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EEP East Europe: Part Deux

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Originally posted by Solmyr
Well, I've seen many, many other references to Moscow being the de facto capital. Vladimir just wasn't important anymore by this time.
Click to expand...
We are talking about official capital not de facto capital. Of cause I agree that Moscow was capital de facto. But I have big doubdts that Tver will move capital to Moscow if they manage to form Russia. Vladimir was neutral and traditional and officional capital. Not very important city but anyway.
 
Ok, very interesting. Before it goes any further let's concentrate on important points, shall we? :D

1. I like the idea of an event when Lithuania cedes some provinces to Muscovy (actually, I think we should limit ourselves to Tula only). This should occur for Russia only, be triggered by low Lithuanian centralization, they shouldn't be at war (suicide). Lithuania should always have a chance for executing the traitors, in which case its stability drops, relationship with Muscovy drop, but centralization increases.

2. Time of Troubles. I think it should be very hard to avoid. Have no idea how to implement it at the moment. I think it should be the first priority though.

3. As I said, Vladimir, Suzdal or whatever, the map is wrong, so let's live with that.

4. I upped relationship of Ryazan, Muscovy, Suzdal and Ryazan with Golden Horde to -20 -80 level or so in the first batch, will see how that's gonna work out.

5. Civil war in 1430s-40s is portayed with a war between Muscovy and Suzdal. In my test games, Muscovy have little problems with annexing Suzdal after the first one, so I think it should be Ok for now.

6. Serfdom. I don't understand why Muscovy etc start with serfdom of 10. Come on, if that was true, why would Ivan IV, Godunov, Alexei I and Peter issue laws which would make serfdom stronger and stronger??


That's it for now.
 
Originally posted by Crook
6. Serfdom. I don't understand why Muscovy etc start with serfdom of 10. Come on, if that was true, why would Ivan IV, Godunov, Alexei I and Peter issue laws which would make serfdom stronger and stronger??
Click to expand...
I've been complaining about this since the beginning of beta-testing and I think I even logged a bug on it, but nothing's happened. :rolleyes:

AFAIK none of the Russian states should begin with such high serfdom and also Muscovy shouldn't begin with such high quantity as in the 15th century they relied on a relatively small elite military.
 
1.Actually I think Muscovy should have Tula in 1419 :) That would also let them choose to demand Smolensk back more easily (one of my events).

2.Not sure about this one myself. Perhaps high aristocracy could be one of the triggers (more possible pretenders to the throne).

3.Agreed.

4.Good. I'm thinking of adding vassalage to the Horde as a prerequisite for my event on the contest between Moscow and Suzdal, but that would be pretty pointless if they break their vassalage qucikly.

5.I tested your events too, they work fine for me.

6.Agreed here.
 
1.Actually I think Muscovy should have Tula in 1419 That would also let them choose to demand Smolensk back more easily (one of my events).
Click to expand...

I don't think we should do that. Let's stick to Tula being transferred to Russia in late 1480s if Lithuania agrees to do so. There are simply not too many provinces around. I added Smolensk to claims on Lithuania event, it now occurs in 1487-90 or so. There are more events to come, I think we should really concentrate on Time of Troubles, it should be a big stumbling block.

I also made Oprichnina optional (it triggers only if Russia is at war) - that's also in the first batch.
 
Starting domestic conditions

Some thoughts about starting domestic policies for russian countries:
First number shows as it is now second suggested.

Moscow

Aristocracy = 10 --> 8 (to high, this level of aristocracy should be in Poland or Lithuinia, Moscow have aristocracy but not so powerfull).
Centralisation = 3 (looks OK, but can be made 4)
Innovative = 3 (looks OK too).
Mercantilism = 8 --> 5 (too big, Moscow in 1419 did not know what is the mercantilism, state monopolies comes later, trade is very small).
Offensive = 5 (looks ok).
Land = 8 (looks ok, Moscow troops have some navy experience they was not complitely land)
Quality = 3 --> 5 (too small. Bulk of army of cause militia but there was high professional troops of princ himeself and boyars and there are a lot of tatars which was very professional and was converted to russians).
Serfdom = 10 --> 5 or even 4 (10 is just nonsens, at this time there was no serfdom, there was some serfs but very few of them, most of peasant was free men).

