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unmerged(40707)

Just call me Yoda in private!
Mar 1, 2005
20.187
5
As you should know, EU2 source code has been released (link), some teams have been created and, in the end, some expansions could be released by Paradox.

We started a discussion here about interesting enhancements, modifications or new features for the game. But this discussion doesn't have to be specific to SP and furthermore to AGCEEP and MP community can help.

Be aware licensees can't tell about their work without Paradox approval and, thus, won't tell without permission if some features will or won't be included but this doesn't prevent from creating a wishlist.

Here is the beginning of this wishlist:

Common options (can apply to SP too):
-trading map with AI: yes/no
-military access in AI countries: yes/no
-no attrition for 100 ships fleets: yes/no

Specific MP features:
-"ghost" a player nation (minimal AI activity when a player can't participate to a session)
-new diplomatic actions between players only (each could cost a diplomat and/or have a specific interface):
exchange provinces
send money (different from existing gifts)
propose Non Agression Pact (NAP)

For NAPs, same effect as a truce => 5 years for duration (not sure how we could handle a different value without heavy reworking and can't tell if or how it could be done anyway).

Let's continue...
 
Don`t let yourself be involved in dark reality of infamous deceit. Stay on the side of forces of light. Don`t let yourself be fooled and ruined. Once you agree to discuss the problems of heaven, they will force all those who can read and write to sign the old paper to curse your essential freedom to use glorious hamachi. Thus you will lose the most aesthetic feeling of enjoying shameful dishonourable battles of europa-two and you will be reluctant to join the editors tribe and repeat the sorrowful destiny of fatuous Hive.

Or speaking seriously, please give me another beer.
 
Tonioz said:
Don`t let yourself be involved in dark reality of infamous deceit. Stay on the side of forces of light. Don`t let yourself be fooled and ruined. Once you agree to discuss the problems of heaven, they will force all those who can read and write to sign the old paper to curse your essential freedom to use glorious hamachi. Thus you will lose the most aesthetic feeling of enjoying shameful dishonourable battles of europa-two and you will be reluctant to join the editors tribe and repeat the sorrowful destiny of fatuous Hive.

Or speaking seriously, please give me another beer.

damm...i like the poetic justice :) . nice flow( not sure about the "hive" part :confused: ) i always wondered why he really stoped modding(eu2 that is).

seriously, i think yoda is quiet "balanced" and i think he will listen to everyone's requests at least, regardless if those will make the "final cut" or not. i think that now is the right time to try "fixing" certain mp shortcomings of various nature.

my own would be:

- the ability to insert a script with the games rules and other reminders( diffrent from game to game) within the stats ledger while mp is running, so players do not have to alt-tab for that(creating unecessarry latency) or keep asking them over and over again. maybe the ability to see one's own future events for his country( for no need to alt-tab as well)?

side note:-adding a "read on" file for all countries in agceep. from my own personal observations one of the reason agceep is not much considered as an mp scenario is the lack of information in how every nation is design to evolve.also same could be said about sp play as well?( for example how lithuania could become poland or russia, etc). and that in point form, as not to confuse mp candidates looking for a nation to play and getting "lost" in details.


- the ability to swich any player controled nation to "ghost" upon possible CTD by one of the players. also if the player is at war when crashing(against ai only, otherwise a rehost would be necessary anyway), the HOST to have a posibility to "ghost" the ai nation(S) as well until rehost is necessarry for other reasons. now this might be too complex in modding terms but who knows...


- fixing the annoying ctd's when a player is sending RM to another human, and crashing the former by this action( and other such related player to player diplomatic requests).


- fixing the "ghost" armies upon diploannexation. did not seem possible for a long time, but maybe it is now? or at least not having troops inherited at all option?( only as a solution for reducing the number of rehosts due to bugs/etc)


- the host beeing able to see everyones connection speeds and related technical data. as such the GM at least can decide and forsee wich connection are an "asset" and wich are not, and therfore can create an mp with "most important nations" scale to be given to the best connections. and like this avoiding a france( for example only ) that always crashes. generally more control to the host including messages wich tell them if a faster or slower speed can be achived or not, specific to each game's connections "pool".


-the ability for the player in beeing able to chanel (block or allow)neighborhood tech bonus to countries of his own choice(providing those are within same tech tree or not?). this would be a feature that would greatlly improve diplomacy including getting human vassals and thus enhancing a real web of intrigues , prefferences and "real time" optiones.


