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zeruosi

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I didn't initially plan to write such a long post. But I realized there was so much I wanted to say. This is going to be an extremely long and massive post. Let's get started.

I didn't expect that I would need to write so many parts, so I've decided to create a table of contents.

Part I: Why China is Called "China," the Boundaries of China's Territorial Expansion, and the Reasons Behind Millennia of Conflict Between Agriculture and Pastoralism

Let’s first address the first question: Why is it called “China”?

As seen on a topographic map of East Asia, China occupies a relatively isolated geographical environment. To its west lies the world’s highest plateau—the Tibetan Plateau—and the second-largest shifting desert; to the north stretches the vast and barren Mongolian steppe. To the east, it faces the world’s largest ocean, while to the south are the world’s third-largest peninsula and its largest archipelago.

For ancient Chinese, their homeland was the best place in the world—an unquestionable and self-evident Celestial Empire. In contrast, the smaller civilizations surrounding them paled in comparison.
china(1).png

I’ve roughly outlined the core regions conducive to early civilization development in different colors. It’s evident that China’s core area was significantly larger than those of other regions. Only the Indian subcontinent, located on the far side of the Tibetan Plateau, could rival China’s core in scale.

Although the Central Asian civilization zone marked in blue isn’t small in size, it consists mostly of mountains and deserts, making it incapable of forming a civilization strong enough to rival early Chinese dynasties.

Thus, once ancient China achieved unification, it would immediately exert immense pressure on its surroundings and embark on outward expansion. The surrounding small states and early civilizations were utterly incapable of resisting this Leviathan and could only be devoured and annihilated by it.

This leads us to the second question: Where are the boundaries, or the limits, of China's expansion? What is meant by the term "imperial barrier"?

When we overlay the territories of all Chinese dynasties, we can roughly identify this region — representing the maximum extent of military expansion that Chinese dynasties could potentially achieve under extremely ideal conditions. We observe that these frontiers were invariably blocked by massive mountain ranges and water bodies, or by tropical rainforests.
asian(1).png

In times of imperial zenith, an empire could expand its borders far beyond its core, creating unstable frontier zones beyond the natural barriers—mountains, rivers, deserts, and rainforests—as shown on the map. These areas served as buffer zones between vassal states and regions under stable military control.

However, during periods of imperial decline, these buffer zones would rapidly shrink or be lost, retracting to a more stable territorial core. Should the empire weaken further, it would contract back to its heartland.
asian(2).png

Here’s my rough sketch of the relatively stable territories versus the contracted core regions. We can observe that these boundaries are also delineated by mountain ranges. The relatively stable territories resemble the territorial extent of the Qing Dynasty, which reached its maximum expansion during the modern era. By then, global dynamics had shifted, preventing the Qing from projecting power beyond those formidable natural barriers.

The shape of the core region mirrors what we see in Europa Universalis IV for the Ming Dynasty (some dynasties fell in 1644, but others had already lost peripheral territories by 1444). This represents a dynasty in full defensive posture, where the border lies mere tens of kilometers from the core, shielded by mountains and deserts. Such contraction could result either from a deliberate choice to conserve strength or from catastrophic losses that severed control over distant regions.

Beyond the above, we can also observe that the contraction of Chinese dynastic territories in the south was relatively minor, whereas the northwest experienced disproportionately large losses. This disparity stems from the South’s proximity to China’s core regions. After the Yangtze River basin was developed, the Nanling Mountains—which separate Guangdong and Guangxi from the north—proved less formidable than other natural barriers. Moreover, Guangdong and Guangxi lacked expansive central plains to rival the economic and military might of the Yangtze region. In contrast, Vietnam possessed a larger core plain, enabling it to break free from Chinese control when opportunities arose.