Novgorod

Aristocracy = 6 --> 7 or 8 (It was aristocratic republic after all)
Centralisation = 2 (look Ok. Highly decentralized country, only territories around Novgorod was really controled, but of cause vassals was even in Sibiria).
Innovative = 5 (I just do not know, in some cases Novgorodians looks more religiouse mided people then Moscovites, but they were traders).
Mercantilism = 3 (looks OK, it was client state of Hansa)
Offensive = 3 (looks OK)
Land = 8 --> 7 or 6 (they was not so navy oriented)
Quality = 1 (I will put even 0, they was complitely unprofessional, battle on Shelon-river shows that so clearly (3000 Moscowites defeated 50000 novgorodians))
Serfdom = 7 ---> 5 or 4 (looks too high, I think same level should be for all russian countries)

Ryazan

Aristocracy = 8 --> 6 or even 4 (too much for them, actually they did not have aristocracy at all, only 2 or 3 Russian aristocratic families comes from Ryazan)
Centralisation = 3 (looks Ok)
Innovative = 4 (looks OK, but may be should be 3 as in Moscow)
Mercantilism = 6 --> 5 (same as Moscow)
Offensive = 3 (looks OK, vassal, unagressive)
Land = 8 (may be 9, more land locked then Moscow)
Quality = 3 (looks OK)
Serfdom = 10 --> 5 or 4 (as other countries)

Tver

Aristocracy = 8 (OK)
Centralisation = 3 (looks Ok)
Innovative = 4 (looks OK, but may be should be 3 as in Moscow)
Mercantilism = 6 --> 5 (same as Moscow)
Offensive = 5 (OK, unagressive)
Land = 8 (OK)
Quality = 3 (looks OK)
Serfdom = 10 --> 5 or 4 (as other countries)

Suzdal

Aristocracy = 9 (OK)
Centralisation = 2 (looks Ok)
Innovative = 3 (looks OK)
Mercantilism = 8 --> 5 (same as Moscow)
Offensive = 3 --> 5 (agressive if we think that this is country which take part in feud)
Land = 8 (OK)
Quality = 3 --> 5 (same as Moscow (actually it was one country))
Serfdom = 10 --> 5 or 4 (as other countries)

Pskov

Aristocracy = 6 (OK)
Centralisation = 3 (Ok)
Innovative = 5 (looks OK)
Mercantilism = 3 (OK)
Offensive = 2 (OK)
Land = 8 --> 5 (It was oriented on sea trade as Novgorod, trade was passed through Narva river)
Quality = 5 (OK)
Serfdom = 8 --> 5 or 4 (as other countries)
 
Re: Starting domestic conditions

Some events corrections:

Official events:

1.
#The Russian Orthodox Church declared independent of Constantinople#

Should be triggered by "The Council of Florence and the Union of the Churches" (events 3833 and 3834). This Union was main reason why russian church have been separated. Not the turks. Actually there are unclear evidences that russian soldiers take part in siege of Constantinople on turkish side.

2.
#The Peasantry is brought into Serfdom#

command = { type = domestic which = SERFDOM value = 5 }

Too much serfdom better to write 3. It was only temporary law and not so cruel, peasants was put to the land but have some days to move around).

Crooks events:
1.
#The Sacking of Moscow#
Should be at war with Crimea (actually it was crimeans who did that).

2.
#Vasili Golitsyn's Advisory#
command = { type = DIP which = 1 value = 90 }
Should be 3 or 4. He was much better diplomat as you can think. It was Golitsyn who sign peace with Poland which give Kiev to Russia.
 
Re: Re: Starting domestic conditions

Originally posted by Tanone


2.
#Vasili Golitsyn's Advisory#
command = { type = DIP which = 1 value = 90 }
Should be 3 or 4. He was much better diplomat as you can think. It was Golitsyn who sign peace with Poland which give Kiev to Russia.
Click to expand...

Poland was seriously weekend through series of wars and Cossaks mutiny so gaining an upper hand in peace negotiations wasn't such a great achievment.
 
#The Sacking of Moscow#
Should be at war with Crimea (actually it was crimeans who did that).
Click to expand...

Actually, I think the war should be left alone. It's hard to call a raid a war. Besides, if Crimea for some reason doesn't exist, then it wouldn't prevent Kazan or Golden Horde or even Nogais from doing the same. For that reason, I added an event when Vasili II was captured by Mahmudek, but didn't add the war command. Relations between Tartars and Russian states were more complex than just war and peace.

I like your modifications to DP sliders. However, let's keep in mind that they should be adjusted accordingly for all countries.
 
Originally posted by Crook


Actually, I think the war should be left alone. It's hard to call a raid a war. Besides, if Crimea for some reason doesn't exist, then it wouldn't prevent Kazan or Golden Horde or even Nogais from doing the same. For that reason, I added an event when Vasili II was captured by Mahmudek, but didn't add the war command. Relations between Tartars and Russian states were more complex than just war and peace.

Click to expand...

That's right. Hudging from the experience of Polish-Crimean relations I can also say that Criemans considered it to be pretty much standard policy to raid neighbouring countries to take hostages / slaves which also resultued in a lot of pillaging. They didn't consider such raids as a declaration of war. That's why various plans of military actions against Crimea were aimed at complete eradication of that country and suppression of it's people.