- making the "slider policy reminder" stick in mp as well so nobody forgets that and "cry" later.


-adding extra personal settings such as "country x is massing troops at our border" and such. now this might create extra latency? in that case would not be ideal. another example: adding possible message for both combatants when they can give or recive stab hits peace offers.


- player having the ability to ban a human alliance member without the need for cb and such.


-an "exchange maps" engine that gives full control to the player of what area(S) or individual province(S)/sea zone(S) he wants to share or not. maybe even having a "copyright" control on the other player in how the former will be using the maps and towards what end, etc. by copyright i mean that the owner of the maps should be instantlly aware of HOW his maps been used by the player that recive them( of course the reciver can share them further but not by lying in how or why).



-increasing and reworking the pirates effect(S) with regard to the "sender". this also could be in sp? pirates do not really create any bonus or handicap( other then a chance to get a bb point wich generally is of low importance in mp game, especially the late period... and for that matter , sending pirates is a pointless effort other then just "annoying" opponent). also an option at the game start to turn pirates "on" or "off" since they are not generally preffered from what i notice in most game rules. and ai sending pirates in an mp game is compleatlly pointless as well, at best annoying again.


- everyone beeing able to see everyones monarch stats( and not just the mostlly irrelevant yellow/red/green) i say irrelevant becouse any monarch with greater stats the 5 or 6 remains an "unknown" factor even for the player himself(unless he looks in the monarch's file).
side note: more random events with triggers "at war = yes" or "at war = no".


- a certain "chance" percentage into destroying all types of buildings(mayor/judge/baliff/population level) as a direct effect of pillage. if that certain pilage suffers pillage year after year, the chances of loosing buidlings shall increase accordinglly. also the player that does the pillage shall receive 50 percents of the cost of the building just destroyed?( the number could be worked out more, just an idea here)


-fix and make CLEAR the faq with regards to/and how centralization and the number of vassals are related to each other, and the effects, bonuses and handicaps that would be the direct result. and other such related aspects of economic "missinformation", that i might forget right now.


-when it comes to the actual eu2 militarry engine i had always found that "antique" at best. would there be any way to add the basic enhacemets as of creating "veteran", "expert" or "recruit" levels? and imput that into the engine by means of increased or lower stats for the generic leader(its fire and shock values).
-as well increase the "shock" and "fire" values possible for leaders, to above the present maximum 6? that would suerlly increase and trim down on the random outcomes of battles especially in earlly period.
- add the option of "break siege" upon attempts by the enemy to assult.
 
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few things :


decentralized slider bugged :
decentralized is suposed to give 2% tech and stabbonus for every vassal you got stackable to 20% according to 1.09 patchnotes
currently the above is bugged to the point your only receiving the first vassal benefits and the manpower is completly messed up to


autotrade doesn't work :
the autotrade system should be fixed so you can use that option like in eu3 and be able to concentrate on other affairs, currently all autotrade does is spam your own cot till its empty, killing your own cot and is not useful in any way
having to send every merchant yourself sucks in mp, part due to the heavy competition between players over spots

a option to trade provs like ego & beregic suggested:
every single game we play we either have to edit provinces from 1 side to the other or do fake wars ingame to do provs swaps both are a huge mess and waiste of time
 
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begeric, very nice interesting list in both fixes and features.

did someone already altered blockading rules ?
i remember in SP i tested to hire pirates near sea CoTs like Malacca, and it turns down revenue about three or more times.

drake, if decentralization will work with vassals like intended, it will be just another big exploit.
 
Tonioz said:
drake, if decentralization will work with vassals like intended, it will be just another big exploit.
Will it really? I mean, there's nobody who considers decentralisation, ever. Even less so in MP. If it worked like it "should", some would keep vassals and go decentra, while some goes centra and annexes the vassals. It would be interesting to see which tactic proves the best, ultimately. I remember a patchnote mentioning "+1 centra for every diplo-annex". If that was put back in, the system would really work, since you fast could go from 0 to 10, with a couple of DAs.
 
now decentralization gives bigger MP pool if there is at least 1 vassal. Centralization gives techspeed and productivity (PE).
The random events make the rule of getting more centralization harder.

