HABEMVS PAPAM! Papal States and Catholicism overhaul, and much more!

[Van Kasten]

Hello there!
This thread is something I anticipated for a long time. I wanted to post it before, but I decided to wait for today's dev diary before. Central Italy was perhaps the most dynamic part of Italy during the first half of EU4's timeframe, and I want the game to better represent that.

Now, what are the current problems with Central Italy (and with the Papal States in particular):
- centralized Papal States in 1444 -> extremely ahistorical
- the Papal States is a state like any other, no, even worse, since it has no access to the Papal Influence related mechanics and the Catholic bonuses.

This will change. With this suggestion, the Papal States are gonna be destroyed and reforged, and the Catholic mechanics as well.

Fast links to navigate this thread:

1. Map Changes (following)
2. Nations: here
3. New formable Nation, New Government Reforms, How to Portray an Occult Signoria and Two Little Decisions: here
4. Papal (or Decentralized) Vassals, A new Latin Culture, Latin Cultural Names: here
5. Data exposition and basic statistics on Cardinals, Cardinal-Nephews, Conclaves, College of Cardinals and Concistories: here
6. Current problem of Catholicism in-game, New Papal Influence generation, New Cardinals and how to Influence them, How to influence a Conclave and New Papal Controllers: here
7. Adjustments to Influence spent on Cardinals, How and Why Cardinals go Abroad, Concistories and New Pace/Diplomacy/Espionage options: here
8. Capitulations, the College of Cardinals as a Parliament and How to use (RoM DLC) traits to improve the proposed mechanics: here
9. Internal Problems of the Papal States in 1444, How to Portray and How to Solve them in the game, Kingdom of God and other decisions: here
10. Tithes, Provincial Legates and Some Minor Suggestions: here

I'll add, for all of you who want to know better the Republic of Ancona, the suggestion posted by my friend @Funchi: here

HABEMVS PAPAM

Let's get down to business, here is what this long series of posts will be about:
-Reviving Central Italy, in particular the regions of Lazio, Umbria, Marche and Romagna
-Reviving Catholicism in a historical manner
-Other minor suggestions

I'm sorry, but I will not touch Tuscany (exept from a new province). Maybe in the future
Also, the province histories does not contain the Napoleonic occupations. They will inherit that form the province they were split from.

Speaking about the map I want to propose:
- 8 new provinces
- 7 new nations
- 2 new states

DISCLAIMER: the "?" means I'm not exactly sure but it's my best guess. When denoting ruler's skills, it means that I did not find any information about them or the avaiable information is not enough to draw a conlusion. In game, I'd like them to be random.

But let's not wait longer, see it with your own eyes:

Part 1 : MAP CHANGES

As you can see, Central Italy is now much more fragmented.

- In GREEN, there is the current state of Emilia-Romagna, which will become only Emilia, containing only Parma, Modena and Ferrara. Ferrara is effectively part of Romagna in real life, but to avoid punishing the nation of Ferrara and for having 3 provinces in the state, it will be in Emilia.

- In BROWN, we have the State of Tuscany. A very rich land, it will have a province more. The Republic of Siena is now split in two. That's because the Siena province was too big and round and because the city of Siena was somehow placed on the coast. Now, the province of Grosseto grants Siena access to the sea.

Spoiler: Grosseto

GROSSETO:
-Province:
Marsh
Cattle
Development: 3/3/3
Area: Tuscany

-History:
1336-1559 -> annexed by Siena
1559-1569 -> annexed by Florence (alongside with Siena -> Peace of Cateau-Cambresis)
1569-1821 -> annexed by Tuscany (Florence became Tuscany)

Now we get to the interesting part.

- In RED, we have the new State of Romagna. It consist of 4 provinces, belonging to 4 different nations: we have Ravenna, which was conquered in 1441 by the Republic of Venice, Bologna, which was a semi-independent Occult Signoria, Imola, which was ruled by the Manfredi family on behalf of the Duke of Milan and Rimini, which was a semi-independent Signoria ruled by House Malatesta. What is a semi-independet state or a Signoria? We'll talk about that later. Here, have some data about the provinces:

Spoiler: Bologna

BOLOGNA:
-Province:
Grasslands
Cloth
Development: 5/5/3
Area: Romagna
-Nation:
Republic (Occult Signoria)
Leader: Annibale Bentivoglio (2/4/3), Romagnan culture, age=31, ruling for 1 year (1 trait)
Heir: Giovanni Bentivoglio (6/5/3), Romagnan culture, age=1

-History:
1443-1445 -> Annibale Bentivoglio (2/4/3), Romagnan culture, born in 1413
1445-1463 -> Sante Bentivoglio (3/4/1), Romagnan culture, born in 1424
1463-1506 -> Giovanni II Bentivoglio (6/5/3), Romagnan culture, born in 1443
1506-1511 -> annexed by the Papal States
1511-1512 -> Annibale II Bentivoglio (1/3/4), Romagnan culture, born in 1466
1512-1821 -> annexed by the Papal States

