Form Belgium in Rule Brittania

[Aurelio123]

Since lowlands are gonna be improved in 1.25 why not add option to form Belgium while at it? Lowlands have always been intreasting location in MP matches.Since none of the players would ever support you its best for 2 players to play in lowlands so they can beat burgundy alone(Holland and Brabant).After beating burgundy up with your ally holland gets to form netherlands,but brabant? Yeah they don't get to do anything unless they seek to take holland for themselfs.
Belgium should be formable the same way as netherlands,5-7 province requirement in southern lowlands.Hell there is even a mod that allows it so why not allow it in vanila game.Why am i not using that mod? Becose everyone uses vanila in MP.
You can form nations like hannover,westplhalia,egypt so whats wrong with forming belgium? Almost all nations in the game should have this so you have a goal when playing a nation. *cough* *0 formable nations in southern germany.*
If this is added maybe playing nations like flanders should be worth it instead of being compleatly unbalanced and always being one sided when it comes to playing in lowlands.
Becose right now,it's either holland or brabant,if you pick liege/flanders you are just making it harder for yourself becose the only thing you can do is expand north to form netherlands.

 

[SrgChris]

This expansion should be called Rule Belgium, as far as I'm concerned @DDRJake

 

[AlexandruRadu]

While I don't get what Belgium would bring to the game that tags like Hainaut and Flanders don't, we already have formables for United Central America, Louisiana and Quebec none of which existed as independent nations during the game's time period, so why not add Belgium to that list. Its not like that much would need to be done for it anyway, the only work would be in making some national ideas for it.

 

[AirikrStrife]

While I don't get what Belgium would bring to the game that tags like Hainaut and Flanders don't, we already have formables for United Central America, Louisiana and Quebec none of which existed as independent nations during the game's time period, so why not add Belgium to that list. Its not like that would need to be done for it anyway, the only work would be in making some national ideas for it.

They're trying to cover formables for colonial regions after they break free i.e. so breton Louisiana can become just Louisiana

 

[AlexandruRadu]

They're trying to cover formables for colonial regions after they break free i.e. so breton Louisiana can become just Louisiana

How many times have you seen Louisiana, United Central America and Quebec break free though? They either never get independence or get eaten by a blobbing colonial nation or the US, Canada or Mexico. (Which are the only semi consistent former colonial nations to appear.)

 

[AirikrStrife]

How many times have you seen Louisiana, United Central America and Quebec break free though? They either never get independence or get eaten by a blobbing colonial nation or the US, Canada or Mexico. (Which are the only semi consistent former colonial nations to appear.)

Don't remember but they serve a concrete purpose befitting possible events in this timeline. Colonial nations breaking free and forming their own states. They are to an extent needed

Besides PDX generally don't care for people holding previous decisions against them for new content. They have a no one-province-culture policy for some time now and don't care about arguments pointing to Maltese, Galician or Gothic.

 

[AlexandruRadu]

Don't remember but they serve a concrete purpose befitting possible events in this timeline. Colonial nations breaking free and forming their own states. They are to an extent needed

Besides PDX generally don't care for people holding previous decisions against them for new content. They have a no one-province-culture policy for some time now and don't care about arguments pointing to Maltese, Galician or Gothic.

Fair enough I guess, but if Paradox doesn't really care about sticking to previous decisions I don't see why they can't go back and add Belgium. Of all of the changes they could make to the game this one is really minor and I doubt this would change much. Plus it would be interesting to have another formable for the low countries that lent itself to a playstyle different to that of the Netherlands. Maybe it could even could do for Burgundy what Egypt does for the Mamluks, it would give a relatively archaic nation that exists a start of the game the option to reform into a modern nation state if it survives that long.

 

[Corbalte]

Yes, I don't know where the idea of the United Belgian States being a try to unite with the Netherland comes from, as you say, the constitution never said something like that. There was indeed an attempt by Van der Noot to discuss about a unification with the north, but it came as a desperate solution to maintain independence as the Austrians were reconquering the country and defeat was imminent.