Yunnan’s relative stability under Chinese rule, however, was due to the local tusi (tribal chieftains). The most secure pivot of Chinese influence in the southwest was Sichuan, particularly the Chengdu Plain. Beyond Sichuan, expansion southward was hindered by rugged terrain and complex geography. Compared to Guangdong and Guangxi, Yunnan enjoyed greater autonomy—but its fragmented landscape also prevented the emergence of a strong, unified regime capable of challenging the Central Plains dynasties. The only exceptions were the Nanzhao and Dali kingdoms (circa Tang to Yuan dynasties), which remained politically decentralized. Once these smaller power centers were dismantled, the southwest devolved into a patchwork of tusi polities too fractured to resist central authority. They could only remain semi-dependent on the empire.

China’s influence here resembled the mandala systems of Burma or Siam, albeit on a vastly larger scale. This expansive mandala extended Chinese reach deep into the Zomia highlands.

In the northwest, particularly in Xinjiang, the primary geographical barrier was the desolate, uninhabited deserts. Thus, Central Plains dynasties only needed to seize a few key strongholds to gain access to the Hexi Corridor and reach the Tarim Basin. The Tarim Basin has always been sparsely populated, making it impossible to resist the Central Plains. Moreover, since the Silk Road passed through this region, Central Plains dynasties often exerted pressure here to secure necessary trade revenues. Consequently, the northwest’s borders fluctuated dramatically over time.

Regarding the Tibetan Plateau, it became part of the empire’s sphere of influence after the Yuan Dynasty. Like Xinjiang, the plateau was sparsely populated, with vast uninhabited areas (such as Qiangtang), and its main population centers concentrated in the southern river valleys. Although difficult to march through and lacking supply lines, the Tang-Tibet Ancient Road allowed for rapid military campaigns to seize these population hubs.

The northern grasslands, however, were another region of extreme fluctuation. The vast steppes were hard to control, as there were few cities to serve as administrative centers. Thus, the grasslands were often the first to be lost by Chinese dynasties. This ties into the third issue: the millennia-long conflict between agriculture and pastoralism, which we will discuss later.

Because nomads lacked fixed settlements, Central Plains dynasties struggled to maintain long-term control over the steppe regions. Control depended heavily on the personal decisions of local rulers. The exception was the Qing Dynasty, which stabilized the grasslands by becoming the Khan of Mongolia and securing legitimacy through marriage alliances with the Golden Lineage (descendants of Genghis Khan). By transforming nomads into semi-sedentary herders, the Qing successfully anchored the steppe peoples, ensuring firm control over the northern grasslands.

Finally, cold Northeast Asia was difficult to control before the Tang Dynasty, as the Liaoxi Corridor had not yet risen from the sea. During the Tang, Chinese dynasties began extending their influence into the region. Before this, expansion northward was slow, relying on the Liao River waterways. After the Liao Marshes disappeared, land-based expansion became possible, and during the Liao and Jin Dynasties, Northeast Asia was developed and incorporated as core territory. However, the Yuan Dynasty later destroyed many settled cities, leading to a collapse. Although the Ming Dynasty made some efforts, the Little Ice Age and the Qing Dynasty’s forced relocations ultimately rendered these efforts futile.

For Northeast Asia, it has always been a relatively forgotten land. The primary threats to Chinese dynasties never came from the northeast. Thus, the Qing chose to relocate populations inward... and then Russia arrived in the Far East.

In conclusion, control over Northeast Asia depended on whether the Central Plains dynasties sought to develop it. If they did, it could become core territory within a few centuries. If not, like other regions, it would gradually be lost as national power waned.

Based on the above analysis, we can conclude that the boundaries of China's expansion and the so-called "imperial barriers" largely coincide with the territorial extent of the Qing Dynasty, with only minor adjustments.

The imperial barriers were primarily determined by two factors: the limits of military control and the limits of information transmission. Imagine you're an emperor of China—if your orders take over a month to reach the frontier regions, effective governance becomes unstable. Beyond the limits of information transmission lies the limit of military control, which typically extends slightly farther. Armies stationed here can suppress unrest and maintain order in unstable areas. However, troop movements require food and supplies, and without passing through relatively prosperous regions, the logistical burden of feeding a large army becomes staggering. According to ancient Chinese records, a supply wagon carrying 100 jin (approximately 50 kg) of grain would have only about 5 jin left after a month's journey—this marks the outer limit of military control.

