Grand Culture Mod (Thread 2: Continuation of Finellach's)

[Calgacus]

Grand Culture Mod (Thread 2: Continuation)

DOWNLOAD AND TEST:

GCM for v1.05


Tags:

#DARK TAGS#

Mongol

CULTURE_MONGOL;Mongol

Muslim

CULTURE_MUSLIM;Arab

Turkish

CULTURE_NONE;
CULTURE_ALAN;Nubian
CULTURE_CUMAN;Kipchak
CULTURE_PECHENEG;Kurdish
CULTURE_PERSIAN;Persian
CULTURE_TURKISH;Turkish
CULTURE_ABGHAZIAN;Moorish


#LIGHT TAGS#


Byzantine

CULTURE_GREEK;Greek
CULTURE_GEORGIAN;Georgian
CULTURE_ARMENIAN;Armenian
CULTURE_BYZANTINE;Alan

Celtic

CULTURE_SCOTTISH;Scottish
CULTURE_IRISH;Irish
CULTURE_WELSH;British
CULTURE_CELTIC;Breton

Easternslavic

CULTURE_SOUTH_SLAVIC;Serb
CULTURE_RUSSIAN;Rus'ian
CULTURE_EASTERN_SLAVIC;Bulgarian

Frankish

CULTURE_ENGLISH;English
CULTURE_FRANKISH;French
CULTURE_NORMAN;Norman

German

CULTURE_GERMAN;German
CULTURE_DUTCH;Frisian

Iberian

CULTURE_BASQUE;Basque
CULTURE_CASTILLAN;Castilian
CULTURE_CATALAN;Catalan
CULTURE_PORTUGUESE;Portugese
CULTURE_IBERIAN;Flemish

Italian

CULTURE_ITALIAN;Italian
CULTURE_LATIN;Occitan

Norse

CULTURE_NORWEGIAN;Finnish
CULTURE_SWEDISH;Norse
CULTURE_DANISH;Vlach
CULTURE_SAXON;Permian
CULTURE_NORSE;NOT USED

Ugricbaltic

CULTURE_LAPPISH;Sard
CULTURE_FINNISH;Albanian
CULTURE_PRUSSIAN;Mordvin
CULTURE_LETTIGALLISH;Magyar
CULTURE_LITHUANIAN;Lithuanian
CULTURE_UGRIC_BALTIC;Wendish

Westernslavic

CULTURE_HUNGARIAN;Carinthian
CULTURE_WESTERN_SLAVIC;Croat
CULTURE_BOHEMIAN;Bohemian
CULTURE_POLISH;Polish

I display the current modified setup for 1066:

1187

1337

NB: Anyone wishing to obtain hard editable bitmap versions of the following 6 maps should PM me, and I can send by Gmail or Yousendit.

#PAST DISCUSSIONS, OR ATTEMPTED DISCUSSIONS#

CENTRAL EUROPE 1187 & 1337


CENTRAL RUSSIA & THE STEPPE 1187 & 1337

NEAR-EAST 1187 & 1337

ITALY, GREECE & THE BALKANS 1187 & 1337

SPAIN 1187 & 1337

Finellach has handed over his Grand Culture Mod to the control of myself, along with the assistance of Semi-Lobster.


http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?p=4249801

Everything is more or less up for discussion, but

1) Tags are not unlimited in number. That means that many areas of the map will be very misrepresented. But we do not face a choice of perfect representation versus awful representation. The choice lies in prioritizing, in order to get the best out of an imperfect and limited set of options.

2) Tags will be assigned by their historical and gameplay enjoyabilty significance, along with considerations of cultural and linguistic differences. So it maybe true that Permian Finnic differed more from Karelian Finnic than French from Italian, but the cultural differences between Franks and Italians outway Finnic cultural differences in historical significance from the point of view of this game.

3) Don't expect to sway conservative opinion by grand, but vague statements unsubstantiated by good historical evidence.

4) In the knowledge that culture-threads are prone to provoke passion, please everyone make points with as much courtesy as possible. While firm statements may draw attention to significant and important argument or perspective, they are just as likely to make a person mad, produce a flame war, and even have the thread closed.

5) The setup as it stands was the result of long discussions and few changes were made absent mindedly. Please, if you can, read the previous thread.

For all new cultures, It'd be great to produce and discuss character name lists, if pos. in the default female-male alphabetical order found in the db/character_names.csv file.

Everyone's participation is valued.

 

[Calgacus]

Tags

These are the vanilla patches as of June 3rd Beta Patch:

1066

1187

1337

 

[Veldmaarschalk]

If the map only stands for the 1066 setup, then let me be the first one to propose a change, which deals with the dutch culture, of course

Then the counties of Zeeland, Holland, West-Friesland, Frisia, Ost-Friesland, Oldenburg should have the Frisian culture.

The counties of Gelre, Sticht, Breda should have german culture.

The other counties could receive flemish culture but since that would use up to much tags, the frankish culture.

