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Delta5ff

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Nov 24, 2015
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I've always found it irritating that somebody who was revealed to have killed my previous ruler or close family member is pretty much untouchable. Or people who lose their civil war against me.

I should be able to execute such people without the entire world thinking that I'm a tyrant. Yes the family of the person been executed shoul take offence. But also it shouldnt be a really big penalty as committing regicide, murdering the royal family or rebelling against your liege were probably the 3 most serious crimes you could commit.

Rulers often would have had no choice in these circumstances. To not execute would be to show weakness and invite more trouble.

Some crimes should given a traitor modifer that gives the justification to execute.
 
Fairly certain some transgressions do actually give you a reason to execute. Someone trying to murder you, for example. Its just really restricted.
 
Conversely, I feel that throwing someone in the oubliette should be considered tyrannical and murder. It's weird that executing someone counts for such, but killing them slowly by leaving them to rot doesn't. For further support of this point: Richard II gets considered a tyrant in no small part because of effectively imprisoning his nephews and having them die in his dungeons.

But back on topic, yes. Strongly. I hope CK3 expands the reasons for just executions, especially catching people in plots to assassinate other nobles (be it plotting or carried out), and how much more so when it is a close member of the ruling family.
 
Fairly certain some transgressions do actually give you a reason to execute. Someone trying to murder you, for example. Its just really restricted.
The only people I've found that can be lowborn captives and peasant leaders from peasant rebellions. Normally to a nobody would care modifier. Ivener see it where I wouldn't get tyranny for an execution on someone from a prominent house.
 
Conversely, I feel that throwing someone in the oubliette should be considered tyrannical and murder. It's weird that executing someone counts for such, but killing them slowly by leaving them to rot doesn't. For further support of this point: Richard II gets considered a tyrant in no small part because of effectively imprisoning his nephews and having them die in his dungeons.

But back on topic, yes. Strongly. I hope CK3 expands the reasons for just executions, especially catching people in plots to assassinate other nobles (be it plotting or carried out), and how much more so when it is a close member of the ruling family.
Agreed. If their plotting to kill some random count in another realm thay shoudny warrant anything yoo severe, but plotting to kill me or my child is another matter all together and they should expect to be imprisoned and executed pretty quickly.

And if they do add justified executions the choice should be between execution or oubliette. And chucking some one in the oubliette without justification should be considered tyrannical.

Unless they keep they current tyranny situation in witch case the oubliette is the only way to deal with traitors.
 
Oh yes, I suppose I should add that clarification: plotting to assassinate other nobles in the same realm should be a justification for imprisonment, etc. Targeting other realms could fall either way. I'd argue definitely little qualm if it was a realm of another religion. Same religion makes it murkier.

Regardless, oubliette shouldn't be a level of how imprisoned someone is. I feel it should be, as mentioned above, a form of execution. One tosses a prisoner in there and "forgets" about them, hence the name (oubliette being from French for 'to forget', after all).
 
On a separate point maybe even be able to put people on trial who are in the dungeons to determine if they are a traitor or not.
That could turn out to be really interesting. Some of the most severe crimes could warrant a direct execution, while some murkier ones would need a court case to decide the guilt. If done properly, the character aspect could be very deep (which is what the devs are going for).

Also, if a character inherits a title as a result of a suspicious death, then they might have to solve the murder, or suffer an opinion penalty with vassals if they don't. After all, would you trust your liege, if he/she can't even find who killed the previous ruler? This could be limited to King/Emperor and it could possibly only effect the vassals of the gained title. This means that you'll be pressured to find a culprit. If you can't find the actual culprit (or you are the culprit), you could try to accuse somebody else. This should only work if you have very high intrigue and/or diplomacy, in comparison to the accused. Accusing an innocent landless character who doesn't have anybody to defend them should be much easier than a powerful and influential vassal (or even an enemy King). A high religious character might be able to convince that a suspicious death was an "act of God", instead of having to find a culprit. Finally, a high martial character might for for trial by combat, if laws allow for it.

Oh yes, I suppose I should add that clarification: plotting to assassinate other nobles in the same realm should be a justification for imprisonment, etc. Targeting other realms could fall either way. I'd argue definitely little qualm if it was a realm of another religion. Same religion makes it murkier.
A court case could be the way decide this. If it's a clear crime, then execution is almost a certainty. However, if the defendant can mount a proper defence (e.g. victim was heathen, has higher diplomacy/intrigue than accuser, the realm prefers him/her to the accuser, ect..) then it could be a risk failure could be bigger. If the accuser looses the case, then they should loose face (opinion loss, or if the case goes extremely badly, they could be accused themselves, especially if they are the real culprit).

If you want to avoid a case, then you could jump directly to the punishment, as it might be too much micro for every crime. The punishments could be fines, loss of limb, being sent to a monastery, imprisonment, execution, ect... As a guidance, a list of crimes and the appropriate punishments would be required. Tyranny would be incurred, if the culprit isn't certain and/or the punishment is too sever/soft (only cutting the culprits had off for regicide could anger vassals as much as being too harsh). The punishment could also be linked to the judges type of character and possibly using the stress mechanic.

If one vassal accuses another within the same realm, then their liege should reside/be judge, while if you are accusing a subject you would be the judge (unless a law is introduced, creating a high judge...). If the defendant and accuser are in different realms, then an independent adjudicator will be required. If they are they are the same faith, this could be a neighbouring religious authority. The Pope might even be called upon, if Kings/Emperors start accusing each other. I'm not really sure who it should be, if the accuser and defender are in different realms and of different religious (a simple solution could be to just spawn a random character).