If you follow the idea how it was intended, people will hunt for vassals (instead of playing) because it will be only MP pool vs PE (and what is production income of average trade country ? less than 10 percents income).

Drake and other were pure example in several MP games, when they didn`t know this rule is bugged.
 
I always thought limititation of decentralization was working as designed for MP.

Autotrade is cleary broken but this is not specific to MP and we had ideas for entirely reworking this aspect of the game.

beregic said:
seriously, i think yoda is quiet "balanced" and i think he will listen to everyone's requests at least, regardless if those will make the "final cut" or not.
Thanks, this is indeed the goal.

beregic said:
- the ability to insert a script with the games rules and other reminders( diffrent from game to game) within the stats ledger while mp is running, so players do not have to alt-tab for that(creating unecessarry latency) or keep asking them over and over again. maybe the ability to see one's own future events for his country( for no need to alt-tab as well)?
Could you explain this part or give examples?
I'm not sure seeing future events is a good idea and even easy to show when some of them can be the result of the choice of other countries. It could be a big amount of work for a not very satisfying result. See how it was already difficult and a big amount of information but a big step in this direction for AGCEEP documentation, thanks to MichaelM's work.

beregic said:
- add the option of "break siege" upon attempts by the enemy to assult
What do you mean with this?


Some comments:

It is a fact we could have a message when it is time to be able to change sliders.

Techs are abstractions. Not easy to ban a country from bonus. There is always propagation, directly or undirectly.

FAQ are the result of the great work of the community. Of course information can be delivered by developers but, as I said, it will be impossible without Paradox approval.

About eu2 military engine, remember game covers centuries. We need abstraction here too and avoid side effects. For example, it doesn't male sense to see expertise of a unit improve over the centuries and become invicible. But generic leaders could have temporary bonuses. It could balance countries that don't have historical leaders if they are succesful in warfare.


Some interesting proposals already... :)
 
Tonioz said:
begeric, very nice interesting list in both fixes and features.

did someone already altered blockading rules ?
i remember in SP i tested to hire pirates near sea CoTs like Malacca, and it turns down revenue about three or more times.

drake, if decentralization will work with vassals like intended, it will be just another big exploit.


mayby but it will work as intented then and make decentralized a viable option to go, right now centralized is far superior to it and your just gimping yourself by going decentralized

besides the effects are suposed to be capped at 20% making it possible(yet annoyng) to keep 20% stabbonus & same techspeed
decentral would stil be good but not the obvious choise like quality is that to atm
 
ah, indeed, stabcost too
after fixing it the choice will be

"decentralization gives more MP pool + stabcost bonus", while "centralization gives only PE", which is valuable only for big non-trading countries. Both options gives techspeed.

Random events are usually moving country to decentralization, so it will be easy choice. And enough time player will pay to hunt for vassals.

Drake, the current situation that everybody is trying to achieve hard target. After fixing it, everybody will certainly achieve easy target.
 
Tonioz said:
ah, indeed, stabcost too
after fixing it the choice will be

"decentralization gives more MP pool + stabcost bonus", while "centralization gives only PE", which is valuable only for big non-trading countries. Both options gives techspeed.

Random events are usually moving country to decentralization, so it will be easy choice. And enough time player will pay to hunt for vassals.

Drake, the current situation that everybody is trying to achieve hard target. After fixing it, everybody will certainly achieve easy target.
Not the whole picture. A decentra nation will keep a number of vassals (to maximize effects, 10) while a centra nation will not, thus making the centra nation larger. In the extreme case, it will be AT LEAST 10 provinces larger. (I predict that not all decentra nations will at all times have the opportunity to keep only 1-prov vassals, so the difference is likely to be larger). Those 10 provinces provide both the increased PE as well as taxation and census tax. A decentra would only get 50% of taxation, and no census, from it's 10 vassals.

Apart from these economical measurements, there is also warfare. A decentra nation will have a hard time controlling the forts and armies of her vassals. Sending money helps, but it's limited. Therefore if a centra nation can dow the vassal and annex it, before the decentra could react, it would harm the decentra nation's economy horribly (+2% stab cost, +2% techcost, -manpower, -income), while the badboy is the only negative aspect of the centra nation. With continued warfare, perhaps half of the vassals are annexed, and the decentra nation has to either release more vassals (if it can), loosing territory and income, or eat the penalties (+10% stabcost (that's a whole Serfdom step!), +10% techcost, MP and income).