 

[Mudalls]

Well... I'm sorry to take this discussion back from the ashes but... I think I've read every piece of forum about this problematic, and I still haven't seen one response from paradox about this (except the ironic response : "Save the fantasy nations for the Random New World" which is maybe a fantastic joke in Britain but rather an insult for me. I suppose I'm a bit touchy about my fantasy nation for whom people were crippled and killed in my neighbourhood, not to mention family).

So, my question is : "Why can't I form Belgium when I'm playing as my home country (Liège) ?"

I mean, I don't see why I can form Quebec, Germany, Italy, Bharat (Where did that come from ? independance in 1950, no nation before that), Scandinavia (What the hell ?), United central america (we should be laughing by now...) but I can't form my own country, that exist since 1830, and the country my ancestors died to protect from barbary. Because yes, there are actual people that died for this country, and british died there too (Flander's fields, ringing any bell ?).

I mean, what is that ? You can form every country on earth but not mine for ideological reason, I suppose ?

It's like saying that UK shouldn't exist because "you know, there is cultural difference between the kingdoms, and the proof is that Scotland want independance". Or the same for Ireland (independance in ... 1922 ! What is it doing in game ?).

I don't get why PDX deny my country's right to exist (I just ask a decision, not an obligation to form, you can even just stop the AI from forming it) in such a great game. I feel belgian, and my ancestor before me were. We are a family from Liège from the XVIth century, and we never were part of France except under Napoléon... Why can I form France but not Belgium ?

I feel like there's a big lack of respect of my identity, for the least, in this. Maybe some haughtiness too and a big lack of empathy for belgian gamers who don't have their nation represented, even though all completely chimeric nations are. How would you feel if your nation didn't get represented because - I think - of ideological reason ? How would you feel if someone gives himself the right to tell you your nations "shouldn't have existed" ? Who are you to say that ?

Can someone (from PDX if possible, or a player that have the response) please takes 5 minutes to explain why isn't my nation represented ?

 

[neondt]

No

 

[Tom D.]

No

Would you like to clarify a bit on your stance, as I'm actually interested to know the reasons behind the decision?

 

[Mudalls]

Would you like to clarify a bit on your stance, as I'm actually interested to know the reasons behind the decision?

I approve.

May you please explain your stance ?

 

[mechanical_Critter]

Can someone (from PDX if possible, or a player that have the response) please takes 5 minutes to explain why isn't my nation represented ?

You have to make an argument for why it should be. All the examples you discarded as ridiculous have all good justification in their own way, even though some of them didn't occur historically.
Also, there is up in this thread a (shaky) argument for a very short lived revolter state. At least it's a fair argument.
Now, compare this to your post:

an insult for me

my fantasy nation for whom people were crippled and killed in my neighbourhood, not to mention family

Why can't I form Belgium when I'm playing as my home country (Liège) ?

the country my ancestors died to protect from barbary

You can form every country on earth but not mine for ideological reason, I suppose ?

I feel belgian, and my ancestor before me were

there's a big lack of respect of my identity

big lack of empathy for belgian gamers

I think you get the point

 

[Groogy]

Because Revolutionary Burgundy uses the Belgian flag and as such it would be impossible for us to resolve this conflict and add a BEL tag. Luckily there are the Victoria and Hearts of Iron franchises where Burgundy have been eliminated prior to the games start so Belgium is perfectly playable.

 

[Bearjuden]

Well now, I ain't Belgian, but that seems like a pretty big cop-out. You're not telling me the flag isn't changeable? I mean no offense, but is that seriously the best excuse you can muster up?

 

[Reman]

Because Revolutionary Burgundy uses the Belgian flag and as such it would be impossible for us to resolve this conflict and add a BEL tag. Luckily there are the Victoria and Hearts of Iron franchises where Burgundy have been eliminated prior to the games start so Belgium is perfectly playable.

Are you serious here, or is this a meme?

If you're serious, I can think of at least half a dozen ways to get around this issue from an implementation standpoint.

 

[Tom D.]

Because Revolutionary Burgundy uses the Belgian flag and as such it would be impossible for us to resolve this conflict and add a BEL tag. Luckily there are the Victoria and Hearts of Iron franchises where Burgundy have been eliminated prior to the games start so Belgium is perfectly playable.

