Free Stuff in Events

[MattyG]

Use of Give-aways in Aberration[SIZE]


This thread is to debate the use and abuse of give-aways in events in the game. It doesn’t represent ‘policy’, only my views on this element of event effects. We can’t change the way everyone in EU2 designs their mods, but perhaps we can refine things here in Aberration. Basically, I feel that a lot of give-aways are unjustified, irresponsible and inexcusable. However, I am not going to get anywhere by ranting and I need to be more logical and rational. So, lets look at these kinds of events.


The Contemporary Situation

So, you’re playing a new game, and it’s in the multiplayer environment. So you know that you are going to need to plan your strategy carefully, which means having to understand your event files. If you are like most players, the main things you zoom in on are 1. Civil war and other catastrophes and how to avoid them, and 2. The ‘goodies’ events and how to ensure you get as many as possible.

Goodies events can include many things, such as positive slider shifts, inflation reduction, free cores, cash, taxbase increases, revoltrisk reductions, monarch rating increases, troops, manufacturies, recruitment centres and wharves. Positive events are a common feature of event files and are often well-structured and well-merited. However, I feel this is rarely the case for the last four.

Nevertheless, they’re in there, in every event file for every major country. Not for minors, of course, which is another part of the problem. ‘Goodies’ are so endemic, so assumed, that you simply cannot create an event file without two or three free manufacturies and around 40K free troops. To not give out these would be to hamstring that country compared to its competitors.


Why Free Stuff?

This is a good question and I’m glad that I asked it. Let’s remember who we are when we play the game. We are the ‘grey power’ manipulating the king and other significant decision makers. We run the country. Therefore, events have to represent things outside of our control, right? These can include natural events (disasters) local officials, rebellious peasants, ideas, dynamic individuals who are not part of the government, the church, foreign powers and, of course, times when the monarch gets really feisty or crazy and doesn’t do what we say.

Events that give free stuff must, therefore, represent the dealings, ideas, initiatives and occurrences from these other agents. There are, nonetheless, many events which represent not others agents, but the decisions and abilities of the government/monarch/advisors. Which is really you, the player. Most Goodies events are in reality the things the player should be doing, and an example of event-writing gone wrong.

Let’s use an archetypal goodie event. (Not written in script)

Event: A glorious time!
Trigger: June 12, 1567
Desc: After years of turmoil we are at peace and have a strong leader and the economy is now booming.

Effects:
Cores on four provinces
Stability +3
Infra +1000
Trade +500
Refinery in random province
Goods manu in random province


Now, I realise that flavour in these events is great. The heart swells, the nation has survived and here is the proof positive, the flow of mana (manus?) from heaven. But actually, its mostly bollocks. Not just because its 5000+ ducats in free resources, but because you get them independently and instantly. In effect, the game has done your job for you, and on that basis alone I am irked by these events.

Let’s look at some of the different elements give-aways and how we need to reconsider them.


Manufacturies and other buildings

If the economy is doing well, then it’s doing well, and that is its own reward. A golden age is defined by an extended period of peace and stability and prosperity. If you are having one of those then you can afford to build those manus. And you should. And that’s what your job is. Yours, not the game’s. If you want manus (and you know you do) then plan appropriately, print money, save and build one.

Something that takes such significant strategic decisions out of the player’s hands only lessens the challenge and ultimately unbalances the game.


Surely Not All Free Buildings are Bad?

Okay, okay, okay. Not all. I can think of three broad categories where it makes sense.

1. The efforts of others

The vanilla event where the Swedes have some foreigners arrive in large numbers with weapons-making skills and technology is one event where it is conceptually valid. I am not sure if the history is accurate, but that’s a separate issue for the AGC-EEP to debate. This event represents an effort and skill-base that is outside the government and even the culture, and so can only be represented by an event.

Likewise, you might want to craft an event around a particular individual of brilliance. Who comes to the king with a new invention that needs funding. The first event would represent an investment by the government, which if taking up would later lead to the placement of the manufactury, the success of that genius’ work.

However, they should still cost money, not be free.


2. Being ahead of your time

Great leaders are ahead of their time to some degree. Their personal energy and dynamism typically helps to define a nation’s golden age. With these monarchs, it seems quite justified to grant buildings that could otherwise not be built. Typically, these will be military buildings, the Great Wharves and naval goods for naval countries, the Recruitment Centres and arms production buildings for the larger land countries. Giving these to great early monarchs makes sense, as they cannot yet be legally built.

However, they should still cost money, probably even more than their normal base cost, not be free.

3. Helping the AI keep up

The ai sucks at building manufacturies etc. Every nation should have within its event files the following events.

trigger = {
ai = yes
stability = 2
infra = 3
size = 7
}
random = no
country = ZXR
name = “I am hopeless and need help building a manufactury”
date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1490 }
offset = 3000
deathdate = { day = 1 month = december year = 1600 }

action_a = {
name = “This should help”
command = { type = gainbuilding which = -1 value = refinery }
}

And so forth, ensuring that each ai country would get manufacturies based on certain size and stability minimums, sliders appropriate to the building, the right tech scores and within specific dates. Alternatively, these events could be random, and for the ai only.