It would be much more vulnerable to war. It is also hard to protect AI vassals that produce lots of negative warscore.
 
Mats_SX said:
Therefore if a centra nation can dow the vassal and annex it, before the decentra could react, it would harm the decentra nation's economy horribly (+2% stab cost, +2% techcost, -manpower, -income), while the badboy is the only negative aspect of the centra nation. With continued warfare, perhaps half of the vassals are annexed, and the decentra nation has to either release more vassals (if it can), loosing territory and income, or eat the penalties (+10% stabcost (that's a whole Serfdom step!), +10% techcost, MP and income).

badboy is the only negative aspect perhaps, but dowing 5 vassals (perhaps without CB) + force-annexing them would give a nice amount of BB...assuming all countries involved are christian and CB's all around it would be 36 BB.

I'd take the +10& stabcost, +10% techcost, MP and income loss anytime.

Mats_SX said:
It would be much more vulnerable to war. It is also hard to protect AI vassals that produce lots of negative warscore.

Don't forget the decentra country will have less WE in a long war. And may actually be able to protect its vassals.
 
In any case, I think it would be interesting to see games with both decentra and centra nations. It would add lots of diversity, give more options, etc. You can even play the same country again, applying widely different tactics. If the decentra bug can be fixed, perhaps it can be balanced also, making it more even centra/decentra. I'm sure that if an expansion IS released, it will be supported with following patches.
 
Why not insert a "wreak vassalage"-option as part of a peace proposal. So that if you control 100% WS of one country that is a vassal of your enemy. Then you can decide that this territory no longer is a vassal of the enemy and thus give him penelties for far less BB
¨
And maybe give a CB on all vassals if war with their lord.

(BB has 10 vassals, if France is at war with BB then he automatically gets CB on the vassals for as long as war remains.)

isn't that how war was supposed to be fought those times anyways?
 
Mats, you made false step aside. Players won`t take european vassals, they will take asian minors, that are not needed to anyone at all.

let`s say 8 players play the game. Everyone for maximum effect getting 10 vassals. 80 vassals ?

It`s fucking idiotic to follow this idea and stimulate people to hunt for vassals in africa and asia. We aim for PvP wars and not exploit of getting as much vassals as you can.
 
2things tonio

you don't get mp from asian vassals so that point would be pointless then
xept for russia/ottos atleast

secund having vassals in europe and outside europe seems alot more reasonable then us annexing entire europe, or entire west africa ect

3 it would enhance the gameplay alot if the bugs are fixed and a option is added to demand vassalchange in peace
 
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it sholud be some "<$THIS>TC trade agreement" as my wish :)

as far as econmic growth of later mid16th heavely depend on trade, some local trade agreements and so embargoes would be very usefull in MP :) to allow or ban other human player in some proper TC, for boosting presence or to decrease others directly competing those who banned

honestly cant imagine how this can be scripted, maybe those trade shields in TCs made clickable for it, or i dont know
 
Tonioz said:
Mats, you made false step aside. Players won`t take european vassals, they will take asian minors, that are not needed to anyone at all.

let`s say 8 players play the game. Everyone for maximum effect getting 10 vassals. 80 vassals ?

It`s fucking idiotic to follow this idea and stimulate people to hunt for vassals in africa and asia. We aim for PvP wars and not exploit of getting as much vassals as you can.
Well, if it is like you say, and people will keep their "vassal base" in Asia and Africa, the gameplay won't be affected, really. People would just get yet another thing to fight over; each other's vassals. If peace-options of "break-vassal" were added, or even "trade-vassal" to demand a vassal to become vassal of war-winner, etc etc.

It won't be very different. As long as centra/decentra options are BALANCED, I am convinced we will see a better gameplay with more variation, more combinations, more ways of playing each nation. There's no braindead centra movements anymore, but an active choice, "decentra and vassals" vs "centra and annexations".
 
admiral drake said:
2things tonio

you don't get mp from asian vassals so that point would be pointless then
xept for russia/ottos atleast

now you get mp from vassal anywhere in world.

Mats, as i wrote before (de)centralization won`t be balanced if the bug is fixed. Specially if they fix that vassal add not only MP pool, but recruit rate.