Thus, apart from the relatively weak Song Dynasty, all Chinese dynasties eventually reached their expansion limits and encountered these unbreachable imperial barriers.

Now, let's move on to Part III: The Millennia-Long Struggle Between Agriculture and Pastoralism.


First, let’s examine the following set of maps, which illustrate:


  1. The boundary between China's agricultural and pastoral regions
  2. The arid-humid divide
  3. Rainfall distribution boundaries
  4. The division between monsoon and non-monsoon regions
  5. The separation of endorheic (internal drainage) and exorheic (external drainage) basins
  6. Temperature zone demarcations
1.png
1 (1).png
1 (2).png
1 (3).png
1 (4).png
1 (5).png

We can observe a striking similarity among these maps, revealing that climate profoundly shaped China's history and the trajectory of its civilization. Climate dictated where nomadic lifestyles thrived and where sedentary agriculture took root.

The millennia-long struggle between agriculture and pastoralism essentially revolved around this faint yet decisive climatic boundary. This line marked not only the outer limit of arable farming but also the optimal grasslands essential for nomadic herding. Neither side could concede this territory—there was no room for peaceful coexistence. It was a fight for survival, a zero-sum contest.

The intensity of this conflict depended on the harshness of the climate and temperature fluctuations. Over thousands of years, the territorial reach of nomadic empires and Central Plains dynasties expanded and contracted in tandem with rainfall patterns and temperature shifts.

We must recognize a crucial fact: nomadic peoples could not naturally form large-scale nomadic empires. Due to the inherent challenges of centralized management among nomads, the world's first fully developed, large-scale nomadic empire was none other than the Xiongnu. (The Scythians, while significant, do not qualify as a fully mature, large-scale nomadic empire.)

The rise of the Xiongnu Empire occurred shortly after the formation of the Qin Dynasty. Prior to this, nomadic tribes in northern China lacked the incentive to form centralized empires. The very catalyst for the creation of nomadic empires was, paradoxically, the unification of China. The energy unleashed by a unified agrarian civilization drove nomads from their beloved grasslands and disrupted the raiding patterns of smaller tribal groups. To survive, nomads were forced to abandon their traditional ways and form massive empires to counterbalance the agrarian states—a concept known as the "Mirror Empire Theory."

The stronger the agrarian empire, the more powerful the nomadic empire it would spawn. Thus, at the far eastern edge of Asia, the agrarian leviathan and the nomadic behemoth engaged in two millennia of bloody conflict—until Europeans reshaped the world.

Throughout this struggle, the agrarian empires often emerged victorious. Their superior economies, larger armies, and greater populations gave them the upper hand. Yet, their victories were always temporary. Agrarian empires could never penetrate, control, or settle the steppes, nor could they establish cities there. Thus, while they consistently defeated nomadic empires, they could never eradicate nomadism itself. Once an agrarian empire weakened, the nomads would inevitably resurge, sparking new cycles of conflict.

This also meant that nomadic empires depended on the existence of agrarian empires. When an agrarian empire collapsed, nomadic empires would soon lose their cohesion and disintegrate as well.

For instance, when the Ming Dynasty fell, the Mongols, who had opposed the Ming for two centuries, were completely crushed and absorbed by the Qing Dynasty. Similarly, the rise of the Qing coincided with the emergence of the Zunghar Khanate, the last and most powerful nomadic empire in Asia.

There are only two ways to end this endless cycle:

  1. Summon Einstein from the world of *Command & Conquer: Red Alert* and invent a weather control device.
  2. Let technological progress render all else obsolete, as industrialization supersedes everything.




