-
We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.
Here's an idea.
Year=1520(or council of trent)
Reforms of the Church
How do you want to reform the church, your Holiness?
A) Accept the Protestant Changes
B) Accept Moderate Changes, Pardon Luther
C) Accept Moderate Changes, Don't Pardon Luther
D) Accept Few Changes
Reorder the options here, please.
Full acceptance of the Protestant Reforms would make the pope protestant(more for fun) or manage to pull the protestants back in.
Moderate changes w/pardon would reconvert some areas.
Moderate changes w/out pardon would do nothing(different from history) that I can think of.
Few changes would cause some minor German areas to bolt, as well as parts of France and P-L.
Thoughts, ideas?
Another one:
Divorce of Henry VIII
Year=year of divorce
A) Grant the Annulment
B) No Way!
A causes England to stay Catholic(can we do that?).
B(historical) causes England to recieve a Bolt the Catholic Church option.
Thoughts, ideas?
Year=1520(or council of trent)
Reforms of the Church
How do you want to reform the church, your Holiness?
A) Accept the Protestant Changes
B) Accept Moderate Changes, Pardon Luther
C) Accept Moderate Changes, Don't Pardon Luther
D) Accept Few Changes
Reorder the options here, please.
Full acceptance of the Protestant Reforms would make the pope protestant(more for fun) or manage to pull the protestants back in.
Moderate changes w/pardon would reconvert some areas.
Moderate changes w/out pardon would do nothing(different from history) that I can think of.
Few changes would cause some minor German areas to bolt, as well as parts of France and P-L.
Thoughts, ideas?
Another one:
Divorce of Henry VIII
Year=year of divorce
A) Grant the Annulment
B) No Way!
A causes England to stay Catholic(can we do that?).
B(historical) causes England to recieve a Bolt the Catholic Church option.
Thoughts, ideas?
Suppose the Pope harnessed the reform movement of the 15th/16th centuries, as was partially done in the mid/late middle ages (12th-13th centuries). Should it be possible, after much blood, sweat, and ducats, to avert the Reformation?
I don't see why not. After all, there was nothing in history to say that that particular reform movement would find the right political climate to survive. And fending off the Reformation doesn't have to mean quashing the movement - it just would never gain the critical mass that it did in RL. I see it developing (devolving?) more into a Albigensian/Hussite/Lollard type thing. Maybe not even that severe.
driftwood
I don't see why not. After all, there was nothing in history to say that that particular reform movement would find the right political climate to survive. And fending off the Reformation doesn't have to mean quashing the movement - it just would never gain the critical mass that it did in RL. I see it developing (devolving?) more into a Albigensian/Hussite/Lollard type thing. Maybe not even that severe.
driftwood
That would also fall under option A, but how do you derail(sleep)the reformation and calvinist movements event-wise? And might just the reformation be derailed, and not the "reformed" movement? Also, how do you stop various countries from converting?
Sorry to be cutting in out of the blue (btw, I am really appreciating what you guys are doing and can't wait for the first instalment of EEP being finally available for download
), but IIRC, religious events (i.e. Reformation, Calvin etc.) are all stored in a separate event file (and are, for the purposes of the game, normal events - although with groundshaking consequences).Consequently, choosing (for the Papacy) to support the reforms could disable (by putting a required trigger) or at least somewhat stave off reformation (and Calvin) events from happening.
Looks good to me. Maybe we could rig some alternative reformation and Calvin events that would occur if the Papacy accepts the reforms(less protestant territories).
If an event option prevents the reformation then you would also need to sleep every event that can change a country or province to protestant. An alternative would be to allow the reformation to happen, but reconvert all the protestant areas. In fact it might be a good idea to remove all the religious preference settings from the scenario definition and do it all with events.
The religious, big events are in separate files, but are just normal events. Don't most events involving religion check that the Reformation (or Jean Calvin or whatever) have happened? If they do, we can just sleep the main event.
