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Map painter are systematically destroying all PDX games.
They evaluate new content only by how much power creep it has so it allows them to one tag faster and generally make conquest more easy.
Any mechanic that does not serve that goal, or even make conquest harder get complained about.
And because they are so vocal, and sadly numerous, PDX complies, focusing only on obe aspect of the game to power creep it with more modifiers, claims and PU mission while ignoring everything else.
The result ist that the average point when people stop playing because they are so powerful that the game becomes boring comes sooner and sooner and I would even say PDX games have by now stopped being Grand Strategy games and are ibstead just a more fancy version of Risk.
I'm close to wishing the game would be split into parallel editions - one for map painting/acheivements...call it "Ultimate Conquest Edition" and another game that plays more tightly with AI competent enough to be a viable MP-like experience even playing as a major. "Tournament of Titans Edition" maybe?
 
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Wow some posts here really address valid concerns of what is unfun about the game nowadays.
I think what I worry about the most with the upcoming the DLC is that the mission trees are too excessable for the AI
because these are majors, so they have the lucky nations bonus and they never died out in the game except for when I conquered them.

Also I share the antipathy of playing game after the mission bullet points. Nowadays I start as a country and the first thing I look up is the mission tree.
I search for the most beneficial or easy ones and how to get there and then its just working towards that. Like I am payed to do so whether than playing for fun.
But I like doing achievements and optimal play, so essentially I have no other choice than to play strictly oriented to that.

EU IV lost a bit of its sandbox character where you see crazy things in every playthrough. I don't care what countries make it to 1821 but if it's always the same 10 countries that share the world I would be sad. I feel joy when a random ass country grows big and not in a predetermined mission-way.

But dispite all the criticism I also think the devs are tied to the performance of the game, which wouldn't like introducing new daily or monthly ticks.
So there is narrow room for good stuff. Mission trees are just a one time code which makes it so easy to use to keep modelling the game.
Maybe it's time to throw something unneccessary out of the game which wouldn't be missed by most players to make room for new stuff.
 
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EU IV lost a bit of its sandbox character where you see crazy things in every playthrough. I don't care what countries make it to 1821 but if it's always the same 10 countries that share the world I would be sad. I feel joy when a random ass country grows big and not in a predetermined mission-way.
Yes, I agree completely. It makes me happy and I think it should continue to happen because IRL historical outcomes were not guaranteed. So much was about chance or luck. This is why I don't like 'lucky nations' being tied to nations who did well historically. If each playthrough is a different timeline/universe why should they be lucky every time?
 
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Great Projects/Monuments/whatever are definitely the absolute worst addition to the game, but huge, specialized mission trees are also absolutely awful. The devs manage to combine multi-level determinism both at the game level of certain tags/provinces being a lot more special than others for no reason and at the metagame level, where we get railroaded (How can I, the player, gather the most/best buffs?). The AI is incapable of playing the game this way either, it may do so by accident, but there's no scramble for great projects or to unlock/complete the most overpowered missions.

The greatest success is that by introducing more determinism the devs also manage to reduce the historicity of the game. The missions or their rewards are not contextual, neither are the magical monuments which are just random arrays of buffs that make no sense in historical context, and make no sense in game context when it comes to the ones that are not even built at the start of the game. (Why is Ambras Castle destined to be in Inntal? Why does it give the buffs that it gives? Why are the Ottomans constructing a Habsburg royal residence? Why can't they build their own?)

Again, all of this is fine, uniqueness of tags, wonders etc works in Civ, but some of us would be playing Civ if we wanted to play Civ, instead of messing about in a sandbox game with a historical start.

And surely there will be at least one guy saying "but you don't have to finish missions, you can ignore monuments" etc, but the resources diverted to make the game worse could have instead been used to make it better instead of adding more buttons for +%green to click.
 
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I remember once, 7-8 years ago, when without my intervention a lucky Odoyev ended up conquering most of Muscovy and became pretty large. I know I will never see something like that again, and that's sad.
 
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I remember once, 7-8 years ago, when without my intervention a lucky Odoyev ended up conquering most of Muscovy and became pretty large. I know I will never see something like that again, and that's sad.
RIP Big Odoyev. I tried to release one from Russia in my recent game but by then it was too late and the cores had gone.
 
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Determinism is not a problem for the player, because the player can always choose to postpone or even ignore the missions (sometimes it's optimal to wait on completing a mission).