Troops

Free troops is another wacky one. Where did they come from? Who bought those uniforms for them? Who supplied those weapons? Who trained them up to the standard of our existing units?

Don’t give away free troops, or rarely. These events are always tied to the country being at war, or in internal turmoil, or religious crusade etc. If we are talking about people rallying to a cause then this is represented through the rarely-used command to increase MP. (The increase is once-off, not permanent.) If people are rallying, then they are offering you their services (MP, the availability of men for the army). But they don’t come equipped and trained and you still have to pay for them to be so readied.

I can see the exception for this in cultures where quality is very very low, and where tech is very very low. So, for a country like Ukraine in the first 100 years, OK.

Otherwise, no free guns. Give the player the (temporarily) increased MP and let them pay for the troops as they should.


Cores


Arrrrrrgggggg. A core/shield represents your country’s legitimate claim on a province. Legitimate here meaning that other countries in your region acknowledge your prior ownership or rights, or understand that it is of dire strategic significance to you. A core is NOT just something you might like to own. And other countries are very very very reluctant to accept that their neighbours have a legitimate claim on something. The abusive give-away of cores in EU2 generally and Aberration specifically really need to be reconsidered.

Apart from the colonial claim events, I can see few instances where a nation could receive cores beyond its starting allotment. But here are a few.

Inheritances: That’s the main one. Fair enough.

Imperial growth: Sometimes. The vanilla EU2 gives Russia all these core it shouldn’t have, just because it got big historically. It should grant them later, once they have conquered them, and once other countries have grundgingly accepted the Russians are there to stay. They should be retroactive, not pro-active.

Otherwise, don’t give out cores. It doesn’t mean you can’t capture provinces and own them for the whole game. But it DOES mean that your BB for being aggressive is much less, something that we don’t want to encourage, surely.


Tech Increases

These are a really good way of expressing the benefits of reform, of energetic individuals and of the influence of neighbouring countries. However, note that they should not be given out because a monarch is good, as in the event above. The monarch is already contributing hugely to tech increases through their MIL and ADM scores.


Economic Boons

Very supportive of these. Increases to province tax bases, inflation reduction (in very small amounts) and even gifts of cash all seem justifiable.


Merchants, Colonists and Diplomats

Another underused category. If you have a quality monarch or a great moment in history, these things effect the whole culture and the energy of the people. Reflect this in the ability of that nation to do more. Have an economic restructuring event? +6 merchants seems a natural consequence, as your people are hopeful in the economy and become more entrepreneurial. Have a repression event?


Domestic Policy Sliders

A tough category. These must be the mainstay of events, as they represent the national profile. However, they can still be handed out with gay abandon. Remember that we can have a self-initiated change once every ten years. Some events through around slider changes of 8 – 10, a hundred years worth of social change. This is understandable in periods of significant social unrest, as with civil wars or religious strife, but the consequences will always include high RR and revolts, with all the problems they create.

Modesty, in all things. Keep DP slider changes to 4 points maximum.


In wrapping up, let’s have a look at a classic Goodies event from Aberration. I love the Byzantium file, but it has mistakes and this is one. Not the feel of the event so much as how it is executed.

################################
# Michael Doukas period events
################################

event = {
id = 201936
trigger = {Great triggering, well done }
name = "Direction of the Empire"
desc = "Even with the recent unrest and troubles, the Empire is still very powerful. Now when Michael Doukas has brought stability and order, the direction of Empire's glorious destiny has to be decided on."
style = 1
date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1647 }
offset = 30
deathdate = { day = 1 month = january year = 1659 }

