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Spruce said:
was is holding us to give it independent status, as it was in practice :cool:
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If a province has ruler then it is playable and will do its own thing, however by tieing it to liege it pays scrutage to the province's liege and the liege can raise troops from the province (at a price of diminised loyalty). So if make Imperial Flanders being ruled by a member of the same family but tied to the Duchy of Lower Lorriane. Then we get the historical situation and their is a chance that one branch of the family will inherit the lot.
 
King said:
If a province has ruler then it is playable and will do its own thing, however by tieing it to liege it pays scrutage to the province's liege and the liege can raise troops from the province (at a price of diminised loyalty). So if make Imperial Flanders being ruled by a member of the same family but tied to the Duchy of Lower Lorriane. Then we get the historical situation and their is a chance that one branch of the family will inherit the lot.
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hm, don't understand completely,

but my point was that in practice they were independent. There have been numerous punishment expeditions conducted against Flanders which all failed.

By making them independent, they can have vassals from both kingdoms?

another solution - don't know if this is ok - is to give Baldwin's son which was count of Hainaut - another HRE fief - all the Emperial loans,

in this situation when his father dies, Flanders can be united - or not off course depends on the AI or setup,
 
King said:
If a province has ruler then it is playable and will do its own thing, however by tieing it to liege it pays scrutage to the province's liege and the liege can raise troops from the province (at a price of diminised loyalty). So if make Imperial Flanders being ruled by a member of the same family but tied to the Duchy of Lower Lorriane. Then we get the historical situation and their is a chance that one branch of the family will inherit the lot.
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the setup is important to start from. It seems Baldwin V had 3 children Baldwin VI (oldest son), Robert De Vries (youngest son) and Mathilde. Rpbert killed Baldwin VI only in 1070 - so the strife was there,

- Baldwin VI was count of Hainaut (HRE prov) when CK starts,
- when Baldwin V died, his oldest son Baldwin VI became the successor and Robert de Vries (the youngest son) got the imperial fiefs to govern,

now questionmark is what imperial fiefs went to Robert. Hainaut was also HRE, but was already Baldwin VI's demesne. It seems Robert could govern Gent and Zeeland, making him a duke ...

so shouldn't Flanders be considered a kingdom ruled by Baldwin V with the vassal Boulogne, Guines, Artois (also ok to use as demesne) and the count of Hainaut Baldwin VI governing Hainaut and duke Robert De Vries governing Gent and Zeeland,

it can also be seen as an independent Duchy where Baldwin VI is count of Hainaut, Robert de Vries is count of Gent and Zeeland is governed by another count - random name

?
 
feel free to give your opinion on the 1066 situation so we can agree on the subject, because it's time to move ahead and go to the next scenario, :)
 
We have a number of problems here. First is Flanders cannot be a Kingdom. The Kingdoms in the game (at current patch who knows what the future might bring) are hardcoded, and Flanders is nto one of them. Secondly Flanders cannot have vassals from both Kingdoms. Either Flanders is part of France and all it's vassasls are, two Flanders is part of Germany and all it's vassals are, or Flanders is a vassal of niether and so too are all it's vassals. Three by setting up Flanders as not part of it's lieges royal demise then it is independant, it can wages it's own wars, gain it's own inheritances, even wage war on its liege. So we can give you all you want and still have the historical France HRE boundary (i.e. through the low countries) by having Flanders with it's own Duke. as part of France, and have Imperial Flanders being held by the same Famaly. The CK system cannot model the complexities of someone holding some provinces form one liege and others from an other. The Flemish Dukes may well of been very independant but they still did acknowledge nominal athority from one throne or the other.
 
so you mean a Flemish duchy and an imperial Flanders? With the Flemish duchy being vassal to the French crown and imperial Flanders vassal to the HRE? And both rulers being from the same family?

am I understanding you right?
 
Spruce said:
so you mean a Flemish duchy and an imperial Flanders? With the Flemish duchy being vassal to the French crown and imperial Flanders vassal to the HRE? And both rulers being from the same family?

am I understanding you right?
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Exactly. There is a powerful Duchy in Northern France (including vassals roughly 5 provinces). Then there are a collection of Imperial provinces that members of the family also hold.
 
so in that view Baldwin V should rule Duchy Flanders (Ypres and Brugge), he should have the counts of Boulogne, Artois and Guines as vassals,

Baldwin VI - the oldest son should rule the county of Hainaut and be of the same dynasty having a demesne of 3 = Hainaut - Gent and Zeeland,

the dynastie of Flanders should begin their rule with Gravelkind as both Baldwin VI and Robert De Vries were granted titles after Baldwin V died,

agreed?