To make it clear this is only for the 1066 setup, if the maps stands for the entire period of CK, dutch is the best solution.

If Frisian isn't ok (being a to small culture) we could also split the german culture in 2 (High and Low german) the northern low countries would then receive low german culture. The culture name Low German isn't really my favourite cause it sounds so scientific. But it would be the best generic term for it.

But another thought is that there aren't huge differences between low and high german names, at least not that I know.

 

[Calgacus]

If the map only stands for the 1066 setup, then let me be the first one to propose a change, which deals with the dutch culture, of course

Then the counties of Zeeland, Holland, West-Friesland, Frisia, Ost-Friesland, Oldenburg should have the Frisian culture.

The counties of Gelre, Sticht, Breda should have german culture.

The other counties could receive flemish culture but since that would use up to much tags, the frankish culture.

To make it clear this is only for the 1066 setup, if the maps stands for the entire period of CK, dutch is the best solution.

If Frisian isn't ok (being a to small culture) we could also split the german culture in 2 (High and Low german) the northern low countries would then receive low german culture. The culture name Low German isn't really my favourite cause it sounds so scientific. But it would be the best generic term for it.

But another thought is that there aren't huge differences between low and high german names, at least not that I know.

ATM, I'm not inclined towards a Low German, High German split, althouigh as always, I could be persuaded. My problem is the artificiality of the name, the naming patterns and the general pointlessness of doing it.

Frisian and Flemish sound attractive, because they are genuinely authentic medieval cultures, unlike "Dutch."

We need to free some tags.

I need to hear what people think of the following:

1) Scandinavian cultures merged
2) The southern Slavs divided into (i) South Slavic and (ii) Croat
3) Kipchak renamed Turkic
4) Lettish and Lithuanian merged
5) lappish recreated
6) Moravian scrapped

That would free 5 tags. Scrapping Dutch would free another. But, of course, firstly we need some discussion

 

[unmerged(27913)]

Why don't you simply rename the Dutch to Flemish and add it to Boulogne, Guines, Yperen, Gent, Brugge and Brabant. Posibbly also to Zeeland.

Also I'd suggest renaming Saxon to Anglian....it would lessen the confusion with Saxons living outside of Saxony. Alan would also sound better as Ossetian...but thats my personal subjcetive opinion.

Also Greek is IMO a bit too much. Not all people living in Byzantinum were Greeks although Greek was main language of communication. Perhaps better would be Byzantine or simply Hellenic. Same with Italian....since it covers Sardinia, Corsica and Dalmatia the best would be to name the tag Latin or Italic.

Anyway the map sucks....it's totally ahistorical....

 

[Veldmaarschalk]

Low and High German aren't my favourite names either.

South slavic I would stick to Finnellach setup

Also looking at the names of the western slavic and polish cultures those 2 could be merged. But I am not sure.

Since I am dutch I don't want to sound like someone who wants all his local cultures represented and other main cultures merged.

Moravian and Bohemian could be merged I agree.

Finnellach :rofl: I thought you wouldn't participate anymore.

Zeeland I would give Frisian culture, since on all the maps you can see that the whole region is named Friesland. Friesland wasn't a political entity but more the region where the Frisians lived.

 

[Calgacus]

Low and High German aren't my favourite names either.

South slavic I would stick to Finnellach setup

Also looking at the names of the western slavic and polish cultures those 2 could be merged. But I am not sure.

Since I am dutch I don't want to sound like someone who wants all his local cultures represented and other main cultures merged.

Moravian and Bohemian could be merged I agree.

Finnellach :rofl: I thought you wouldn't participate anymore.

Zeeland I would give Frisian culture, since on all the maps you can see that the whole region is named Friesland. Friesland wasn't a political entity but more the region where the Frisians lived.

Finellach was Croatian, so he's prolly inclined to have more Balkan cultures than are really needed. I'm really not sure that in general terms, 4 close slavic cultures in such a small area of the balkans alone are necessary, given the demand on the tags.

Semi-Lobster, if you're reading, you need to empty your PM box so I can reply to you.

 

[Veldmaarschalk]

Then it is maybe good to ad a rule to the first post, that a culture must at least have X number of provinces ?

 

[unmerged(27913)]

Moravian and Bohemian could be merged I agree.

And how would you call this merged blob? Bohemian? Thats like calling Italians French.

Finnellach :rofl: I thought you wouldn't participate anymore.

I said I won't post in Byakhiams threads.

Zeeland I would give Frisian culture, since on all the maps you can see that the whole region is named Friesland. Friesland wasn't a political entity but more the region where the Frisians lived.

Frisians would go well into German tag. I don't see why would Frisians be added and Moravians scrapped. Why would Frisians have that privilege and Moravian Slavs not? Besides Moravians are far more justified as a separate culture than Frisians since they actually had their own state and numbered far greater than Frisians ever did.

 

[unmerged(21937)]

Minimum of X number of provinces would kill off Basques with any meaningful value of X.