action_a = {
name = "Local Supremacy"
command = { type = addcore which = 318 } # Moldova
command = { type = addcore which = 319 } # Bujak
command = { type = addcore which = 322 } # Wallachia
command = { type = addcore which = 469 } # Sochi
command = { type = addcore which = 470 } # Georgia
command = { type = addcore which = 472 } # Armenia
command = { type = addcore which = 473 } # Kurdistan
command = { type = addcore which = 474 } # Sivas
command = { type = addcore which = 393 } # Napoli
command = { type = addcore which = 394 } # Apulia
command = { type = addcore which = 359 } # Hellas
command = { type = domestic which = land value = 2 }
command = { type = domestic which = offensive value = 2 }
command = { type = domestic which = quality value = 2 }
command = { type = relation which = HUN value = -200 }
command = { type = relation which = GEO value = -200 }
command = { type = relation which = UKR value = -200 }
command = { type = gainbuilding which = 357 value = barrack }
command = { type = gainmanufactory which = -1 value = weapons }
command = { type = gainmanufactory which = -1 value = weapons }
}
action_b = {
name = "Recreation of the Empire"
command = { type = addcore which = 491 } # Lebanon
command = { type = addcore which = 492 } # Samaria
command = { type = addcore which = 493 } # Judea
command = { type = addcore which = 494 } # Sinai
command = { type = addcore which = 744 } # Alexandria
command = { type = addcore which = 472 } # Armenia
command = { type = addcore which = 473 } # Kurdistan
command = { type = addcore which = 474 } # Sivas
command = { type = addcore which = 393 } # Napoli
command = { type = addcore which = 394 } # Apulia
command = { type = addcore which = 359 } # Hellas
command = { type = domestic which = offensive value = 2 }
command = { type = domestic which = quality value = 2 }
command = { type = relation which = JER value = -200 }
command = { type = relation which = MAM value = -200 }
command = { type = relation which = EGY value = -200 }
command = { type = relation which = CAL value = -200 }
command = { type = gainbuilding which = 357 value = barrack }
command = { type = gainmanufactory which = -1 value = weapons }
command = { type = gainmanufactory which = -1 value = navalequipment }
}
action_c = {
name = "Mastery of Mediterranean"
command = { type = addcore which = 819 } # Malta
command = { type = addcore which = 397 } # Sardinia
command = { type = addcore which = 398 } # Corsica
command = { type = addcore which = 821 } # Baleares
command = { type = addcore which = 445 } # Gibraltar
command = { type = addcore which = 732 } # Tangiers
command = { type = addcore which = 739 } # Tunisia
command = { type = addcore which = 472 } # Armenia
command = { type = addcore which = 473 } # Kurdistan
command = { type = addcore which = 474 } # Sivas
command = { type = addcore which = 393 } # Napoli
command = { type = addcore which = 394 } # Apulia
command = { type = addcore which = 359 } # Hellas
command = { type = domestic which = land value = -2 }
command = { type = domestic which = offensive value = 2 }
command = { type = domestic which = quality value = 2 }
command = { type = relation which = GEN value = -200 }
command = { type = relation which = SIC value = -200 }
command = { type = relation which = GRA value = -200 }
command = { type = gainbuilding which = 357 value = shipyard }
command = { type = gainmanufactory which = -1 value = navalequipment }
command = { type = gainmanufactory which = -1 value = navalequipment }
}
}


So, there’s a lot on offer here. A lot of cores, especially. The Recreation of the Empire offers some cores which might be justifiable, but mostly these give-aways are absolutely gratuitous nonsense. The Meditterranean ones are off the scale. What, you get these cores because you’d like to own those places? This is not how it works. If you want the ai Byzantium to go after these locations, then for each option have the command

Command = { type = ai = byzantium_empire2.ai }

And in this new file include their probable owners as enemies. Then, should they be conquered, include an event for the ai that changes the ai file once more.

All these free manufacturies? Maybe, and maybe not. Perhaps one of either the shipyard/naval equipment combo or barrack/weapons combo. But NOT for free.

Relations, OK, of you really think that Michael Doukas wants to indicate his aggressive intentions. But at least give an Action_D to have a peaceful reign.

If I were re-writing this event the actions might look like this.


action_a = {
name = "Local Supremacy"
command = { type = casusbelli which = HUN value = 120 }
command = { type = casusbelli which = UKR value = 120 }
command = { type = casusbelli which = GEO value = 120 }

command = { type = casusbelli which = STE value = 120 }
command = { type = MIL which = 1 value = 120 }
command = { type = ADM which = -1 value = 120 }
command = { type = domestic which = land value = 1 }
command = { type = domestic which = offensive value = 1 }
command = { type = domestic which = quality value = 1 }
command = { type = addcore which = 359 } # Hellas
command = { type = relation which = HUN value = -200 }
command = { type = relation which = GEO value = -200 }
command = { type = relation which = UKR value = -200 }
command = { type = relation which = STE value = -200 }
command = { type = gainbuilding which = 357 value = barrack }
command = { type = gainmanufactory which = -1 value = weapons }
command = { type = cash value = -1000 }
}

action_b = {
name = "Recreation of the Empire"
command = { type = addcore which = 359 } # Hellas
command = { type = casusbelli which = KOJ value = 120 }
command = { type = casusbelli which = MAM value = 120 }
command = { type = casusbelli which = EGY value = 120 }
command = { type = casusbelli which = CAL value = 120 }
command = { type = MIL which = 1 value = 120 }
command = { type = ADM which = -1 value = 120 }
command = { type = domestic which = land value = 1 }
command = { type = domestic which = offensive value = 1 }
command = { type = domestic which = quality value = 1 }
command = { type = relation which = KOJ value = -200 }
command = { type = relation which = MAM value = -200 }
command = { type = relation which = EGY value = -200 }
command = { type = relation which = CAL value = -200 }
command = { type = gainbuilding which = 357 value = barrack }
command = { type = gainmanufactory which = -1 value = weapons }
command = { type = cash value = -1000 }
command = { type = ai which = byzantium_empire.ai }