Determinism can be a problem with certain AI countries. Generally England, France, and Castile are balanced enough that one can sometimes majorly weaken the other (sometimes France can even get a foothold on the British isles). However, the Ottomans have more determinism than any other nation and almost never fail, though this may change with the disasters in the next patch. The Mamuluks start with more development than the Ottomans in 1444, but because the Ottomans have so many coded advantages like lucky nation and army pups, the Mamuluks just can't win a battle, not do the Mamuluks every seem to ally an obvious ally like Hungary.
 
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Lucky nations needs to go in the bin.
 
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They do, but Historic is the default (and mandatory for achievements).
Is it that hard to allow achievements to recognize either setting's checksum as valid? I don't pay them much attention, but I can't see lucky nation making enough of a difference to be a requirement to get the pretty badge (or whatever).
 
In addition to powercreep I would also like to draw attention to the addition of modifiers when existing modifiers could do the same work.

For example the new "morale damage dealt" and "morale damage received", army morale already increases morale damage, and increases max morale so would do the same job of those two new modifiers functionally. But it can be argued "morale damage dealt" represents units that are fearsome but aren't that resistant to breaking formation or panicking (cough cough... elephants... cough). But morale damage received is functionally similar to increase in max morale.

The worst offender is the "increased effect from absolutism". 80% of the benefit of absolutism is the administrative efficiency, and other 20% is the discipline. Do anyone care about the foreign core decay? Now "+20% increased effect of absolutism" would give 6 extra AE, and 1 discipline at max absolutism. So what is the point of this modifier? Could a mission reward of 5 AE, which is common, not suffice? Just modifiers for modifiers' sake. All this does is make it difficult to make out the usefulness of various modifiers relative to each others, and in turn gauge the power of various nations.

Also, the new reworks for different nations are limited to just three things. Overpowered missions trees, estate bonuses or government reforms. From emperor dlc onwards I have difficulties remembering any other area that got changed other than these three, besides monuments, which I feel make the game too much like CIV.
And now we see the return of old removed concepts in new packages like, westernisation or protectorates or the tributtons. There are so many areas the game need a touch up. Like improving trade, finding a use for cavalry for every nation and not only those that have +20% or more CCA, reduce feature bloat from related systems like "protect trade" and "hunt pirates", revamp trade goods.

And it's not like that paradox lacks good ideas. They introduced a new role for skirmish cavalry, but only for some Swedish mercenaries, They introduced trade ships that can ferry troops (as it should be ) but only for the Dutch. The new modifier of cavalry having some chance of doing damage to the back row didn't make it into the game, it could shake the lategame only inf-arty meta. Having some control of which goods your colony produces (like investing some cash, and it can be profitable or a disaster) could help colonial nations but is sadly limited to British.

You can say that I am advocating giving special DLC features to every nation, it can be somewhat true. But I am not saying give every feature to every nation. Holy orders for chinese nations make no sense and every nation don't need a equivalent for banners. What I am saying is not limit features that change gameplay fundamentally to a few tags. Like if they ever introduce elephant cavalry (I would love that) in the game it should not be limited to just Siam, because they have a elephant in their flag, but be available to all Indian and south-east asian tags. Now if the British colonises India they can make use of those too. Similarly if a Indian nation colonises the steppe, they could get access to cossacks or tatar cavalry or cultivate a home grown cavalry focused army.

I am lately finding very little of interest in the dev diaries, not only because these are about major nations I will not play. My reaction to the latest diary that introduced a new government reform tier for every nation was "meh, a bunch of modifiers, from overpowered to trash, will be given randomly", and I used yo like these sort of stuff. Too much modifiers and too few new mechanics is making the game boring for me.
 
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In addition to powercreep I would also like to draw attention to the addition of modifiers when existing modifiers could do the same work.

For example the new "morale damage dealt" and "morale damage received", army morale already increases morale damage, and increases max morale so would do the same job of those two new modifiers functionally. But it can be argued "morale damage dealt" represents units that are fearsome but aren't that resistant to breaking formation or panicking (cough cough... elephants... cough). But morale damage received is functionally similar to increase in max morale.

The worst offender is the "increased effect from absolutism". 80% of the benefit of absolutism is the administrative efficiency, and other 20% is the discipline. Do anyone care about the foreign core decay? Now "+20% increased effect of absolutism" would give 6 extra AE, and 1 discipline at max absolutism. So what is the point of this modifier? Could a mission reward of 5 AE, which is common, not suffice? Just modifiers for modifiers' sake. All this does is make it difficult to make out the usefulness of various modifiers relative to each others, and in turn gauge the power of various nations.

Also, the new reworks for different nations are limited to just three things. Overpowered missions trees, estate bonuses or government reforms. From emperor dlc onwards I have difficulties remembering any other area that got changed other than these three, besides monuments, which I feel make the game too much like CIV.
And now we see the return of old removed concepts in new packages like, westernisation or protectorates or the tributtons. There are so many areas the game need a touch up. Like improving trade, finding a use for cavalry for every nation and not only those that have +20% or more CCA, reduce feature bloat from related systems like "protect trade" and "hunt pirates", revamp trade goods.

And it's not like that paradox lacks good ideas. They introduced a new role for skirmish cavalry, but only for some Swedish mercenaries, They introduced trade ships that can ferry troops (as it should be ) but only for the Dutch. The new modifier of cavalry having some chance of doing damage to the back row didn't make it into the game, it could shake the lategame only inf-arty meta. Having some control of which goods your colony produces (like investing some cash, and it can be profitable or a disaster) could help colonial nations but is sadly limited to British.

You can say that I am advocating giving special DLC features to every nation, it can be somewhat true. But I am not saying give every feature to every nation. Holy orders for chinese nations make no sense and every nation don't need a equivalent for banners. What I am saying is not limit features that change gameplay fundamentally to a few tags. Like if they ever introduce elephant cavalry (I would love that) in the game it should not be limited to just Siam, because they have a elephant in their flag, but be available to all Indian and south-east asian tags. Now if the British colonises India they can make use of those too. Similarly if a Indian nation colonises the steppe, they could get access to cossacks or tatar cavalry or cultivate a home grown cavalry focused army.

I am lately finding very little of interest in the dev diaries, not only because these are about major nations I will not play. My reaction to the latest diary that introduced a new government reform tier for every nation was "meh, a bunch of modifiers, from overpowered to trash, will be given randomly", and I used yo like these sort of stuff. Too much modifiers and too few new mechanics is making the game boring for me.
Fully agree, but I believe none of this will be implemented because EU4 is too old, EU5 is already in development behind closed doors and the order to Tinto was to make several small, cheap, uncomplicated DLC to get some more money out of the game before EU5 is ready.
Or PDX fears that EU5 will share the same fate as CK3 and Vicy 3 and thus they prolong the life of their moneymaker artifically.
 
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I'm close to wishing the game would be split into parallel editions - one for map painting/acheivements...call it "Ultimate Conquest Edition" and another game that plays more tightly with AI competent enough to be a viable MP-like experience even playing as a major. "Tournament of Titans Edition" maybe?
Your post seems to imply that the AI is bad on purpose to appease map painters which just isn't the case. Making an AI that plays on the level of an MP opponent with no cheats is just not plausible.
Map painter are systematically destroying all PDX games.
They evaluate new content only by how much power creep it has so it allows them to one tag faster and generally make conquest more easy.
Any mechanic that does not serve that goal, or even make conquest harder get complained about.
And because they are so vocal, and sadly numerous, PDX complies, focusing only on obe aspect of the game to power creep it with more modifiers, claims and PU mission while ignoring everything else.
The result ist that the average point when people stop playing because they are so powerful that the game becomes boring comes sooner and sooner and I would even say PDX games have by now stopped being Grand Strategy games and are ibstead just a more fancy version of Risk.
It's unfortunate that you continue to possess this "us vs. them" mentality of the community. Pushing a cartoonishly evil view of people who play the game in a different manner than you is just not helpful discourse.
 
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It's unfortunate that you continue to possess this "us vs. them" mentality of the community. Pushing a cartoonishly evil view of people who play the game in a different manner than you is just not helpful discourse.
Its also not helpful to bury your head in the sand and deny that this conflict exist.
One common complain through all PDX games except HoI is that realms are too stable which leads to massive snowballing, aborted games around the half way mark and ahistorical developments.

Yet every time PDX tried to implement something that would slow down conquest and snowballing mappainter come out in force to complain, even using the existence of a world conquest achievment as justification that conquest must be easy and PDX is not allowed to make it harder (completely ignoring all the power creep that happened).

That even goes so far that map painter do not openly talk about bugs and exploits they found because they don't want PDX to fix them before they could post their newest one tag record that uses said exploit.
 
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But what else should they do? Update all the major powers and give them super generic boring stats and debuffs? No one would buy the DLC in that case. It's an optional DLC, you can ignore it if you want and it's not going to magically effect your game in any way. No one is forcing you to buy the DLC, no one is forcing you to accept these buffs and power creep. It's a DLC for people who want a fresh challenge and playthrough with well-known and well-played nations. And while I don't totally agree with the DLC's execution (IE overwriting previous DLC), I don't really see how they could have done it differently without it being boring and getting no sales.
 
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Yet every time PDX tried to implement something that would slow down conquest and snowballing mappainter come out in force to complain, even using the existence of a world conquest achievment as justification that conquest must be easy and PDX is never allowed to make it harder
Any change that will make it hard for a decent player to maintain a big empire will make it impossible for AI to expand at all. Unless you introduce blatant asymmetry and/or AI cheating on a vastly different scale.

What you want is an asymmetric narrative game, and Paradox games are clearly a different genre that can only look this way when you learn the game but not yet understand it.

Edit: I don't mean it in a condescending way. Plenty of games are fun as long as you don't really get the rules, and all the magic and mystery disappears once you know how to play them. Plenty of narrative strategy games like this, Suzerain, Six Ages, maybe Thea. Maybe even Crusader Kings. Not EU4 though, clearly. It's a game where internal mechanics are a friction, not a real danger, they limit how fast can you expand, not whether you can hold the state together.
 
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Its also not helpful to bury your head in the sand and deny that this conflict exist.
One common complain through all PDX franchises except HoI is that realms are too stable which needs to massive snowballing, aborted games around the half way mark and ahistorical developments.
Not 100% true. CK3 is an absolute pain to keep your even relatively small nation stable, at least it was in the early days of the game. I went to form Rome with Byzantium, and man I was having revolts every single month. It was unbearably tedious to try and keep your empire together. I managed it, but it was not a very rewarding or fun experience. It was like the game was almost forcing your nation to collapse, which is not rewarding in the slightest to the player.

Imagine playing a game where you have a somewhat decent starting point, then over the course of that game, the game takes away the starting point you had bit by bit, and by the end of the game you have nothing that you started with and are signficantly smaller and weaker. That's not a rewarding experience, regardless of whether it's harder or realistic. PDX have to make it somewhat feasible for you to expand and deceliop in their games as otherwise many are just going to turn and run, take Vic3 for example, one big downside of that is the inability to expand properly. It's not exactly a fun or rewarding playthrough being sat looking at your nation for 200+ years with no expansion or changes. CK3 can sort of get away with it because of it's focus on the players character but Eu4, Hoi4 and Vic3 need that gameplay loop to make them enjoyable.
 
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Its also not helpful to bury your head in the sand and deny that this conflict exist.
One common complain through all PDX games except HoI is that realms are too stable which leads to massive snowballing, aborted games around the half way mark and ahistorical developments.

Yet every time PDX tried to implement something that would slow down conquest and snowballing mappainter come out in force to complain, even using the existence of a world conquest achievment as justification that conquest must be easy and PDX is not allowed to make it harder (completely ignoring all the power creep that happened).

That even goes so far that map painter do not openly talk about bugs and exploits they found because they don't want PDX to fix them before they could post their newest one tag record that uses said exploit.
Please kindly consider that said opposition arises because EU4 is fundamentally a wargame and a game of expansion, and was designed as such from the beginning. Opposition does not exist because some drooling nimwit will not be able to make his color bigger, as you seem to believe; it exists because functionally, suggestions to "slow down conquest" would only increase the amount of the most unengaging gameplay in EU4: peacetime. I see very few, if any of the anti-blobbing suggestions account for this, which makes me wonder if people understand the primary focus of EU4 gameplay, or if it's sufficiently obscured that people don't understand what they're really asking for.

Make peacetime fun, and I'm all on board with decreasing the emphasis on conquest as the core gameplay.
 
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Please kindly consider that said opposition arises because EU4 is fundamentally a wargame and a game of expansion, and was designed as such from the beginning. Opposition does not exist because some drooling nimwit will not be able to make his color bigger, as you seem to believe; it exists because functionally, suggestions to "slow down conquest" would only increase the amount of the most unengaging gameplay in EU4: peacetime. I see very few, if any of the anti-blobbing suggestions account for this, which makes me wonder if people understand the primary focus of EU4 gameplay, or if it's sufficiently obscured that people don't understand what they're really asking for.

Make peacetime fun, and I'm all on board with decreasing the emphasis on conquest as the core gameplay.
Ah yes the usual trick.
Demanding that PDX makes peacetime more fun first but at the same time being against any mechanic that would distract from constant war and mappainting in order to enhance peacetime.

Nice try.
 
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