I would choose to give both Gent, Zeeland and Hainaut to Baldwin VI, I don't think there's anything that can be hold against?

:)
 
Now we are getting a head of ourselves here. We already have perfectly good counts in Gent (the Counts of Aalst who where not absorbed by Flanders till 1166). In addition we also have the counts of Holland who did hold sections of Zeeland as well. Zeeland is a bloody big province.
 
King said:
Now we are getting a head of ourselves here. We already have perfectly good counts in Gent (the Counts of Aalst who where not absorbed by Flanders till 1166). In addition we also have the counts of Holland who did hold sections of Zeeland as well. Zeeland is a bloody big province.
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As I stated earlier Gent, or the area of Aalst was part of imperial Flanders in 1066 - the deal had been concluded by Baldwin V (with the German emperor). And included the area of Aalst and the region between Dender and Schelde. It was the old county of Ename,

Imperial Flanders was added - as you say in the 12'th century - as a personal demesne to the Flemish counts. Before that it was a loan to Flanders - but an Imperial one off course,

oh and to put the cherry on the pie the province of Gent should then have the COA of the city of ename - which I stumbled upon a week ago. The COA of Gent - one of the historical "3 members" of Flanders is in fact not correct ;)

as for Zeeland I know the situation is a bit half/half. But as they controlled up to North Beveland and the "Quatre Metiers (= this means the 4 cities at the banks of the Schelde" and Zeeuws Vlaanderen (left of the "Quatre metiers" they had more then half of the province. So they had somewhat of 60% of the property (agreed by the German king)...

basically my point is that the Flemish counts had emperial Flanders and Zeeland as an official loan from the German king before the game starts. That's a strong argument. And Hainaut was ruled by his son,
 
No, I don't think we are giving both Zeeland and Imperial Flanders to Baldwin VI for the purpose of manufacturing the strongest possible Flanders at Baldwin VI inheritence. AFAIK the Imperial Flanders was given to the other son Robert the Fries upon his marriage with the mother of the count of Holland in 1063. Robert then became regent of Dirk count of Holland.

About Zeeland, the choice is between giving the Flanders dynasty 20% more territory or allow the excistance of the count of Holland, I would choose for the latter as they both owned about half of the province.

So in that view Baldwin V should rule Duchy Flanders (Ypres and Brugge), he should have the counts of Boulogne, Artois and Guines as vassals,

Baldwin VI - the oldest son should rule the county of Hainaut and be of the same dynasty (that was a bug).

Robert de Fries - the younger son should rule Gent and be regent in Zeeland. (although I am not sure everyone is agreed about this in the beta team)
 
hehe...Spruce is now getting a good taste of what the beta teams have been doing for months: trying to figure out how the heck to shoehorn unusual historical situations into the framework allowed by the game engine. Fun, isn't it? :p
 
MrT said:
hehe...Spruce is now getting a good taste of what the beta teams have been doing for months: trying to figure out how the heck to shoehorn unusual historical situations into the framework allowed by the game engine. Fun, isn't it? :p
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I just can't get enough! ;)

about Ename

http://www.ename974.org/Eng/pagina/ename_historisch.html

speaking afterwards - that's always easy - I guess the province of Gent in CK could have been called Ename
 
magdat said:
No, I don't think we are giving both Zeeland and Imperial Flanders to Baldwin VI for the purpose of manufacturing the strongest possible Flanders at Baldwin VI inheritence. AFAIK the Imperial Flanders was given to the other son Robert the Fries upon his marriage with the mother of the count of Holland in 1063. Robert then became regent of Dirk count of Holland.

About Zeeland, the choice is between giving the Flanders dynasty 20% more territory or allow the excistance of the count of Holland, I would choose for the latter as they both owned about half of the province.

So in that view Baldwin V should rule Duchy Flanders (Ypres and Brugge), he should have the counts of Boulogne, Artois and Guines as vassals,

Baldwin VI - the oldest son should rule the county of Hainaut and be of the same dynasty (that was a bug).

Robert de Fries - the younger son should rule Gent and be regent in Zeeland. (although I am not sure everyone is agreed about this in the beta team)
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I agree about Robert, you can see clearly see in the following link that Robert - when he got married in 1063 got the title to the imperial fiefs,

http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/F/FL/FLANDERS.htm

however, about Zeeland the site is very clear, Zeeland was ruled by the Flemish dynasty - most presumeably by Robert in 1066 (I don't know what title you've got to give to Robert),

I would keep Baldwin VI as the count of Hainaut, but Robert should get the other imperial fiefs,

so indeed Robert and Baldwin went into a clash about the situation resulting in Baldwin being killed in the aftermath, but that's after 1066,

altough a nice discussion, can we agree on this?

and please give Baldwin V some really good traits, as far as I can see he seems to me a midas touched.