For example around 1640 Polish Hetman Stans³aw Koniecpolski presented a plan (supported by King W³adys³aw) of major war against Crimea and Turkey to be carried with the help of Cossacks and Russia. Under that plan Poland,whose relations with Russia were very strained, was nevertheless willing to help Russia to conquer Crimea as the result being the supression of Crimeans and putting an end to to thier raods into Ukraine would have been perfectly satisfactory result for Poland. Poland was indeed unable to fully colonize and develop Ukraine due to constant Crimea's incursions.
 
Re: Re: Re: Starting domestic conditions

Originally posted by Jan Zamojski


Poland was seriously weekend through series of wars and Cossaks mutiny so gaining an upper hand in peace negotiations wasn't such a great achievment.
Click to expand...

They was very stubborn. And never really confirmed that they have lost this war. Especially hard trade was around Kiev. That was very hard agreement.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Starting domestic conditions

Originally posted by Jan Zamojski


And King Jan Kazimierz (like his brother and father before him) demanded to be called King of Sweden. So what?
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Thats what I am talking about. Thay was very stubborn men. They what to be called Kings of Sweden but do not whant to agree. Thats it.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Starting domestic conditions

Originally posted by Tanone


Thats what I am talking about. Thay was very stubborn men. They what to be called Kings of Sweden but do not whant to agree. Thats it.
Click to expand...

My whole point is to say that having troubles with wining war against Poland being so seriously weakened means that either Poland perfomed extremely well in that war or Russia performed quite badly or both. Anyway I wouldn't use a peace treaty with Poland as an example of extraordinary skills of Golitsin. He might have had other achievments to his credit of which I lack knowledge.
 
A couple more events to go with the other ones:

#Election of Mikhail I#
event = {
id=19002
trigger = { event = 3414 }
random = no
country = RUS
name = "Zemsky Sobor elects Mikhail Romanov a czar of Russia"
desc = "After a lengthy period of turmoil following the death of Fedor I, an election of Mikhail Romanov has finally
brought peace to Russia."
style = 3

date = { day = 21 month = july year = 1613}

action_a = {
name = "We need it"
command = { type = stability value = 2 }
}
}

Definitely needed, election stabilized Russia.
-------------
#Peter's Ambition#
event = {

id = 19000
trigger = {
owned = { province = 510 data = -1}
owned = { province = 511 data = -1}
owned = { province = 512 data = -1}
owned = { province = 513 data = -1}
owned = { province = 514 data = -1}
owned = { province = 515 data = -1}
owned = { province = 1573 data = -1}
}
random = no
country = RUS
name = "Peter's Ambition"
desc = "After securing the victory over Sweden, Peter the Great turned his attention East to sleepy khanates of
Bukhara and Khiva. However, an attempt to conquer them turned out in a catastrophic defeat, and Peter has given up. Nevertheless,
colonization of Kazakh lands continued by Peter's successors."
style = 4

date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1717}
offset = 500
deathdate = { day = 29 month = december year = 1820 }

action_a ={
name = "Let's venture!"
command = { type = addcore which = 516 }
command = { type = addcore which = 517 }
command = { type = addcore which = 518 }
command = { type = addcore which = 519 }
command = { type = addcore which = 520 }
command = { type = addcore which = 521 }
command = { type = addcore which = 522 }
command = { type = addcore which = 1532 }
command = { type = addcore which = 1533 }
command = { type = addcore which = 1534 }
command = { type = addcore which = 1535 }
command = { type = addcore which = 1536 }
command = { type = addcore which = 1594 }
command = { type = addcore which = 1592 }
command = { type = stability value = -1 }
command = { type = relation which = UZB value = -150 }
command = { type = relation which = KZK value = -150 }
}
action_b ={
name = "Let's leave them alone"
command = { type = sleepevent which = 19001 }
command = { type = relation which = UZB value = 50 }
command = { type = relation which = KZK value = 50 }
}
}

#Peter's Ambition II#
event = {

id = 19001
trigger = {
owned = { province = 1592 data = -1}
owned = { province = 1594 data = -1}
owned = { province = 520 data = -1}
owned = { province = 521 data = -1}
owned = { province = 522 data = -1}
owned = { province = 519 data = -1}
}
random = no
country = RUS
name = "Islamic Resurgence"
desc = "Bukhara has served as a seat of Islam in the East since 14th century. Conservatism of local imams and their
supreme influence over local population would ensure a considerable opposition to any non-Muslim dominance
in the government."
style = 4

date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1730}
offset = 500
deathdate = { day = 29 month = december year = 1820 }

action_a ={
name = "Damn, if I only knew!"
command = { type = stability value = -2 }
command = { type = province_revoltrisk which = 520 value = 4 }
command = { type = province_revoltrisk which = 521 value = 4 }
command = { type = province_revoltrisk which = 522 value = 4 }
command = { type = province_revoltrisk which = 1592 value = 4 }
command = { type = province_revoltrisk which = 1594 value = 4 }
command = { type = province_revoltrisk which = 1591 value = 4 }
}
}
 
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