Spoiler: Ravenna

RAVENNA:
-Province:
Grasslands
Grain
Development: from 2/3/1 to 3/4/2 (3/3/1 advised)
Area: Romagna
-Cores:
Ravenna -> Signoria (special government)
if liberated before 1447, new leader will be Ostasio III da Polenta (in exile at the start)

-History:
1441-1510 -> annexed by Venice
1510-1821 -> annexed by the Papal States

Spoiler: Imola

IMOLA:
-Province:
Hills
Grain
Development: from 2/2/1 to 3/2/2 (2/2/2 advised)
Area: Romagna
-Status: decentralized vassal under Milan (or vassal under Milan, or guaranteed by Milan)
-Nation:
Monarchy (Signoria) -> (leader cosmetic title) Signore, Signora
Leader: Guidantonio Manfredi (3/1/3), Romagnan culture, age=37, ruling for 5 years (2 traits)
Consort: Agnese da Montefreltro (?/?/?), Umbrian culture, age=?
Heir: Astorre Manfredi (?/?/?), Romagnan culture, age=32 (brother of Guidantonio)

-History:
1439-1448 -> Guidantonio Manfredi (3/1/3), Romagnan culture, born in 1407
1448-1468 -> Astorre II Manfredi (?/?/?), Romagnan culture, born 8th Decemeber 1412
1468-1473 -> Taddeo Manfredi (?/?/?), Romagnan culture, born in 1431 -> pressed by the Duke of Milan, sells the city to the Cardinal Pietro Riario who gives it to his relative Girolamo Riario (nephew of Pope Sixtus IV)
1473-1488 -> Girolamo Riario (2/5/3), Ligurian culture, born in 1443
1488-1499 -> (consort-regent) Caterina Sforza (4/5/4), Lombard culture, born in 1463
1499-1503 -> annexed by the Duchy of Romagna led by Cesare Borgia (3/4/5), Umbrian culture, born 13 September 1475
1503-1504 -> Interregnum (0/0/0)
1504-1821 -> annexed by the Papal States

Spoiler: Rimini

RIMINI:
-Province:
Coastline
Grain or Fish
Development: from 3/2/2 to 4/3/2
Area: Romagna
-Nation:
Monarchy (Signoria) -> (leader cosmetic title) Signore, Signora
Leader: Sigismondo Pandolfo Malatesta (3/3/4), Romagnan culture, age=27, ruling for 12 years (2 traits)
Consort: Polissena Sforza (?/?/?), Romagnan culture, age=16
Heir: Roberto "il Magnifico" Malatesta (2/2/5), Romagnan Culture, age=4

-History:
1432-1468 -> Sigismondo Pandolfo Malatesta (3/3/4), Romagnan culture, born 19 June 1417
1468-1482 -> Roberto "il Magnifico" Malatesta (2/2/5), Romagnan Culture, born in 1440
1482-1500 -> Pandolfo IV Malatesta (1/2/1), Romagnan Culture, born July 1475
1500-1503 -> annexed by the Duchy of Romagna led by Cesare Borgia (3/4/5), Umbrian culture, born 13 September 1475
1503-1509 -> annexed by Venice
1509-1821 -> annexed by the Papal States

Woah, that is quite a bit of history knowledge, and it may gave you some ideas of some things I want to suggest later. But let's talk about why I added these 4 provinces:
-Imola: point of contrast between Milan, Florence and the Papal States (via an event if necessary). It also takes a diplomatic slot of Milan.
-Ravenna: point of contrast between Venice and the Papal States, it also buffs Venice
-Bologna: important city in Romagna, subdued at the start of the XVI century fter a war.
-Rimini: important state opposed to Urbino, both famous for their contrasts and their condottieri.

Not satisfied enough? Here we go again:

- In LIME (do not judge me for the color choice), we have the new State of Marca Anconitana, in large part semi-autonomous form the Pope's rule. We have 4 provinces here: Urbino (you alrerady know this guy), Ancona, a Merchant Republic, Camerino, a Sgnoria ruled by the Da Varano family, and lstly Macerata, the only part of the state that the Pope controls.

Spoiler: Ancona

ANCONA:
-Province:
Hills or Farmlands
Wine or Paper (as of now)
Development: 6/6/2
Area: Marca Anconitana

-History:
XI century-1532 -> Merchant Republic of Ancona
1532-1821 -> annexed by the Papal States

There will be a level 1 Center of Trade in this province, moved from the nearby Urbino.
My friend @Funchi will tell you more about this Nation

Spoiler: Macerata

MACERATA:
-Province:
Hills
Wine
Development: 4/3/3
Area: Marca Anconitana

-History:
1444-1821 -> the Papal States

Spoiler: Camerino

CAMERINO:
-Province:
Hills
Grain or Cattle
Development: from 2/2/1 to 3/2/2
Area: Marca Anconitana
-Nation:
Monarchy (Signoria) -> (leader cosmetic title) Signore, Signora
Leader: (regency) Elisabetta Malatesta (?/?/?), Umbrian culture, age=37
Heir: Giulio Cesare da Varano (4/2/4), Umbrian culture, age=10