His son Baldwin VI should be a flamboyant schemer - very difficult child and rebellious... got better when he grew up ... but,

Robert de Fries should be a knowledgeable tactician,

Mathilde, the sister - don't know really - nothing special imho,

from now on I'll stop giving input on the 1066 Flanders - it's not my call for sure to take the decisions, so I'll go to the next scenario setup ;)
 
Well as I see it Robert should have half of Zeeland and half of Gent. The answer for me is to him all of Zeeland
 
Flanders 1187 scenario =

march 7 1167 = Floris III from Holland is forced to sign a humiliating treaty in Brugge with Flanders. It ends the conflict over the rulership in Zeeland. Floris III has to give Flanders half of the yearly revenues from Zeeland. In general the treaty is humiliating for Holland that de facto becomes a vassal to Flanders,

march 10 1186 = a true black day for Flanders. After years of strife the county of Vermaindois and Amiens go to the French king. Also Artois goes to the French king,

so in the 1187 the Duchy of Flanders should have the following =

Brugge, Gent, Ypres and Guines as a demesne,

perhaps it's best to ad Zeeland as a vassal to Flanders and keep Holland in the HRE,

Filips from the Elzas should rule Flanders in 1186, but has no heirs in 1186 (he died a few years later and the house of Hainaut ruled Flanders,

I'm still looking for children and ties to the house of Hainaut,
 
Filips had a sister, Margaretha van den Elzas and she was married to

count Raoul of Vermaindois (Raoul died in 1165) and married again in 1169 with Baldwin V. Baldwin V was the son of count Baldwin IV (or Baudoin IV) of Hainaut and Alix (daugher of the count of Namurs),

Baldwin V was also know as Baldwin the VIII (in the numbers of Flanders) and succeeded Filips when he died - heirless,

so towards succession the second Flemisch scenario is a nice challenge, because the houses are not the same,

there's only one question open = do you guys see Baldwin of Hainaut and Philips of the Elzas from different houses? Later the house of the hainaut counts was described as the house of Flanders, so you can also name Baldwin V (of Flanders),

is this clear for the community? :)
 
There's a 7-year-old Godefroi de Boullion (id 318) in Brabant at the start of the 1066 scenario. He has no relatives. I think he's a duplicate of id 10072, Geoffroy de Boulogne, son of Count Eustache of Boulogne.
 
the whole story,

when the game starts in 1066 Godfrey III with the beard is duke of Lower Lorraine. He dies at 30/12/1069, the duchy of lower lorraine going to Godfrey IV the Hunchback,

Dirk V count of Holland plots an assassination (febr. 1076) on Godfrey IV the Hunchback, duke of Lower Lorraine (duke from 1069 on),

Godefroi de Bouillion is the son of Eustache de Boulogne and Ida. Ida is the sister of Godefroi the Hunchback.

Godefroi de Boullion becomes marquis of Antwerp in march 1076 and hopes to become duke of Lower Lorraine.

But he only gets the mark of Antwerp and King Heinrich IV promotes his 2 old son Koenraad to duke of Lower Lorraine.

in 1089 emperor Heinrich IV promotes Godefroi de Bouillon to duke of Lower Lorraine as he had helped Heinrich IV against the usurper Rudolf of Swaben, Godefroi succeeds Koenraad as duke of Lower Lorraine, Koenraad is Heinrich IV's son that is crowned king of Germany,

Godefroi de Bouillion was born in 1061 or 1062 so making him 5 or 4 years old when the game starts,

so bottomline is that Godefroi de Boulogne should be 5 years old and have a claim on the title of duke of Lower Lorraine.

so there should be a Godfrey III with the beard, a Godfrey IV the Hunchback and a Godfrey V of Bouillon,

However Godfrey III and IV should be called of the Ardennes (or d'Ardennes). Godfrey V 's house is refered to Bouillion/Boulogne but that can never be the same,

Other sources confirm Eustache - Godfrey V's father to be of the Boulogne house. Later on Godfrey V claims the castles of Bouillon and Verdun,

so history knows him as Godfrey (V) of Bouillion,

but when the game starts there should also be Godfrey III and Godfrey IV and they are clearly from the house "of Ardennes" or "d'Ardennes",

http://www.friesian.com/lorraine.htm#upper

to be honoust, I didn't check with the current set up - :D :eek:o
 
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