David, I realize you had more or less covered much of what I said, I just wanted to kind of cogitate upon the options out loud.
driftwood
David, I realize you had more or less covered much of what I said, I just wanted to kind of cogitate upon the options out loud.
driftwood
"A causes England to stay Catholic(can we do that?)."
Sure. Just make the trigger for England's act of Supremacy event the papacy choosing option B. Granting the annulment should cause big diplomacy hits with Austria and Spain though.
Sure. Just make the trigger for England's act of Supremacy event the papacy choosing option B. Granting the annulment should cause big diplomacy hits with Austria and Spain though.
An Idea- Why not make the Various Huge events (Like Tordesillas), contigent on the papacy not existing(so that they'd still happen even if the Pope was annexed), and make it so that the events are usually done through the Papal States file. For Instance, for the Treaty of Tordesillas Event:
The Treaty of Tordesilla
"With the recent discoveries of Spain and Portugal, Europe is now finding openings to new lands- lands filled with heathens. Spain and Portugal are leading the way in converting them, but the economic incentives in converting heathens have thrust the two kingdoms into rivalry. Mediation may now be necessary to prevent a war that would hinder the spreading of the word of God"
Option A: The Treaty of Tordesillias
Triggers Flag 1(the one that causes the ToT)
+100 relations with Spain
+100 relations with Portugal
Option B: All Christians may convert any heathens:
-50 relations with Spain
-50 relations with Portugal
+50 relations with France(Happy that rivals hindered)
Option C: Demand that the reconquest of the Holy Land take precedence for all
-100 relations with Spain
-100 relation with Portugal(Annoyed that Church is trying to stop them from rather profitable endevors)
Triggers Events in Major Catholic countries giving them CBs on Turks and Mamelukes
The Treaty of Tordesilla
"With the recent discoveries of Spain and Portugal, Europe is now finding openings to new lands- lands filled with heathens. Spain and Portugal are leading the way in converting them, but the economic incentives in converting heathens have thrust the two kingdoms into rivalry. Mediation may now be necessary to prevent a war that would hinder the spreading of the word of God"
Option A: The Treaty of Tordesillias
Triggers Flag 1(the one that causes the ToT)
+100 relations with Spain
+100 relations with Portugal
Option B: All Christians may convert any heathens:
-50 relations with Spain
-50 relations with Portugal
+50 relations with France(Happy that rivals hindered)
Option C: Demand that the reconquest of the Holy Land take precedence for all
-100 relations with Spain
-100 relation with Portugal(Annoyed that Church is trying to stop them from rather profitable endevors)
Triggers Events in Major Catholic countries giving them CBs on Turks and Mamelukes
Last edited:
From the little I've read, didn't the ToT have alot to do with who got to appoint the senior bishops and higher prelates? Would it be worth working that into the ToT decision, since it would have so much impact on control of Church personnel and revenue?
driftwood
driftwood
Hmm- details? I suppose it could involve monetary bonuses and and tax values for the provinces.....
I suppose part of the problem is that the control of the Papacy over the Church in Catholic countries isn't really reflected in the game. So it's obviously difficult to simulate changes in that condition.
I guess you could either raise the province tax value by +1, or maybe just raise centralization by 1, since that would reflect central, royal control over appointments and the increase in productivity would reflect the extra revenue.
driftwood
I guess you could either raise the province tax value by +1, or maybe just raise centralization by 1, since that would reflect central, royal control over appointments and the increase in productivity would reflect the extra revenue.
driftwood
Suggestions:
For ToT event, add a +50 for England for option B.
For ToT event, allow option C to have the Papacy declare a Crusade.
The Crusade will allow(if declared) all participating nations CBs on the territory they're Crusading against(Holy Land, Egypt, and Tunisia are choices), which will be chosen by the Pope. The nations joining will recieve +relations with the Pope and a stability bonus. Whomever controls the selected territories will get an option to turn over the territory to the Papacy, getting a Papal Blessing(+relations with all major Catholic nations, perhaps some $$), or decline(Pope hits the roof), which will allow the Pope to unleash a weapon or two(interdict, excom.=turn Protestant event for rebuked nation) or drop the subject.
Ideas, suggestions?
For ToT event, add a +50 for England for option B.
For ToT event, allow option C to have the Papacy declare a Crusade.
The Crusade will allow(if declared) all participating nations CBs on the territory they're Crusading against(Holy Land, Egypt, and Tunisia are choices), which will be chosen by the Pope. The nations joining will recieve +relations with the Pope and a stability bonus. Whomever controls the selected territories will get an option to turn over the territory to the Papacy, getting a Papal Blessing(+relations with all major Catholic nations, perhaps some $$), or decline(Pope hits the roof), which will allow the Pope to unleash a weapon or two(interdict, excom.=turn Protestant event for rebuked nation) or drop the subject.
Ideas, suggestions?
Good Idea for England.
About the crusade for option C, I suppose it could trigger a non-specific country event for Catholic Countries:
"A great victory has recently been won for Catholicism, with the final sucsess of the reconquista against the Moors in Iberia. With this having happened, the Pope has called on the Christian world to once more unite for another crusade against the infidels"
Option A: Let us go on another crusade!
War with Turkey
War With Mamelukes
War With Morroco
War With Fez
War with Algeirs
War With Tunisia
Stabilit +3
Relations with Papal States: +100
Option B: We are too busy
Nothing Happens
I don't see why the pope would demand the crusaders hand over the holy land, He didn't the last time the holy land was captured.
More ideas:
The Sale of Indulgences(Occurs every 10 years starting in rennaisance until counter-reformation):
"Seeking to increase their wealth and finance projects such as St.Peter's Bassilica, the Popes began to sell forgiveness of sin for both live and dead sinners. Salesman with Slogans Such as "When the coin in the coffers does cling, the Soul from Purgatory will Spring". The indulgences brought in alot of Wealth for the Church, but also disgusted many people into converting to protestantism"
Option A: Agressivley sell Indulgences
+500 Gold
-4 stability
Option B: Encourage Priests to assign fines as Penance
+100 Gold
-1 stabiliy
Option C: Money can not be used to gain merit for the soul
+1 stability
The Spanish Inquisiton:
Triggered by the Spanish actions calling for an Inquisition(The West Europe people might add in a no inquisiton option for them)
"Throughout the Middle Ages, the Church had attempted to stop the rampant persecution of the Jews. The Popes of the middle ages condemned force-conversion of Jews and many of the clergy attempted to hide the Jews. Nevertheless, as with many matters the Pope was ignored, and Jews were often killed for their faith, as religious zealots ignored their own Church. Now with the reconquista complete, the world witnessed some of the worst religious prosecutions yet, and the Church's ban on force-conversions once again ignored."
Option A: Praise the Spanish Inquisition
+100 Relations with Spain
+100 Relations with Castille
+100 Relatins with Aragon
(Repetition to insure the hit happens if Spain is united or not)
-2 Innovativeness
Option B: Ignore the Spanish Inquistion
Nothing Happens
Option C: Condemn the Inquistion
-150 Relations with Spain
-150 Relations with Castille
+3 Innovativeness
The Edict of Tolerance:
"By the 17th Century it was clear the Counter-Reformation had failed at wiping out Protestantism, disheartening many Ultra-Catholics. The Church considered passing an Edict of Tolerance, which would encourage the Catholics to become more moderate and would allow Royal Marriages between Catholics and Protestants. By giving up with attempts to eradicate Luther's heresy, the Catholic countries might be able to improve their standing overall in the world. Some Conservative Bishops have urged the Church however not to give in."