Ok let me rephrase my question: what are your serious reasons to not include Belgium?

 

[Mudalls]

You have to make an argument for why it should be. All the examples you discarded as ridiculous have all good justification in their own way, even though some of them didn't occur historically.
Also, there is up in this thread a (shaky) argument for a very short lived revolter state. At least it's a fair argument.
Now, compare this to your post:

















I think you get the point

Actually, I really do not agree with your "point". You suppose there SHOULD be a rational cold blooded argument for a country to exist. There isn't a rational cold blooded argument for countries to exist.

Belgium was created because for centuries, a people was ruled by foreigners. The twenty-fifth of august 1830, after have been forbidden for years, an opera called "La Muette de Portici" was played in the national theater. This piece of art exalt freedom, freedom that was denied back then.

After this piece, the revolution took place, chasing dutch (netherlanders) out of Belgium, and forbidding the royal family of Netherland to come back in Belgium forever.

So you see, there shouldn't be any rational cold blooded argument for a nation to be created. There wasn't for Belgium at first. They just wanted independance (so were American, when they understood they'll never be considered egal to english).

But, this is not the main point. The main point is that it's very strange that every country in the world can be played or created (even slovakia, was created in 1918... you will say Nitra is playable... but Nitra was completely included in Hungary by the end of the 11th century !). This is a game, an historical one for most part, but a lot of ease with history were taken in order to make it nice for the player to play it. Including formable nations, that weren't form until far far later. So, why not Belgium ? I can assure you, we do not bite.

Because Revolutionary Burgundy uses the Belgian flag and as such it would be impossible for us to resolve this conflict and add a BEL tag. Luckily there are the Victoria and Hearts of Iron franchises where Burgundy have been eliminated prior to the games start so Belgium is perfectly playable.

Oh. Okay. Pretty sad.

You know, the original flag was red, yellow and black ? The constitution actually said this : "La Nation belge adopte les couleurs rouge, jaune et noire." So red first, then yellow and black.
And the first flag was horizontal, not vertical, red on top, then yellow then black.

So if it's your problem, it certainly is a way out.

 

[Canute VII]

No

Inadequate

 

[Mingmung]

No Belgium, please.

We have Flanders, Hainaut and Brabant already.

The Belgian nation was a French elite ruling over Flemish plebiscites with less rights. Because those Frenchies didn't want to be under Dutch control (and Dutch language was forced at school) and they (Flemish and Frenchies) were afraid of the protestant influences.

 

[SibCDC]

No Belgium, please.

We have Flanders, Hainaut and Brabant already.

The Belgian nation was a French elite ruling over Flemish plebiscites with less rights. Because those Frenchies didn't want to be under Dutch control (and Dutch language was forced at school) and they (Flemish and Frenchies) were afraid of the protestant influences.

So because it's a country ruled by French elite, it can't be in EUIV? That's your reasoning behind this? Very poor if you ask me. A lot of countries in history have been ruled by a small elite. If this were a criteria to be excluded from EUIV, then nations like the US, the United Kingdom and Russia shouldn't be formable either. From my point of view, there is no reason to exclude Belgium and a lot of reasons to include it.

Belgium as a nation formed in 1830, but there were historical reasons for its independence. Ever since the Dutch Revolt against the Spanish, the Southern Netherlands (or what we know today as Belgium) has formed a separate identity. In EUIV we see formable nations like Italy and Germany, which as a united political entity were even younger than Belgium. The notion for these political unities and cultural unities existed before their actual political existence, but the same could be said about Belgium.

If you want to exlude Belgium as a formable nation, then in my opinion you'll have to come up with some very good gameplay reasons. Historical reasons are irrelevant because there are enough examples of formable nations already in the game which are completely unrealistic for the timeframe. It's really not that hard to add a formable nation. It's just some lines of code and some graphics that need to be added. As for players who want to try and form Belgium at this stage, I would recommend looking for a mod that adds Belgium as a formable nation. I'm sure it's out there somewhere. It's the closest thing you can get at the moment.