action_c = {
name = "Mastery of Mediterranean"
command = { type = MIL which = 1 value = 120 }
command = { type = ADM which = -1 value = 120 }
command = { type = addcore which = 359 } # Hellas
command = { type = domestic which = land value = -2 }
command = { type = domestic which = offensive value = 1 }
command = { type = domestic which = quality value = 1 }
command = { type = relation which = GEN value = -200 }
command = { type = relation which = SIC value = -200 }
command = { type = relation which = GRA value = -200 }
command = { type = casusbelli which = GEN value = -120 }
command = { type = casusbelli which = SIC value = -120 }
command = { type = casusbelli which = GRA value = -120 }
command = { type = gainbuilding which = 357 value = shipyard }
command = { type = gainmanufactory which = -1 value = navalequipment }
command = { type = cash value = -1000 }
command = { type = ai which = byzantium_med.ai }
}
}

action_d = {
name = “After years of turmoil, we shall have peace”
command = { type = domestic which = centralization value = 1 }
command = { type = inflation value = -3 }
command = { type = ADM which = 1 value = 120 }
command = { type = MIL which = -1 value = 120 }
command = { type = merchants value = 6 }
command = { type = diplomats value = 3 }
command = { type = ai which = byzantium_peace.ai }
command = { type = provincetax which = -1 value = 1 }
command = { type = provincetax which = -1 value = 1 }
command = { type = provincetax which = -1 value = 1 }
command = { type = provincetax which = -1 value = 1 }
command = { type = relations which = UKR value = 50 }
command = { type = relations which = HUN value = 50 }
command = { type = relations which = GEO value = 50 }
command = { type = relations which = STE value = 50 }
command = { type = relations which = CAL value = 50 }
command = { type = relations which = GEN value = 50 }
command = { type = relations which = SER value = 50 }
command = { type = relations which = WAL value = 50 }

 

[Rythin]

Imperial growth: Sometimes. The vanilla EU2 gives Russia all these core it shouldn’t have, just because it got big historically. It should grant them later, once they have conquered them, and once other countries have grundgingly accepted the Russians are there to stay. They should be retroactive, not pro-active.

Hmm... okay, but notice that AI would normaly have never ever conquer those provs if it hadn't been granted the cores on it. Therefore I propose two versions of such events. The first one, designed for AI would give free cores on provinces it conquered historically (or, in Abbie's case, we want it to conquer) and the second one, for a player, that would give the cores only after conquering them in a normal way.

 

[tombom]

I'm not sure about your attitude to this. For example, I feel core-giving is very important and just restricting core-giving to once in a blue moon just doesn't seem to work.

I can't explain it properly, but it just feels wrong. Maybe it's just being exposed to the current attitude to long. Still, you and Incompotent are the leaders now, and whatever you feel is best.

 

[MattyG]

Hmm... okay, but notice that AI would normaly have never ever conquer those provs if it hadn't been granted the cores on it. Therefore I propose two versions of such events. The first one, designed for AI would give free cores on provinces it conquered historically (or, in Abbie's case, we want it to conquer) and the second one, for a player, that would give the cores only after conquering them in a normal way.

Possibly, but as IDLF points out in his ai bible, there is actually no hard evidence to suggest that ai countries go for cores. They usually get them in wars because the losing defender offers cores to them ahead of other provinces, but this is not the same theing as those triggering that nation and those provinces as targets.

However, perhaps to be careful we do a separate ai event which does grant them cores.

 

[MattyG]

I'm not sure about your attitude to this. For example, I feel core-giving is very important and just restricting core-giving to once in a blue moon just doesn't seem to work.

I can't explain it properly, but it just feels wrong. Maybe it's just being exposed to the current attitude to long. Still, you and Incompotent are the leaders now, and whatever you feel is best.

I know the Cores issue is a pretty sensitive one for some players. I honestly feel that you have nailed it when you suggest that maybe its because its what you are used to. I also think its a feeling thing more than a functional thing. Nothing stops you from conquering whatever you like (except, um, your opponents ). Players like the roleplaying aspect of having been granted cores. But in functional terms, I actually think it does more harm than good.

Incompetent and I may be 'in charge' but this game has to be for the community. I would not go against strong community feeling on this issue, despite my personal preference.

 

[Rythin]

MattyG,
Well, maybe IDLF is right, but still I think that giving the AI a constant CB is very powerful tool.

 

[MattyG]

MattyG,
Well, maybe IDLF is right, but still I think that giving the AI a constant CB is very powerful tool.

You are absolutely right that there is value in them getting less BB as a result of DoW and capture of provinces, and we know how bad the ai is with BB.

 

[Incompetent]

Well, there's loads to talk about here. I'll just make a few points now:

Granting cores: Cores have little effect on AI behaviour, so this is principally a player issue.