I've now completed a rough overview of the first part. Next, I'll update the second part, which will cover:
  1. Why some regional factions in China's provinces succeeded while others failed
  2. How to unify China amidst fragmentation
  3. Where rebellions first broke out
  4. The rationale behind the policies of the Song, Ming, and Qing Dynasties
 
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Also, I'd liek to add Mongolia, which half of its provinces are desecrated with Russian names and I'd like them to at least have an appropriate Mongolian name at the game start,
Also, Turkish players can have my support for naming Golden Horde provinces in Turkic instead of Russian.
 
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This is very meaningful.
A vast empire expanded to its limits, the ruler of East Asia, with the nomadic nation to the north as its sworn enemy.
Apart from industrialization, there is no way to completely destroy a nomadic empire. As the undisputed hegemon of East Asia, China has always been constrained by various factors, leaving it unable to expand freely—not because of some mysterious "Mandate of Heaven."
Also, I'd liek to add Mongolia, which half of its provinces are desecrated with Russian names and I'd like them to at least have an appropriate Mongolian name at the game start,
Also, Turkish players can have my support for naming Golden Horde provinces in Turkic instead of Russian.
Indeed, aside from the names of the steppe regions, Siberia is also saturated with a plethora of Russian place names.
This is quite an enjoyable read. In particular what would you think is essential to add to EU5 based on the writing?
I'm still pondering how these real-world elements determine the in-game modifiers. But perhaps it can simply be treated as an informative post.
 
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For instance, when the Ming Dynasty fell, the Mongols, who had opposed the Ming for two centuries, were completely crushed and absorbed by the Qing Dynasty.
I mean the Mongols willingly submitted to the Manchus as they were already weakened from infighting so might as well be. Even the division between Inner and Outer Mongolia stems from the order of their submission.
Also, having the Mongols as vassals was a huge legitimacy and military boost for the emerging Qing dynasty, which used Mongol soldiers to decimate the Dzungars.

Summon Einstein from the world of *Command & Conquer: Red Alert* and invent a weather control device.
elite ball knowledge :p
 
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This is a great video on historical Chinese geography I highly recommend.


Really informative stuff and a good companion piece to this thread. Looking forward to your further posts!
 
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Mongols willingly submitted to the Manchus as they were already weakened from infighting so might as well be.

Ligdan Khan: No! Don't listen to him my beloved Monglian kids! He speaks the evil tonge of Manchu!


Just kidding. There were Mongols submitting to Manchu, but only those had formed ties with them to begin with, represented mostly by the Khorchin tribes lived near manchuria. I don't think most Mongols submitted until Ligdan Khan was defeated by Hong Taiji around 1630s and lost his claim of the throne over Mongols. Outer mongolians weren't that important apart from the Siberia Khanate, which was supporting Ligdan and fled after his defeated.

On the other hand, the idea of "Divided Mongols" are more about "East and West" rather than "Inner and Outer (more like south and north)". The latter was from the perspective of Russian and English observers looking at the steppe by the time of 1850+ in the last days of Qing.
 
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In fact, one of the important factors for the Manchu Qing Dynasty to rule Mongolia was the marriage with various Mongolian tribes, and the power classes of the two ethnic groups had a high degree of common interests. If the Han emperor could do this, he might not necessarily need the support of industrialization and firearms to rule the grassland.
 
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I do not think that the strength of the Central Plains Empire will lead to the strength of the nomadic peoples. On the contrary, the more the Central Plains dynasty declines, the stronger the nomadic peoples will be. If the main reason for the unification of the Xiongnu was to defend against the powerful Central Plains dynasty, why didn't they unify when the princes and the King of Zhou were expanding against the Xiongnu, but instead formed an alliance and forced the princes to build the Great Wall after these expansions stopped? If the Xiongnu's strength was really due to the strength of the Central Plains dynasty, then they shouldn't have weakened rapidly after Qin unified China. From history, we can see that every time the nomadic peoples established a powerful regime, the Central Plains Empire declined due to its inherent land annexation conflicts and then overthrown by peasant uprisings. Afterwards, the nomadic peoples were either hit hard by the new and powerful empire, or took advantage of China's internal divisions to establish new dynasties in China like the Yuan and Qing dynasties. The Central Plains dynasties have always deliberately restricted the power of nomadic peoples. When the Central Plains dynasties were strong, the nomadic peoples could only roam on the barren and cold grasslands, with a sparse population and relying on trade with the Central Plains for necessities of life. The Central Plains dynasties usually deliberately restricted trade with nomadic peoples, on the one hand to obtain huge profits through official monopoly of trade, and on the other hand to restrict the nomadic peoples' exchanges with the border areas and reduce rebellion.As a result, nomadic peoples often had to invade and plunder border areas, which in turn strengthened the border areas' dependence on the central government because they had to seek shelter. At the end of the dynasty, a large number of peasant lost their land and became displaced. To them, the Central Plains was more like hell than the grasslands. A large number of Han people fled to the grasslands, the common feature between them and the nomadic peoples was that they hated the tyrannical and brutal Central Plains dynasties, which led to the fact that many nomadic peoples were actually descendants of the Han people. A survey shows that Genghis Khan has royal genes from the Han Dynasty. The immigration of the Han people not only increased the population of the grasslands, but also brought advanced technology and the idea of great unification, which strengthened the power of the nomadic peoples. In other words, as long as the stubborn problem of land annexation remains, the existence of the Central Plains dynasty will inevitably lead to the rise of nomadic peoples, not because of its strength, but because of its inevitable decline.
 
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I do not think that the strength of the Central Plains Empire will lead to the strength of the nomadic peoples. On the contrary, the more the Central Plains dynasty declines, the stronger the nomadic peoples will be. If the main reason for the unification of the Xiongnu was to defend against the powerful Central Plains dynasty, why didn't they unify when the princes and the King of Zhou were expanding against the Xiongnu, but instead formed an alliance and forced the princes to build the Great Wall after these expansions stopped? If the Xiongnu's strength was really due to the strength of the Central Plains dynasty, then they shouldn't have weakened rapidly after Qin unified China. From history, we can see that every time the nomadic peoples established a powerful regime, the Central Plains Empire declined due to its inherent land annexation conflicts and then overthrown by peasant uprisings. Afterwards, the nomadic peoples were either hit hard by the new and powerful empire, or took advantage of China's internal divisions to establish new dynasties in China like the Yuan and Qing dynasties. The Central Plains dynasties have always deliberately restricted the power of nomadic peoples. When the Central Plains dynasties were strong, the nomadic peoples could only roam on the barren and cold grasslands, with a sparse population and relying on trade with the Central Plains for necessities of life. The Central Plains dynasties usually deliberately restricted trade with nomadic peoples, on the one hand to obtain huge profits through official monopoly of trade, and on the other hand to restrict the nomadic peoples' exchanges with the border areas and reduce rebellion.As a result, nomadic peoples often had to invade and plunder border areas, which in turn strengthened the border areas' dependence on the central government because they had to seek shelter. At the end of the dynasty, a large number of peasant lost their land and became displaced. To them, the Central Plains was more like hell than the grasslands. A large number of Han people fled to the grasslands, the common feature between them and the nomadic peoples was that they hated the tyrannical and brutal Central Plains dynasties, which led to the fact that many nomadic peoples were actually descendants of the Han people. A survey shows that Genghis Khan has royal genes from the Han Dynasty. The immigration of the Han people not only increased the population of the grasslands, but also brought advanced technology and the idea of great unification, which strengthened the power of the nomadic peoples. In other words, as long as the stubborn problem of land annexation remains, the existence of the Central Plains dynasty will inevitably lead to the rise of nomadic peoples, not because of its strength, but because of its inevitable decline.
First of all, Qing was not a nomad dynasty. The Jurchens are not a steppe people. I digress.

Zhou kings and princes did not contend with the steppe peoples. Before the Han, there wasn't much interaction in their typical roles. It was the success of the Qin at unifying china and fully enclosing parts of the steppe off(and being able to limit trade heading north) with early walls that sent shockwaves through the steppe.