TLDR; Crimes should have matching punishments, depending on the severity. If you want to accuse somebody who's guilt isn't certain; impose a disproportionate punishment without tyranny; or accuse somebody who isn't your subject, then you will need a court case. The outcome should depend on the diplomacy/intrigue of the accuser and defender, relationships, as well as the actual evidence (possibly coming from evidence/'hook' system already announced). A case should be a risk, as if you loose, you will have to suffer the consequences, ranging from opinion loss to death.
 
Come to think of it, perhaps it could tie into something similar to Conclave's council rights, too, with varying degrees of what sort of rights the accused has. Magna Carta did, after all, did demand due process from the king's justices.
 
Come to think of it, perhaps it could tie into something similar to Conclave's council rights, too, with varying degrees of what sort of rights the accused has. Magna Carta did, after all, did demand due process from the king's justices.
Yes, great idea. As well as having laws defining the punishments, you would have laws defining the structure of the court. One could be the identity of the high judge (the ruler, a vassal, or a priest). Then you could allow for a panel of judges with the high judge (still possibly the ruler) still in charge, or an impartial panel of judges.
 
Targeting other realms could fall either way. I'd argue definitely little qualm if it was a realm of another religion. Same religion makes it murkier.

I'm not sure that I'd bring religion into the equation here. What I'd do, is if there is a known plotter against another realm, and you don't do anything about them, it's a BIG relationship hit with the targeted character and his family, allies, etc. Imprisoning the plotter, no effect on their opinion of you. Execute the plotter, and it's a small plus to their opinion.
 
A court case could be the way decide this. If it's a clear crime, then execution is almost a certainty. However, if the defendant can mount a proper defence (e.g. victim was heathen, has higher diplomacy/intrigue than accuser, the realm prefers him/her to the accuser, ect..) then it could be a risk failure could be bigger. If the accuser looses the case, then they should loose face (opinion loss, or if the case goes extremely badly, they could be accused themselves, especially if they are the real culprit).


If you want to avoid a case, then you could jump directly to the punishment, as it might be too much micro for every crime. The punishments could be fines, loss of limb, being sent to a monastery, imprisonment, execution, ect... As a guidance, a list of crimes and the appropriate punishments would be required. Tyranny would be incurred, if the culprit isn't certain and/or the punishment is too sever/soft (only cutting the culprits had off for regicide could anger vassals as much as being too harsh). The punishment could also be linked to the judges type of character and possibly using the stress mechanic.

The trials could be done via event change where at the end you get a choice between multiple punishments and your have to choose which one to use. Your character might only not get stress from a benevolent punishments and youd risk upsetting your vessels if you wanted to stay in character or Visa versa your cruel character might get stressed if he cand do something horrific.

And as for player decisions do you risk the stress levels and tyranny to finally get rid of some potential threats over minor crimes?

Yes, great idea. As well as having laws defining the punishments, you would have laws defining the structure of the court. One could be the identity of the high judge (the ruler, a vassal, or a priest). Then you could allow for a panel of judges with the high judge (still possibly the ruler) still in charge, or an impartial panel of judges

While a player natural instinct is to rule everything with absolute power and authority deciding to give away control of been the judge in trials it could have some nice gameplay implications. Do you keep power yourself? Or if the positions were honorary titals you could use them to help keep unruly vessels on side.

A panel of judges could be done two ways. A panel were they are all equal or a panel with a head judge that can overrule and have more authority over proceedings. The later would still give you a hand in trials if you didn't hand out the head judge position for increased opinion.

And if you was going hand them out as honorary titles you'd have to decide between giving it to yes men so you could still get the result you want or people who don't like you and would probably go against your wishes but you have to take the risk because you need the opinion bonuses.
 
I hope we can torture without releasing :oops:
It does seem like that could be plausible, with what has been released in the articles, speaking about a focus on intrigue and blackmailing. Torture could, if Paradox wished to go down that route, play well in that system.

That said from a CK2-perspective (and thus ignoring the comment above), though releasing a prisoner after torturing them seems bizarre from a realism point of view, what difference would torture have from just out-and-out executing the prisoner if they were kept imprisoned?
 
That said from a CK2-perspective (and thus ignoring the comment above), though releasing a prisoner after torturing them seems bizarre from a realism point of view, what difference would torture have from just out-and-out executing the prisoner if they were kept imprisoned?

I would like an option to torture further at the cost of tyranny which would be fair :oops:
 
I would like an option to torture further at the cost of tyranny which would be fair :oops:
Fair, I suppose! Mechanically, though, any real difference from just executing them? That is, of course, beyond prolonging it out and seeing how many injuries they can endure? :p

Mind, again, all this could well be a moot point if CK3 allows torture to play into their blackmailing system that seems to be getting developed.
 
That said from a CK2-perspective (and thus ignoring the comment above), though releasing a prisoner after torturing them seems bizarre from a realism point of view, what difference would torture have from just out-and-out executing the prisoner if they were kept imprisoned?
Gives you more dread than an execution. And maybe it's someone you don't want dead yet. Killing them could be problematic with claims or inheritances.
 
Gives you more dread than an execution. And maybe it's someone you don't want dead yet. Killing them could be problematic with claims or inheritances.
But torturing them moves them closer to being dead. Also, uncertain what is meant about "dread", or are you referring to what might be in CK3?
Sometimes you have Cruel trait and feel miserable after you have to release someone after torturing them :oops:
Never knew about that! Then again, rarely had a Cruel character live too long as my ruler, admittedly.