If we only give cores on provinces the player already owns, a player will pay 1 or 2 BB per province for taking areas they have a good reason to expand into, and 1 or 2 BB for areas they don't. The result is that players will simply follow the money, and (in SP at least) focus on raiding the world's gold mines and COTs, without any regard to historical motivation. Even if players adopt a local focus (eg for military reasons), their direction of expansion will be based on wealth-per-province, because of the way BB works. For example, if the Caliphate gets an event in which it can opt to help the Turks but gets no shields, the player will most likely say 'screw this' and instead try to diploannex Egypt, because Egypt's provinces are far more valuable than the Turkish ones. An even more extreme example of this is for the TO, where the player will flat out refuse to go for Russia, and instead start picking apart the HRE, because there's such a huge difference in wealth. The Russian crusade is barely worth it even with the shields. Is it really fair for the TO to suffer the same BB for taking Nizhny Novgorod as for taking Berlin?

Accordingly, in some cases I think it is reasonable to gives cores for somewhat dodgy claims (the key here is that the country does have claims, but they're shaky, rather than having no excuse for its behaviour). We stop them being giveaways by giving out some BB along with the cores, but at least now the player has some incentive to go with the storyline. In some cases (particularly Jerusalem) I'm actually in favour of 'war cores' where the country LOSES the core as soon as it takes the province - Jerusalem's expansion wouldn't cause any tears to be shed in Europe, but it certainly wouldn't be accepted by the locals.

Troops:
Yes, maybe we do give out troops a bit too freely. But there are some circumstances in which we really do need to give them out:

1) If the event throws the country straight into a war (which admittedly shouldn't happen that often) or the country has been plunged into war in circumstances beyond its control and needs troops rapidly to save it from destruction (particularly to help the AI here).

2) The AI needs a lot of help in getting a sufficiently strong navy to transport its troops around. Some AI-only events for the major naval powers might be called for.

In both cases, though, they shouldn't be a complete freebie - in general the country should lose a sensible amount of cash, sometimes in excess of the market price of what they're getting to reflect the costs of rushing people/ships out to war.


Free Manus for the AI: Possible but dangerous, as players can steal them. Unless we can justify the presence of a given manufactory, I don't think we should give it. Instead, we can give the AI free tech investment and cash - if the AI has lots of cash, it may even build its own manufactories!

Here's one idea for an 'AI help' event; players might like it, because it doesn't actually give the AI very much, just forcibly shifts their priorities:

+XXXX to trade, +XXXX to infra, +cash, and MINUS land and naval investment to compensate (particularly land, the AI puts far too much into this)

Enough of these would effectively cause the AI to spend on tech more like a player, keeping them competitive for longer. It would also give them ready cash, which is very hard to come by as an AI becuase of its attitude to minting.

 

[Trin Tragula]

Generally agree (though I think one should remember the troop recruiting effects of cores as well as the diplomatic ones).
But the giving out of free soldiers should imho be quite liberal at times. Private persons showing up with their own hosts is actually a rather common thing in real history up untill the 18th century or so (take wallenstein for instance, who repeatedly offers to come up with an army basicly for free and then does so when the offer is accepted).

 

[MattyG]

Generally agree (though I think one should remember the troop recruiting effects of cores as well as the diplomatic ones).
But the giving out of free soldiers should imho be quite liberal at times. Private persons showing up with their own hosts is actually a rather common thing in real history up untill the 18th century or so (take wallenstein for instance, who repeatedly offers to come up with an army basicly for free and then does so when the offer is accepted).

While my knowledge of the period might best be described as loose or shakey, and I ackowledge that troops were often (and in some cultures almost exclusively) provided by others (ie not the king) we also need to remember that ducats in this game are an abstraction. There is always a cost for everything. In the feudal system by the late middle ages, lords either provided troops to the king or money in kind (scutage) with the latter becomming more and more common towards the 1400s. If there is a private person wealthy enough to find and fund an army you can guarentee there's a price attached somewhere down the line in land, tax concessions, trade priviledges, what have you. With the result being an eventual cost to the king's income. So, with the limited resources available to us in event scripting, it becomes essential to charge (and maybe charge heavily) for sudden troops. I suppose that { provincetax which = -1 value = -1 } could be an alternative form of payment to reflect the king granting away land or revenue rights to someone.

 

[MattyG]

Well, there's loads to talk about here. I'll just make a few points now:

Granting cores: Cores have little effect on AI behaviour, so this is principally a player issue.

If we only give cores on provinces the player already owns, a player will pay 1 or 2 BB per province for taking areas they have a good reason to expand into, and 1 or 2 BB for areas they don't. The result is that players will simply follow the money, and (in SP at least) focus on raiding the world's gold mines and COTs, without any regard to historical motivation. Even if players adopt a local focus (eg for military reasons), their direction of expansion will be based on wealth-per-province, because of the way BB works. For example, if the Caliphate gets an event in which it can opt to help the Turks but gets no shields, the player will most likely say 'screw this' and instead try to diploannex Egypt, because Egypt's provinces are far more valuable than the Turkish ones. An even more extreme example of this is for the TO, where the player will flat out refuse to go for Russia, and instead start picking apart the HRE, because there's such a huge difference in wealth. The Russian crusade is barely worth it even with the shields. Is it really fair for the TO to suffer the same BB for taking Nizhny Novgorod as for taking Berlin?