Option A: Extend tolerance to fellow Christians
Does the Edict of Tolerance Flag
+3 Innovativeness
Religion Changes to Catholic(In case Papacy is counter-reformed)
Option B: Do Nothing
Nothing Happens
Option C: Demand a redoubling of efforts to eradicate Protestantism
-3 Innovativeness
Triggers the Pope Demands Eradication of Protestantism event
For that event, it could be another non-nation specific event(Happens to all nations that meet trigger conditions), for Catholic countries:
"Instead of Easening up of relationship with the Protestants as was expected by most, the Church has instead demanded that Catholic Countries rise up and redouble their efforts to destroy the Heretic Nations of the World. The Priests and Bishops have been preaching steadily about the need to eradicate Protestantism, and many of the burgeois and nobility have gone along with this and have petitioned you to join many of the other countries who have become more strict"
Option A: Become Counter-Reformed
Religion Changes to Counter-Reformed
Option B: Ignore the Pope
-3 Stability
+2 Innovativeness
-100 relations with Papacy
And also for now,
Copernicus' findings presented to the Church:
"In the Midst of the counter-reformation, new information has been presented to the Church. Some scientists are now presenting a new geocentric theory, stating that the Earth revolves around the Sound- in spite of what it says in the bible. As this goes against previous Church teaching, and the Aristotlean logic it sponsors, many have called for theses scientists to be tried before the inquisitions"
Option A: Crush these Heretics
-2 Innovativness
+2 Stability
Option B: This issue is not important
Nothing Happens
Option C: Make their work official Church Teaching:
+2 Innovativeness
-2 Stability
About the crusade for option C, I suppose it could trigger a non-specific country event for Catholic Countries:
"A great victory has recently been won for Catholicism, with the final sucsess of the reconquista against the Moors in Iberia. With this having happened, the Pope has called on the Christian world to once more unite for another crusade against the infidels"
Option A: Let us go on another crusade!
War with Turkey
War With Mamelukes
War With Morroco
War With Fez
War with Algeirs
War With Tunisia
Stabilit +3
Relations with Papal States: +100
Option B: We are too busy
Nothing Happens
I don't see why the pope would demand the crusaders hand over the holy land, He didn't the last time the holy land was captured.
More ideas:
The Sale of Indulgences(Occurs every 10 years starting in rennaisance until counter-reformation):
"Seeking to increase their wealth and finance projects such as St.Peter's Bassilica, the Popes began to sell forgiveness of sin for both live and dead sinners. Salesman with Slogans Such as "When the coin in the coffers does cling, the Soul from Purgatory will Spring". The indulgences brought in alot of Wealth for the Church, but also disgusted many people into converting to protestantism"
Option A: Agressivley sell Indulgences
+500 Gold
-4 stability
Option B: Encourage Priests to assign fines as Penance
+100 Gold
-1 stabiliy
Option C: Money can not be used to gain merit for the soul
+1 stability
The Spanish Inquisiton:
Triggered by the Spanish actions calling for an Inquisition(The West Europe people might add in a no inquisiton option for them)
"Throughout the Middle Ages, the Church had attempted to stop the rampant persecution of the Jews. The Popes of the middle ages condemned force-conversion of Jews and many of the clergy attempted to hide the Jews. Nevertheless, as with many matters the Pope was ignored, and Jews were often killed for their faith, as religious zealots ignored their own Church. Now with the reconquista complete, the world witnessed some of the worst religious prosecutions yet, and the Church's ban on force-conversions once again ignored."
Option A: Praise the Spanish Inquisition
+100 Relations with Spain
+100 Relations with Castille
+100 Relatins with Aragon
(Repetition to insure the hit happens if Spain is united or not)
-2 Innovativeness
Option B: Ignore the Spanish Inquistion
Nothing Happens
Option C: Condemn the Inquistion
-150 Relations with Spain
-150 Relations with Castille
+3 Innovativeness
The Edict of Tolerance:
"By the 17th Century it was clear the Counter-Reformation had failed at wiping out Protestantism, disheartening many Ultra-Catholics. The Church considered passing an Edict of Tolerance, which would encourage the Catholics to become more moderate and would allow Royal Marriages between Catholics and Protestants. By giving up with attempts to eradicate Luther's heresy, the Catholic countries might be able to improve their standing overall in the world. Some Conservative Bishops have urged the Church however not to give in."