 

[unmerged(27913)]

Finellach was Croatian, so he's prolly inclined to have more Balkan cultures than are really needed. I'm really not sure that in general terms, 4 close slavic cultures in such a small area of the balkans alone are necessary, given the demand on the tags.

You know I resent this....I was far objective than anyone would be. Furthermore it's like saying you don't really need Catalan, Occitan, French and Italian since they are all four really close latin/romance cultures...ridiculous. There is nothing with which you can justify one merged Caranatanian(Slovene)/Croatian/Serbian/Bulgarian tag. Thats just simply ridiculous.

 

[Calgacus]

Minimum of X number of provinces would kill off Basques with any meaningful value of X.

Were Basques really confined to such a small number of provinces? I doubt it somehow. Gascony means "land of the Basques" and I remember reading in the Basque history of the world that their language flourished through north-eastern Iberia. I'll need to do more research.

 

[Calgacus]

There is nothing with which you can justify one merged Caranatanian(Slovene)/Croatian/Serbian/Bulgarian tag. Thats just simply ridiculous.

No, I wasn't planning on doing that. I appreciate the value of your arguments here, but 4 is excessive. 3 at most, I was waiting on your comments on a Bulgarian/Serbian and Croat/Carantanian split.

 

[unmerged(21937)]

Were Basques really confined to such a small number of provinces? I doubt it somehow. Gascony means "land of the Basques" and I remember reading in the Basque history of the world that their language flourished through north-eastern Iberia. I'll need to do more research.

But provincial culture represents majority culture, not the presence of culture.

 

[Semi-Lobster]

It's emptied, sorry

As for the Balkans I don't think we should change it, if not just for naming reasons (tjey had different given names) but considering the fact that Bulgars aren't that Slavic compared to their neighbours, and Carantanian was very influences by the Latins languages, so reducing four cultures to two would not work.

Scandanavian cultures: Hmmm... that's a tough one, we would either have to merge them all or leave them the way they are because we can't have double standards and such. I think we'd need a 'Scandanavian' expert to comment on this issue.

I don't see the point of renaming Kipchak turkic since we already have Turkic Kipchak is supposed to represent the Pagan Kipchak Turks as opposed to the (generally) Muslim Oghuz Turks, not just for tech differences but the fact that we shouldn't have pagan Cumans and Pechenegs named 'Mehmed'

Lithuanian and Lettish: This screams 'merge me'

Moravian: Finellach did bring up some good points as to why it should stay in but if we merge the norse into Scandanavian then I see no reason why we should not do it with Bohemian and Moravian.

Now let's think, what would we do with these free tags?

 

[Veldmaarschalk]

Frisians would go well into German tag. I don't see why would Frisians be added and Moravians scrapped. Why would Frisians have that privilege and Moravian Slavs not? Besides Moravians are far more justified as a separate culture than Frisians since they actually had their own state and numbered far greater than Frisians ever did.

In CK period there was no independent Moravian state, that was before 1066, just like there was a Frisian Kingdom before 1066.

Do you have any numbers/sources about how many Moravians there were and how many Frisians ?

EDIT

Yes.
I'll also continue working on the culture map but everything is now for my own personal use.

You people can do now whatever you wish with this mod without me standing in your way. o

:rofl:

 

[Calgacus]

But provincial culture represents majority culture, not the presence of culture.

Of course. I don't remember saying otherwise.

 

[unmerged(27913)]

I was waiting on your comments on a Bulgarian/Serbian and Croat/Carantanian split.

Totally wrong. Bulgarian and Serbian merged would be like merging Polish and Rus'.
Carantanians and Croats would work on the other hand but how would you call this culture? Croatian? Croats never spread so much to the north...you risk of being called a "balkan nationalist". I say leave it as it is. Or if you really want merge Carantanian, Croatian and Serbian into "Slavonic" culture but then you'd really need to be careful with the name list...which is almost mission imposibble....the names are so different that I can't even begin comparing it.

Moravian: Finellach did bring up some good points as to why it should stay in but if we merge the norse into Scandanavian then I see no reason why we should not do it with Bohemian and Moravian.

Yes but Scandinavian cultures were far more similar and even related politically and culturally then Moravians and Bohemians. Yes Bohemians and Moravians did have very similar language same as Norsemen but they weren'....I don't know how to say so I'll put it simple - how would you call this merged Bohemian-Moravian Slavic tag? Czechoslovak? :rofl:

@Veldmaarchalk - one just needs to look the area which the Moravians Slavs occuppied and the area occupied by Frisians. Btw. it didn't even still pass not even 100 years before "Great Moravia" was paritioned....these people still called themselves Moravian Slavs, Slovieni, etc....they didn't call themselves Hungarians or Bohemians..they were aware of their separate ethnic origin.
Yes so did Frisians but Frisians are not even half that important as for example Moravian Slavs are and besides they fit fine within both Dutch and German...Moravians don't fit anywhere except as a separate tag...

 

[unmerged(21937)]

Caranto-Croatians?

 

[unmerged(27913)]

Caranto-Croatians?

:rofl: