Ever read the IV forum?

[TomorrowsHerald]

One day, I will actually manage to stick with HOI4. I have it in my library, I have some DLCs, but I just can never get into it, even the KR version. But it is not this day. Frankly, it comes down to the degree of control I expect to have over my forces. In DH, my armies fight like clock work, down to which armies attack in what times, when the Ints sweep down to win air superiority, when the Tacs commence ground support, when the CAS (if I have any) demolish the retreating formations. I can't do anything in HOI4, I have to actively fight the game systems to fight the way I want to, and even then my authority remains far too restricted.

(And frankly, I don't care what factory builds my guns, I just want my economy to build the bloody guns, why do I, the supreme warlord, have to deal with this?)

To be fair to HOI3, I did play a full, very satisfying, game as the Spanish Republic in the Civil War. But I just couldn't get into it past that game. The problem was micromanaging; too many things to worry about slowing the game into a bit of a slog. DH might not be friendly to newcomers, but once you get how the systems work, it doesn't stay complicated. HOI3 always remains a bit on the complicated side even once you get it (which also takes a while) so that game remains my last.

DH has got a bit too easy over the years, but since I play it either as a challenge run with self-imposed restrictions or as a casual experience, I don't mind it. I do think the game and the community around it are slowly dying a little every year, which is natural for such an old game, but hey, it's still being developed (somewhat) at least some of the mods are getting updated and even a few new ones turn up every now and then, and I still enjoy playing it more than I do newer games.

A day may come when that will no longer hold true.

But for now...

 

[J_Master]

I do this every once in a while to remember why I will never buy that game - and to laugh at some of the problems that are reported.

I do this with the Victoria 3 forums , but thanks for this thread because I already know I can freely air some grievances here

I will say that I like one thing about IV. The way that they have organized "decisions" into a logical flowchart. I also like how you can use said chart to influence your countries path for sandbox play. Aside from that, it is way too dumbed down imo. DH and HOI3 are both better games imo.

Genuinly the singularly worst choice HoI4 made. In the context of just that game it's fine, it's a selfadmitted crutch for the AI, but it's just steeped into so many other PDX titles as a generic mechanic that now there's people demanding missions to allow the Ottomans to go tengri in EU5. Bro, firstly it's called scripting and you can do it with a event as well and second, has the reveered "wider audience" gone so insanely stupid that they think you can't just do things without PDX making a clear cut button for you like a mother bird chewing up a worm for her children?

The army organization system is the best thing about HOI3 imo. I prefer HOI2 research style, but I do like how you are not restricted to 1 doctrinal path. You can research infantry doctrines for your infantry and mobility doctrines for your mobile units without restriction. I am one of those who use HQs as combat units, so keeping my HQs in range is much less of an issue. The noncombatant status of HQs, especially at the corps level was a real hassle otherwise. Jmo, ymmv

This is why I can't just singularly dismiss HoI4 as a title. There's a obvious attempt to innovate compared the HoI2 (+derivatives) and HoI3. HoI4 obviously was intended to allow you to create units smaller than divisions. It's a attempt to wrangle with HoI3 OOB system into something more managable. It's just that those units proved entirely combat ineffective and the OOB system just doesn't make me feel in controll. Ideally, the whole system would evolve towards something where the game simulates only the lowest level units (regiments perhaps) buy then displays that information in a different manner. Allow me to easily cram a corps into a singular province in Northern France in a WW1 game, and allow me to spread a division over multiple tiles on the WW2 Eastern Front. At the same time, HoI4's OOB system is obviously responcible for V3's warfare system which is the most derided element of that game, something I don't even agree with because the fundamental design philosophy of its economy is worse

The only conclusion I could draw, was that I just wasn't as unhappy with Darkest Hour HOI as the developers apparently were. Some people like hoi4 better. I bought it, tried it, couldn't get into it. Simple as that.

From a grand strategy boardgame background, I'm not into sprites, and spritey maps. And hoi4 is a spritefest. It lost me early with making builds, supply, and command more complex than a world leader should have to manage IMO, while simplifying tech in ways that don't seem as realistic. Then it seemed in order to compensate for complicating the economy, they simplified managing wars.

In the end, it just didn't have the 'feel' I was looking for. It took almost nothing from Darkest Hour. Perhaps that could work better for a modern day, or different game. By Paradox calling it HOI, it's kinda rendering everything previous as obsolete in a way. Which I definitely disagree with. Darkest hour survives.

I think this gets to the core of what makes Darkest Hour the best HoI game to date: the player feels absolutely in charge without being overwhelmed. Managing the Eastern Front isn't a weekend long adventure of setting up the OOB like in HoI3 (which is what some people have needed to do in BICE) or the feeling of letting the game run itself like in HoI4 because you've built the build and you have already won.

And as @waterwong12 said, Hoi4 is very fun to play with some friends. And unlike DH, Hoi4 is actually receiving new patches. DH 1.06 seems to be years away (if they ever release it at all).

That's fine. A game doesn't need endless support. Good enough is good enough, you know the experience you're gonna get and it's either good or bad. No coping about "muh future patches". FFS some of the biggest games out there are open source versions of classics like OpenRCT or OpenTCT.

(And frankly, I don't care what factory builds my guns, I just want my economy to build the bloody guns, why do I, the supreme warlord, have to deal with this?)

If you ignore the whole appearance of the system with individual factories placed in individual states, it's actually just plain old IC with more oppertunity to give priority to one thing or another. Yeah and you can't build a navy with the same IC as a land army anymore which is a pretty damn good improvement

DH has got a bit too easy over the years, but since I play it either as a challenge run with self-imposed restrictions or as a casual experience, I don't mind it. I do think the game and the community around it are slowly dying a little every year, which is natural for such an old game, but hey, it's still being developed (somewhat) at least some of the mods are getting updated and even a few new ones turn up every now and then, and I still enjoy playing it more than I do newer games.

Man if only I knew how to mod DH, I have plenty of ideas to submod KR with...

 

[macgregor2150]

I think this gets to the core of what makes Darkest Hour the best HoI game to date: the player feels absolutely in charge without being overwhelmed. Managing the Eastern Front isn't a weekend long adventure of setting up the OOB like in HoI3 (which is what some people have needed to do in BICE) or the feeling of letting the game run itself like in HoI4 because you've built the build and you have already won.

Exactly. There's an element of almost Milton-Bradley intuitive, durable play-abilty to it. I have no problem with the AI. Considering how complex the game is, the AI exceeds my expectations greatly. But I don't think the game really gets fully appreciated enough until you get into group multiplayer with like 6 players. And play with people all over the world? You can even play with each player taking his own country! To me, a guy who grew up in the 60s, that's like some some sort of Fullerian fantasy.

 

[TomorrowsHerald]

If you ignore the whole appearance of the system with individual factories placed in individual states, it's actually just plain old IC with more oppertunity to give priority to one thing or another. Yeah and you can't build a navy with the same IC as a land army anymore which is a pretty damn good improvement

Fair. I'll be more clear, I don't much care for the whole weapons procurement system down to the individual guns and weapons being used. If it was joined together with a war system on the same level as DH, I'd probably come to appreciate it, but because this is the part that's more complex instead, I've come to resent it.

Exactly. There's an element of almost Milton-Bradley intuitive, durable play-abilty to it. I have no problem with the AI. Considering how complex the game is, the AI exceeds my expectations greatly. But I don't think the game really gets fully appreciated enough until you get into group multiplayer with like 6 players. And play with people all over the world? You can even play with each player taking his own country! To me, a guy who grew up in the 60s, that's like some some sort of Fullerian fantasy.

One thing I've missed doing so far, though I expect I'd get pretty decidedly beaten, as I tend to be a bit too methodical to keep the pace. I could probably manage playing as some sort of secondary power in a multiplayer game pretty well, but I wouldn't go near all the larger ones, bar perhaps Italy or France. I play France a lot, in KR and in vanilla and other mods, so I probably could hold the line with it if supported by a solid UK player, or aggressively push it into the industrial rich areas of Germany in the case of an early war, but that's about the limit of what I could do. I don't have the attention span to handle USSR, USA, UK or Germany in multiplayer.

Man if only I knew how to mod DH, I have plenty of ideas to submod KR with...

With the pace of AI evolution, that actually might become a very plausible option. DH code isn't that complex (it's mostly just time-consuming to deal with) I can low-key mod it or make changes to save files when I want to, even though I never modded anything else in my life (other than Treasure Planet Battle At Procyon come to think of it, but in a very light way.) AI already can go through game files for me and point me to event triggers and the like as I edit the chance the AI will take a course of action (especially in KR) or want to quickly edit event chains that occasionally get a bit broken. It probably could create a mod for you soon enough.

 

[agent栁]

Man if only I knew how to mod DH, I have plenty of ideas to submod KR with...

What do you need to know

I can train you up on Discord, for free

 

[macgregor2150]

One thing I've missed doing so far, though I expect I'd get pretty decidedly beaten, as I tend to be a bit too methodical to keep the pace. I could probably manage playing as some sort of secondary power in a multiplayer game pretty well, but I wouldn't go near all the larger ones, bar perhaps Italy or France. I play France a lot, in KR and in vanilla and other mods, so I probably could hold the line with it if supported by a solid UK player, or aggressively push it into the industrial rich areas of Germany in the case of an early war, but that's about the limit of what I could do. I don't have the attention span to handle USSR, USA, UK or Germany in multiplayer.

As much as it's my fantasy, there's nothing easy about finding 6 players with the time, desire, and the ability to connect. Finding 6 players that can agree on who plays as what in what mod is the next step. Then I've had disputes over peripheral rules, like: should/could this country be played by human or AI? I've always wanted both a China and a Japan. Not neither and not just Japan. 6 being an even number beats 7 to me. And can be accomplished by combining the China and USA player into one player who can transfer from China to USA at some point(French capitulation?) I think the pool of players exists to get games like this going. But without some centralized 'league of players' getting them organized into games doesn't happen for the most part.

 

[J_Master]

Fair. I'll be more clear, I don't much care for the whole weapons procurement system down to the individual guns and weapons being used. If it was joined together with a war system on the same level as DH, I'd probably come to appreciate it, but because this is the part that's more complex instead, I've come to resent it.

That's HoI4 in a nutshell. Individually, the features are fine. Together, they're a troubled beast. But they have been a disastrous influence on wider PDX design philosophy

With the pace of AI evolution, that actually might become a very plausible option. DH code isn't that complex (it's mostly just time-consuming to deal with) I can low-key mod it or make changes to save files when I want to, even though I never modded anything else in my life (other than Treasure Planet Battle At Procyon come to think of it, but in a very light way.) AI already can go through game files for me and point me to event triggers and the like as I edit the chance the AI will take a course of action (especially in KR) or want to quickly edit event chains that occasionally get a bit broken. It probably could create a mod for you soon enough.

How easy would it be to backport Home of the Brave to KR 1.7? Just as a very conrete question since what I want to do requires some designing still

What do you need to know

I can train you up on Discord, for free

Backporting Canada's stuff from KR 1.9 to 1.7, event chains about post war reconstruction being given to Canada instead of the BRA (the BRA at that), a Imperial Conference event chain. Oh and then a complete redesign of South Africa and Mittelafrika including Legation Cities-esque foreign investements

 

[son of liberty]

Why not go on the discord and ask the KR team directly?

 

[macgregor2150]

One thing I've missed doing so far, though I expect I'd get pretty decidedly beaten, as I tend to be a bit too methodical to keep the pace. I could probably manage playing as some sort of secondary power in a multiplayer game pretty well, but I wouldn't go near all the larger ones, bar perhaps Italy or France. I play France a lot, in KR and in vanilla and other mods, so I probably could hold the line with it if supported by a solid UK player, or aggressively push it into the industrial rich areas of Germany in the case of an early war, but that's about the limit of what I could do. I don't have the attention span to handle USSR, USA, UK or Germany in multiplayer.

Mp is indeed a totally different animal that requires experience juggling your own needs in terms of time, with that of the other players. Losses are immediate and permanent, as is your emotional reaction. How to handle the speed and pausing of the game is yet another thing the group has to agree on. There are so many ways someone may prefer to play this game. What's a shame is that there is no way to match people with others that want the same thing. And then there are personalities, languages, schedules and connect-ability that all have to vibe if the game is going to be enjoyable. Perhaps just a huge player roster where people can match their preferences with others would help. I've seen this with other games.

 

[TomorrowsHerald]

That's HoI4 in a nutshell. Individually, the features are fine. Together, they're a troubled beast. But they have been a disastrous influence on wider PDX design philosophy

How easy would it be to backport Home of the Brave to KR 1.7? Just as a very conrete question since what I want to do requires some designing still

Backporting Canada's stuff from KR 1.9 to 1.7, event chains about post war reconstruction being given to Canada instead of the BRA (the BRA at that), a Imperial Conference event chain. Oh and then a complete redesign of South Africa and Mittelafrika including Legation Cities-esque foreign investements

What version of DH were these different versions even using? I don't remember, but if it did use different versions, that might already be a problem.

Other than that, I think the bigger problem would the scope here and how later version event chain relate to others. The more countries you want to change, the bigger the pile up of potential issues with related event chains. Canada specifically influences a fair amount of event chains, so backporting it could be challenging. It's well beyond what I generally do so I couldn't tell you. At most, I'll move around events, maybe create a few new ones to give my KR games more content once the main sequence of events runs its course. You would need to dig up the change logs to see exactly what was changed between versions in those files.

Still, it's possible, depending on how much those event chains changed between versions, but I'd try to get someone in the KR team's advice on how to do it.

 

[son of liberty]

Back in the day of hoi2, I would make small events for secondary theaters. Like for Peru and Bolivia to merge and fight brazil or Chile and Argentina to join together also giving Brazil cores on Uruguay and Paraguay. Eventually leading to South America going to the victorious side of either peru-bolivian confederation, Gran Colombia, Greater LaPlata, or Greater Brazil. It has been so long that I am no longer skilled in that way though. KR was always my favorite alt history mod.

 

[agent栁]

Backporting Canada's stuff from KR 1.9 to 1.7, event chains about post war reconstruction being given to Canada instead of the BRA (the BRA at that), a Imperial Conference event chain. Oh and then a complete redesign of South Africa and Mittelafrika including Legation Cities-esque foreign investements

Last time I was an active DH and KR player I don't even think hoi4 was out, I barely remember KR.

I mean what do you want to change - events, decisions, ministers? That I can teach, and we've got a fantastic Barbarossa season offer now, for a grand total od $00.000.0 you can be taught!

 

[son of liberty]

Last time I was an active DH and KR player I don't even think hoi4 was out, I barely remember KR.

I mean what do you want to change - events, decisions, ministers? That I can teach, and we've got a fantastic Barbarossa season offer now, for a grand total od $00.000.0 you can be taught!

The price is definitely right. I just need to get my free time back.

 

[agent栁]

The price is definitely right. I just need to get my free time back.

verily yes, you and everyone else are welcome anytime
I'm actively modding FtG and forgot plenty of DH but should be easy to find my way back

Is there any sort of DH discord? There is FtG one and its super sweet and cozy, I was thinking one day a unifiied Europa Engine Society should come together no?

 

[Tommy Vercetti]

verily yes, you and everyone else are welcome anytime
I'm actively modding FtG and forgot plenty of DH but should be easy to find my way back

Is there any sort of DH discord? There is FtG one and its super sweet and cozy, I was thinking one day a unifiied Europa Engine Society should come together no?

Join the Darkest Hour Modding Server Discord Server!

Check out the Darkest Hour Modding Server community on Discord - hang out with 242 other members and enjoy free voice and text chat.

discord.gg