Option A: Extend tolerance to fellow Christians
Does the Edict of Tolerance Flag
+3 Innovativeness
Religion Changes to Catholic(In case Papacy is counter-reformed)
Option B: Do Nothing
Nothing Happens
Option C: Demand a redoubling of efforts to eradicate Protestantism
-3 Innovativeness
Triggers the Pope Demands Eradication of Protestantism event
For that event, it could be another non-nation specific event(Happens to all nations that meet trigger conditions), for Catholic countries:
"Instead of Easening up of relationship with the Protestants as was expected by most, the Church has instead demanded that Catholic Countries rise up and redouble their efforts to destroy the Heretic Nations of the World. The Priests and Bishops have been preaching steadily about the need to eradicate Protestantism, and many of the burgeois and nobility have gone along with this and have petitioned you to join many of the other countries who have become more strict"
Option A: Become Counter-Reformed
Religion Changes to Counter-Reformed
Option B: Ignore the Pope
-3 Stability
+2 Innovativeness
-100 relations with Papacy
And also for now,
Copernicus' findings presented to the Church:
"In the Midst of the counter-reformation, new information has been presented to the Church. Some scientists are now presenting a new geocentric theory, stating that the Earth revolves around the Sound- in spite of what it says in the bible. As this goes against previous Church teaching, and the Aristotlean logic it sponsors, many have called for theses scientists to be tried before the inquisitions"
Option A: Crush these Heretics
-2 Innovativness
+2 Stability
Option B: This issue is not important
Nothing Happens
Option C: Make their work official Church Teaching:
+2 Innovativeness
-2 Stability
As far as handing over the Holy Land, I get the point.
I like the events, but some sort of long-term CB is nessecary if crusades begin again.
Can you work on a Galileo event, too?
And could someone please begin scripting? I'm willing and happy to test them.
I like the events, but some sort of long-term CB is nessecary if crusades begin again.
Can you work on a Galileo event, too?
And could someone please begin scripting? I'm willing and happy to test them.
Galileo sort of fits in with the Copernicus event I think- whether to accpet the new scientific discoveries of the enlightenment or whether to denounce it as heresy. And ya, I suppose you could add on about a 50 year CB on those Moslem countries. I suppose if you want to begin testing, we should try to think of ones for the first part of the game........
For 1419-1492.....
Fall of the Roman Empire:
Triggered by Turkey owning Constantinople
"The Christian World was shocked when the ancient city of Constantinople, the queen of cities, was captured by the infidel Turks. For Centuries the Eastern Roman Empire had held back the Moslems, but now they have been defeated. With the Turks having won this great victory, now appear poised to launch an invasion of Europe. Perhaps we should call a crusade to save Christendom?"
Option A: Rally Europe to defend itself from invaders
-400 Relations with Turkey
+150 Relations with Hungary
+100 Relations with Venice
War With Turkey
Triggers "Crusade against Turkey event"
Option B: They pose no serious long-term threat
+50 relations with turkey
This would trigger an event for Castille, Aragon, Genoa, Hungary, and Austria to replicate that crusade that was called around when Constantinople fell. The AI should accept for Genoa, Hungary and Venice.
The Fall of Constantinople:
"The Christian World was shocked when the ancient city of Constantinople, the queen of cities, was captured by the infidel Turks. For Centuries the Eastern Roman Empire had held back the Moslems, but now they have been defeated. With the Turks having won this great victory, now appear poised to launch an invasion of Europe. The Pope has now called another crusade against the Moslems, this time a defensive one to prevent the invasion of Europe. Still, many are disheartened over the failure of the last crusades and would not be happy about going on a new one at this point, especially since this is too save foreigners instead of liberate the holy land."
Option A: Heed the Papal call
War with Turkey
CB against Turkey for 50 years
-400 relations with Turkey
-3 Stability
Option B: Enough Holy War for now.
+1 Stability
+50 Relations with Turkey
The Hundred Years War:
"Perhaps the bloodiest dispute in Europe centers around the sucsession to the throne of France. Another the Church intervened in a major dynastic war, it proved decisive in allowing William of Normandy to mobilize his countrymen against England. We could greatly improve our relations with one of the powers by officially supporting one of the claims"
Option A: Do Nothing
Nothing happens
Option B: Support the Plantagenet claim
+100 Relations with England
+100 Relations with Burgundy
-200 Relations with France
Option C: Support the Native French Claim
+100 Relations with France
-200 Relations with England
-200 Relations with Burgundy
The Donation of Constantine proven a Forgery:
"The Donation of Constaintine was a document supposedly written by the Roman Emperor Constantine. The Document, as well as akcnowledging the spiritual authority of the Church, granted it Temporal Authority as well. This document was used to enhance the Pope's territorial claims in Italy. This document, however, was proven to be a forgery, and showed it was written 4 centuries after the death of the Emperor Constantine"
Option A: OK
-4 stability
For 1419-1492.....
Fall of the Roman Empire:
Triggered by Turkey owning Constantinople
"The Christian World was shocked when the ancient city of Constantinople, the queen of cities, was captured by the infidel Turks. For Centuries the Eastern Roman Empire had held back the Moslems, but now they have been defeated. With the Turks having won this great victory, now appear poised to launch an invasion of Europe. Perhaps we should call a crusade to save Christendom?"
Option A: Rally Europe to defend itself from invaders
-400 Relations with Turkey
+150 Relations with Hungary
+100 Relations with Venice
War With Turkey
Triggers "Crusade against Turkey event"
Option B: They pose no serious long-term threat
+50 relations with turkey
This would trigger an event for Castille, Aragon, Genoa, Hungary, and Austria to replicate that crusade that was called around when Constantinople fell. The AI should accept for Genoa, Hungary and Venice.
The Fall of Constantinople:
"The Christian World was shocked when the ancient city of Constantinople, the queen of cities, was captured by the infidel Turks. For Centuries the Eastern Roman Empire had held back the Moslems, but now they have been defeated. With the Turks having won this great victory, now appear poised to launch an invasion of Europe. The Pope has now called another crusade against the Moslems, this time a defensive one to prevent the invasion of Europe. Still, many are disheartened over the failure of the last crusades and would not be happy about going on a new one at this point, especially since this is too save foreigners instead of liberate the holy land."
Option A: Heed the Papal call
War with Turkey
CB against Turkey for 50 years
-400 relations with Turkey
-3 Stability
Option B: Enough Holy War for now.
+1 Stability
+50 Relations with Turkey
The Hundred Years War:
"Perhaps the bloodiest dispute in Europe centers around the sucsession to the throne of France. Another the Church intervened in a major dynastic war, it proved decisive in allowing William of Normandy to mobilize his countrymen against England. We could greatly improve our relations with one of the powers by officially supporting one of the claims"
Option A: Do Nothing
Nothing happens
Option B: Support the Plantagenet claim
+100 Relations with England
+100 Relations with Burgundy
-200 Relations with France
Option C: Support the Native French Claim
+100 Relations with France
-200 Relations with England
-200 Relations with Burgundy
The Donation of Constantine proven a Forgery:
"The Donation of Constaintine was a document supposedly written by the Roman Emperor Constantine. The Document, as well as akcnowledging the spiritual authority of the Church, granted it Temporal Authority as well. This document was used to enhance the Pope's territorial claims in Italy. This document, however, was proven to be a forgery, and showed it was written 4 centuries after the death of the Emperor Constantine"
Option A: OK
-4 stability
Should choosing a side in the 100 yrs. war give the supported side extra permanant CBs? It would seem logical that if English claims were recognized, they woulg recieve CB's on the territory they'd just been recognized as being rulers of. Indulgences fit in this period; just script 20 copies like the magnate event for Byzantium and give them different dates.
Please script these events for me.
Please script these events for me.
Great events, Shi. I had, in particular, wanted to do a Donation of Constantine Proved a Forgery event, but I kept on forgetting to find out when exactly it happened.
David, if Shi doesn't code them, I'll get to them in the next day or two.
driftwood
David, if Shi doesn't code them, I'll get to them in the next day or two.
driftwood
I think a good option for the fall of the second Rome would be to offer to crown the HRE as emperor of all Rome. I don't know if the HEI tag can be used to direct events at the emperor though.