Accordingly, in some cases I think it is reasonable to gives cores for somewhat dodgy claims (the key here is that the country does have claims, but they're shaky, rather than having no excuse for its behaviour). We stop them being giveaways by giving out some BB along with the cores, but at least now the player has some incentive to go with the storyline. In some cases (particularly Jerusalem) I'm actually in favour of 'war cores' where the country LOSES the core as soon as it takes the province - Jerusalem's expansion wouldn't cause any tears to be shed in Europe, but it certainly wouldn't be accepted by the locals.

Troops:
Yes, maybe we do give out troops a bit too freely. But there are some circumstances in which we really do need to give them out:

1) If the event throws the country straight into a war (which admittedly shouldn't happen that often) or the country has been plunged into war in circumstances beyond its control and needs troops rapidly to save it from destruction (particularly to help the AI here).

2) The AI needs a lot of help in getting a sufficiently strong navy to transport its troops around. Some AI-only events for the major naval powers might be called for.

In both cases, though, they shouldn't be a complete freebie - in general the country should lose a sensible amount of cash, sometimes in excess of the market price of what they're getting to reflect the costs of rushing people/ships out to war.


Free Manus for the AI: Possible but dangerous, as players can steal them. Unless we can justify the presence of a given manufactory, I don't think we should give it. Instead, we can give the AI free tech investment and cash - if the AI has lots of cash, it may even build its own manufactories!

Here's one idea for an 'AI help' event; players might like it, because it doesn't actually give the AI very much, just forcibly shifts their priorities:

+XXXX to trade, +XXXX to infra, +cash, and MINUS land and naval investment to compensate (particularly land, the AI puts far too much into this)

Enough of these would effectively cause the AI to spend on tech more like a player, keeping them competitive for longer. It would also give them ready cash, which is very hard to come by as an AI becuase of its attitude to minting.

I can readily accept that the BB costs per province are too uniform, not just based on wealth but also on location. However, I don't see cores as the solution for this. It is one of the options we have and probably not the strongest. I see it as the clumsy/lazy option. If you want the TO to follow a certain path, there are alot of rewards you can grant it for doing so. Here are two alternate approaches to using cores.

1. The TO Crusade Issue

Given that this is a crusade its on, then surely it would earn BB for failing the Pope. Accordingly, there's a great stick to be used. Go to war and take the provinces and take the BB. Then, the Pope congratulates you for conquering the heathens and blessings the TO, in game terms reducing their BB. I mean, who else in Europe could really reduce BB but the Pope? On the flip side, if the player has NOT succeeded in capturing certain provinces, then the Pope is seriously disappointed, and issues a strong reprimand, maybe stripping the leaders of their status, causing a change in monarch, loss of commanders and increase in BB. (Both events scaled depending on the bredth of conquest or lack thereof). Knowing these events will strike you in 30 years, are you going to hit Russia or Germany? I thought so.... Doing it via event is BETTER here than cores, because with cores if the TO don't actually go on crusade then there are no repurcussions, which makes no sense. With the event, not only is the BB situation resolved if they crusade, but ignoring the crusade will earn them just as much or more BB.

2. CoTs and Gold Provinces

Given that gold and CoT provinces are few in number, we can write appropriate province-based events that reflect the greater value of such provinces. Just like the Claims events, the capture of Armenia would trigger one of the three "Greed for Gold" events for that province, which grants additional BB points and worsens relations with key neighbours. For the CoT provinces there could be both a BB increase and a triggering of coresponding events that give CBs to all nations close by that have a vested interest in that CoT.

Those are just a couple of ideas. Thoughtful events cycles are a much better tool in my mind than throwing around cores.

Also, remember than virtually nothing is going to stop players from aiming for the high quality provinces. Granting people cores doesn't alter this and in many cases actually makes it worse. Unless almost all the granted cores are in poor provinces (as for the TO and Russia) then it makes it even easier to capture rich terrain. Every French/Italian/German/British/Iberian core essentially makes it simpler for a player to DoW for the rich province and cheaper in BB when they capture it.

Totally agree with you on the ai issue regarding manufacturies. Too attractive for players, event though the manus might be destroyed in the conbat. Better to have ai events that grant tech bonuses from 1470 onwards.

Also agree with you on the need for troops sometimes (but still at cost or higher) and I never argued for a blanket removal of this feature. And with regards to ships it is vital as the ai doesn't know how to build and use them properly.

 

[unmerged(16159)]

Cores Arrrrrrgggggg. A core/shield represents your country’s legitimate claim on a province. Legitimate here meaning that other countries in your region acknowledge your prior ownership or rights, or understand that it is of dire strategic significance to you. A core is NOT just something you might like to own. And other countries are very very very reluctant to accept that their neighbours have a legitimate claim on something. The abusive give-away of cores in EU2 generally and Aberration specifically really need to be reconsidered.

Apart from the colonial claim events, I can see few instances where a nation could receive cores beyond its starting allotment. But here are a few. [/QUOTE]

Oi luv youse like a bruvva, but I am going to jump on your back about cores too.

Cores are an expression of one nations assumption of their rights over a province, and I presume comes from cultural and historical associations, or marriages. It doesn't have to be recognised by other nations, and there are many cases when 2 or more nations have a core on the same provinces, the ownership of that province is then disputed.

I will agree they can't be given out with gay abandon. Perhaps the giving of a shield on a province should be accompanied by a BB hit, or relation damage with other shield owners.

I also believe that when a nation has owned a province for a long time, they should get a shield on it, and likewise when it's been 100 years since they owned it the shield should disappear. But I think this is hard to code as a general rule. I will be writing this with specific provinces in the Hansa file.

 

[MattyG]

Oi luv youse like a bruvva, but I am going to jump on your back about cores too.

Cores are an expression of one nations assumption of their rights over a province, and I presume comes from cultural and historical associations, or marriages. It doesn't have to be recognised by other nations, and there are many cases when 2 or more nations have a core on the same provinces, the ownership of that province is then disputed.

I will agree they can't be given out with gay abandon. Perhaps the giving of a shield on a province should be accompanied by a BB hit, or relation damage with other shield owners.

I also believe that when a nation has owned a province for a long time, they should get a shield on it, and likewise when it's been 100 years since they owned it the shield should disappear. But I think this is hard to code as a general rule. I will be writing this with specific provinces in the Hansa file.

Bollocks.

The cores represent how other countires view your claims, not how you view them. That’s why they cost half the BadBoy when you take them, because despite your country’s aggressive behaviour there is a grudging acknowledgement of your claim by others. BadBoy is a critical number, and to throw around cores that mean players earn less BadBoy and have fewer Stab hits is irresponsible and inaccurate. The fact that another nation may also have that core and also have a claim recognized by other nations in your region is an enhancement of my point, not a negation of it.

Absolutely agree on your second point.

Give countries cores on provinces they own already or for a long time. That’s fine. But the phenomenon I have been referring to are events that give away cores (as in the example above for Byzantium) as an expression of a desire for conquest.

 

[unmerged(8881)]

Perhaps a limited number of pre-determined cores could be given via an event chain that triggers on neighbours' relations (is this possible?), representing continued diplomatic efforts over a number of years for others to take your stance.

For example for Byzantium to get cores on Dalmatia and Krain it needs to have 150+ relations with Hungary, Genoa, and Sicily for each of three events to trigger, each set to fire a decade after the previous, the third being the culmination of great diplomatic effort resulting in cores. Maybe BB could be a trigger too. At the least chasing good relations with big neighbours is going to cost a lot of gold and probably make rampant expansion at their expense less of an option. It might even provide an incentive to keep certain countries in the game.

 

[unmerged(8881)]

So here's the sort of thing I was talking about:

event = {
id = xxxxx1
trigger = {
owned = { province = 362 data = -1 } # Ragusa
relation = { country = HUN value = 150 }
relation = { country = GEN value = 150 }
relation = { country = PAP value = 150 }
}
random = no
country = BYZ
name = "Diplomatic machinations meet some success"
desc = "After many years and ducats your Catholic neighbours are beginning to warm to your overtures."

date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1450 }
offset = 3600
deathdate = { day = 1 month = january year = 1470 }

action_a = {
name = "Push rightful claims now that you have their ear"
command = { type = relation which = HUN value = -100 }
command = { type = relation which = GEN value = -100 }
command = { type = relation which = PAP value = -100 }
}
action_b = {
name = "Pull out of this madness and concentrate on Orthodox affairs"
command = { type = relation which = UKR value = 50 }
command = { type = relation which = GEO value = 50 }
command = { type = missionaries value = 2 }
command = { type = stability value = 1 }
command = { type = sleepevent which = xxxxx2 }
}
}

event = {
id = xxxxx2
trigger = {
event = xxxxx1
owned = { province = 362 data = -1 } # Ragusa
relation = { country = HUN value = 150 }
relation = { country = GEN value = 150 }
relation = { country = PAP value = 150 }
}
random = no
country = BYZ
name = "Diplomatic machinations bear fruit"
desc = "After many years and ducats your Catholic neighbours prepared to negotiate."

