch = {
	id = { type = 6 id = XXXXX }
	startdate = {
		year = 1640
	}
	deathdate = {
		day = 1
		month = august
		year = 1678
	}
	name = "Wu San Gui"
	DIP = 7
	MIL = 5
	ADM = 5
}

historicalmonarch = {
	id = { type = 6 id = XXXXX }
	startdate = {
		day = 1
		month = august
		year = 1678
	}
	deathdate = {
		day = 31
		month = december
		year = 1728
	}
	name = "Wu Shi Fan"
	DIP = 4
	MIL = 3
	ADM = 3
}
[/color]
Ok i left the last event, changing it slightly because this atleast gives the newly formed nation some type of force (revolters would get the rebels as force, since he can't revolt he'd have nothing).

Wu San Gui:
I put diplomacy at 7. You didn't state anything that really showed he was a great diplomat, above the cut, just willing to compromise more than the rest. That doesn't mean he should be up there with the near-greats (8-9 are for the best of the best, with 9 usually for someone who is before his time in thinking (a genius) in that category.

Wu Shi Fan:
I moved the 4 to diplomacy to more follow his father. How much of a military leader was he?

Oh yea that reminds me, i need leader stats for any of those leaders, atleast the 1st 3.
 
ok they are about right. remember in 5th event, u left out the "Z" at the start of the description. monarch name for Li Zi Cheng needs to be corrected as well. Ok, i know what ur talking about for the last event. but actually, what should be better is to put in revolt = no for the revolt files in Zhou (and southern Ming as well). that would solve the problem and the last event could be removed.

for leader stats, one thing i'd want to know, does siege stat still have effect when troops were assualting and are both fire and shock effective in assualts?
 
Originally posted by Sun_Zi_36
ok they are about right. remember in 5th event, u left out the "Z" at the start of the description. monarch name for Li Zi Cheng needs to be corrected as well. Ok, i know what ur talking about for the last event. but actually, what should be better is to put in revolt = no for the revolt files in Zhou (and southern Ming as well). that would solve the problem and the last event could be removed.

for leader stats, one thing i'd want to know, does siege stat still have effect when troops were assualting and are both fire and shock effective in assualts?
Click to expand...
K. i will correct the spelling errors.

As for Zhou, that's exactly why the event is needed, because it can't revolt. Therefore when it is created it will have no army to defend itself which isn't historical.

Ming don't worry about since once they are destroyed, they cannot come back.
 
oh sorry, i got confused with your description for the last event (which is probably my bad bcoz i didnt tell you b4). the Zhou nation should be founded in 1673: third event. (since we are for the moment using the historical date as the startdate). for the last event u r better off using the same description as the 3rd event. (at the time the Qing dynasty has already founded and the revolt was against the Qing, not with the aid of Qing, so it's incorrect). Now, the amount of troops should be something close to Zhang Xian Zhong's, but of higher quality (bcoz they are not peasant rebels). so perhaps give them more cavalry. Zhang Xian Zhong and Li Zi Cheng should also be given some cavalry, although not much.

Originally posted by Jinnai
Ming don't worry about since once they are destroyed, they cannot come back.
Click to expand...
what do u mean by that?
 
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