This is what 'weakened" them at first but it quickly spured the steppes towards unification in order to restore access to pastureland and markets, so that by the time Liu Bang finally settles things in China suddenly theres a massive nomadic empire on the dynasties' doorstep.
 
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Zhou kings and princes did not contend with the steppe peoples. Before the Han, there wasn't much interaction in their typical roles. It was the success of the Qin at unifying china and fully enclosing parts of the steppe off(and being able to limit trade heading north) with early walls that sent shockwaves through the steppe.
For example, Jin and Yan had been expanding against the northern barbarians. Yan even lost contact with the Central Plains for a period of time and almost completely merged into the barbarians. Perhaps these were not nomadic peoples, because they were usually agricultural people before the Central Plains countries invaded their land. They didn't volunteer to be nomads.
This is what 'weakened" them at first but it quickly spured the steppes towards unification in order to restore access to pastureland and markets, so that by the time Liu Bang finally settles things in China suddenly theres a massive nomadic empire on the dynasties' doorstep.
Yes, the Huns rose again soon after being defeated by Qin, but it isbecause the contradictions accumulated within the Qin Empire were very serious, Qin Empire perished after only 14 years. Jerry H. Bentley pointed out that this period of Chinese instability was a time of prosperity for the Xiongnu, who adopted many Han agriculture techniques such as slaves for heavy labor and lived in Han-style homes. After the Han Dynasty unified China, the Xiongnu first maintained a strong power, but then were completely defeated by the powerful Han Empire, never to recover, and were finally wiped out from history by Cao Cao.
 
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This is quite an enjoyable read. In particular what would you think is essential to add to EU5 based on the writing?
not op and i haven't thought about it super seriously until a brief moment just now, but i think eu5 needs to have more dramatic modifiers for provinces/locations based on their geography. i looked back at the terrain Tinto Talks and whilst there are modifiers for food production, army movement, pop size, there aren't modifiers for things like control, and i think there really need to be. it should be incredibly difficult to exert control across a mountain range, as evidenced by OP's research (as well as just cursory knowledge about regional powers and, for instance, the carpathian mountains, or the natural divide between sweden and norway, or the caucasus mountains, or the andes, etc etc, the list is endless). similarly it should be difficult to propagate control through jungle, across desert, and other harsh topographies. i don't know if the current modifiers of food production and road building time are enough to simulate that.

and perhaps there could be tag-specific advances that would mitigate it for countries that are based in those regions. so tibetan tags might have advances that reduce the control penalties in mountains, or indochinese tags would have advances that reduce the penalties for jungle, etc.

but i think there needs to be some effort by the game to recreate the reasons why empires, for a very long time, struggled to expand into, or maintain provinces in, geographically difficult regions
 
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terrain Tinto Talks and whilst there are modifiers for food production, army movement, pop size, there aren't modifiers for things like control
That's a good catch but I think on the basis of balance the devs weren't change that too much, as long as they don't see serious call for adding a new modifier in terrains, or before they see a great mod that implements this well.
 
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To them, the Central Plains was more like hell than the grasslands. A large number of Han people fled to the grasslands, the common feature between them and the nomadic peoples was that they hated the tyrannical and brutal Central Plains dynasties, which led to the fact that many nomadic peoples were actually descendants of the Han people. A survey shows that Genghis Khan has royal genes from the Han Dynasty. The immigration of the Han people not only increased the population of the grasslands, but also brought advanced technology and the idea of great unification, which strengthened the power of the nomadic peoples. In other words, as long as the stubborn problem of land annexation remains, the existence of the Central Plains dynasty will inevitably lead to the rise of nomadic peoples, not because of its strength, but because of its inevitable decline.

Is there any survey or paper about

1. fact that many nomadic peoples were actually descendants of the Han people

2. A survey shows that Genghis Khan has royal genes from the Han Dynasty.
 
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