date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1490 }
offset = 3600
deathdate = { day = 1 month = january year = 1510 }

action_a = {
name = "Placate their fears with gold"
command = { type = treasury value = -200 }
command = { type = relation which = PAP value = -100 }
}
action_b = {
name = "There is more to be had from peace"
command = { type = stability value = 1 }
command = { type = dynastic which = HUN }
command = { type = dynastic which = GEN }
command = { type = sleepevent which = xxxxx3 }
}
}

event = {
id = xxxxx3
trigger = {
event = xxxxx2
owned = { province = 362 data = -1 } # Ragusa
relation = { country = HUN value = 150 }
relation = { country = GEN value = 150 }
relation = { country = PAP value = 150 }
}
random = no
country = BYZ
name = "Finally Ragusa is within our grasp"
desc = "At last Byzantium is in a position to rightfully claim Ragusa for eternity."

date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1530 }
offset = 3600
deathdate = { day = 1 month = january year = 1550 }

action_a = {
name = "Press your claims diplomatically"
command = { type = addcore which = 362 } # Ragusa
command = { type = treasury value = -400 }
command = { type = diplomats value = -3 }
command = { type = relation which = HUN value = -100 }
command = { type = relation which = GEN value = -100 }
command = { type = relation which = PAP value = -100 }
}
action_b = {
name = "Defend your claims forcefully"
command = { type = addcore which = 362 } # Ragusa
command = { type = badboy value = 2 }
command = { type = stability value = -2 }
command = { type = relation which = HUN value = -200 }
command = { type = relation which = GEN value = -200 }
command = { type = relation which = PAP value = -200 }
}
action_b = {
name = "Accept their offers for the greater good"
command = { type = stability value = 2 }
command = { type = treasury value = 300 }
command = { type = dynastic which = HUN }
command = { type = dynastic which = GEN }
}
}

 

[MattyG]

nlilith,

The principle of this event is excellent. Having your neighbours acknowldge a claim (ie grant a core, lessening BB costs) need not always come from culture or heredity. In this case, you have essentially bought people off over time. Devious, scheming, ruthless and appealing to people's base desire for money. Perfect.

I encourage its use, especially with those filthy Byzantines.

mattyG

 

[unmerged(30761)]

event = {
id = 200547
random = no
country = GRA
name = "The Alhambra"
desc = "Built during the 13th and 14th centuries by the Nasrid Dynasty, the Alhambra is a sprawling palace-citadel consisting of royal-residences, court complexes flanked by official chambers, a bath, and a mosque, all situated on a hill overlooking Granada. A varied repetoire of Moorish arched, columnar and domical forms, the palace and its vast courtyards were intended to be a physical realization of descriptions of Paradise from Islamic poetry. In 1569 AD, the Sultan hired the Byzantium Turk Mimar Sinian to undertake an expensive building project intended to expand the Alhambra into a glorious spectacle that would awe and humble visitors for centuries to come."

date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1569 }
offset = 45
deathdate = { day = 1 month = december year = 1569 }

action_a = {
name = "Build this jewel in our crown"
command = { type = treasury value = -800 }
command = { type = stability value = 2 }
command = { type = gainmanufactory which = 444 value = luxury }
command = { type = infra value = 2000 }
command = { type = vp value = 50 }
}
action_b = {
name = "Invest in fortifications instead"
command = { type = fortress which = -2 value = 1 }
command = { type = fortress which = -1 value = 1 }
command = { type = fortress which = -1 value = 1 }
command = { type = fortress which = -1 value = 1 }
}
}


This event is over the top. Just building n appropriate type of a manufactury in Granada costs 837 gold and i just happened to have 812 at that time as i was saving to build one specifically for that

 

[Nikolai II]

This event is over the top. Just building n appropriate type of a manufactury in Granada costs 837 gold and i just happened to have 812 at that time as i was saving to build one specifically for that

Funny - I would have said that the option B was the broken one.. option A works nicely..possibly remove the VP and halve the stab-gain if you want to nerf it.

The B option though.. 800+ gold in fortresses, upgrading your capital from level 2 to level 3.. and if one of the randoms strike the capital as well.. *ouch*

-

Looking back at the previous post about buying cores.. I like the concept in general .. it should perhaps be slightly faster/easier than suggested, but that is merely tweaking a good idea.

 

[MattyG]

Funny - I would have said that the option B was the broken one.. option A works nicely..possibly remove the VP and halve the stab-gain if you want to nerf it.

The B option though.. 800+ gold in fortresses, upgrading your capital from level 2 to level 3.. and if one of the randoms strike the capital as well.. *ouch*

-

Looking back at the previous post about buying cores.. I like the concept in general .. it should perhaps be slightly faster/easier than suggested, but that is merely tweaking a good idea.

Yes, option B has no cost and so that would have to be changed. There is no way these fortresses would build themselves. I think it would also need an option C, which is to 'do nothing'. Other than that this is a good event concept which we ought to include.

 

[unmerged(30761)]

it is in there in granada files. just way too cheap

for the entire game i have not improved a fortress once. except in places that had no fortresses

all land all quality and all offencive and you need no stinking fortreses in your domain. So many a time i kept winning the war and taking havy losses only to remeber that i forgot to get my sliders back from the 50% i keep them at peace time

soo many a time