-History:
1444-1449 -> Elisabetta Malatesta (?/?/?), Umbrian culture, born in 1407 (regency uses the same rules as a normal regency in EU4)
1449-1502 -> Giulio Cesare da Varano (4/2/4), Umbrian culture, born in 1434
1502-1503 -> annexed by the Duchy of Romagna led by Cesare Borgia (3/4/5), Umbrian culture, born 13 September 1475
1503-1527 -> Giovanni Maria da Varano (2/2/3), Umbrian culture, born in 1481 -> Becomes a Duchy
1527-1535 -> Caterina Cybo (?/?/?), Ligurian culure, born 13 Semptember 1501 -> regent for Giulia da Varano
1535-1539 -> Giulia da Varano (?/?/?), Umbrian culture, born 24 March 1523 (died 18 february 1547) -> consort of Guidobaldo II della Rovere, Duke of Urbino
1540-1545 -> Ottavio Farnese (4/4/4), Umbrian culture, born 9 October 1524 (renounced to become Duke of Parma) -- already in-game
1545-1821 -> annexed by the Papal States

Spoiler: Urbino

URBINO:
the province is more or less the same. I prefer to make it lose 1/1/0 development and then compate it by giving it back with an event on the Urbinese Renaissance. More on that later.
Also, the level 1 Center of Trade should be moved to the province of Ancona, much richer and more of a trade hub than Urbino.

So, here I have to defend myself a little. Those of you familiar with Central Italy in the XVth Century already have noticed them, but for the others I'll say that there are three mistakes in this area:
-Ancona should not border Urbino, however I make them border each other to ease an Ancona start and to make the Macerata province look better.
-Camerino should not have any access to Naples, let alone to the sea! I know, but as an enclave state, no one in their right mind would ever had played this Nation, so I gave them a carrot and not the stick they deserved.
-Macerata shoud not be in the Pope's control yet! I know, there was a large Signoria controlled by the future Duke of Milan Francesco Sforza. But it ended in 1445 and will be excessively difficult to model, so I'll represent things this way.

Last but not least, we have in BLUE the State of Lazio-Umbria. Yes, I know, what about Lazio-Campania and Central Italy? Well, they are gone! They were extremely ahistorical and prompted the Pope and the King of Naples to cut each other's throat, which was again ahistorical. So I made a better state. Here, we have 4 provinces: one of which is not under the Papal States: Perugia. Here we have the Occult Signoria of the Baglioni family, that will rule for a more or less a century before getting conquered by the Pope.

Spoiler: Perugia

PERUGIA:
-Province:
Hills
Wine
Development: circa 4/4/2
Area: Lazio-Umbria
-Nation:
Republic (Occult Signoria) -> (leader cosmetic title) Signore, Signora
Leader: Braccio I Baglioni (5/5/5), Umbrian culture, age=25, ruling for 6 years (2 traits: Martial Educator, Freethinker)

-History:
1438-1479 -> Braccio I Baglioni(5/5/5), Umbrian culture, born in 1419
1479-1500 -> triple signoria of Guido I, Rodolfo I and Astorre I
1500-1520 -> Giampaolo I Baglioni (?/?/?), Umbrian culture, born in 1470
1520-1527 -> Gentile I Baglioni (?/?/?), Umbrian culture, born in ?
1527-1531 -> Malatesta IV Baglioni (2/4/4), Umbrian culture, born in 1491
1531-1540 -> Rodolfo II Baglioni (2/0/2), Umbrian culture, born 1st July 1518
1540-1821 -> annexed by the Papal States

Spoiler: Spoleto

SPOLETO:
-Province:
Hills
Wine?
Development: from 2/2/2 to 3/3/3
Area: Lazio-Umbria
-Nation:
the Papal States

-History:
1444-1821 -> the Papal States

Spoiler: Campagna

CAMPAGNA:
Capital: Frosinone
-Province:
Marsh or Hills (territory is divided in two part: marshes near the sea and hills where the province capital is)
Grain or Cattle
Development: from 2/2/2 to 4/4/4 (3/3/3 is advised)
Area: Lazio-Umbria
-Nation:
the Papal States

-History:
1444-1821 -> the Papal States

Spoiler: Rome

In this proposal, Rome should lose 2 manpower development.

So, here I will say just one thingabout Lazio-Umbria. The Campagna province reprsents the Legation of "Campagna e Marittima". It also serves to separate Rome from Naples and introduce some strategic depth.

I'll briefly talk about the province of Avignon, although there is not much to say. In my suggestion, to better balance the development count of the Papal States, the province of Avignon loses 1/1/1 development.

Well, this is the end of the map changes!
STAY TUNED! Next is coming: new nations, government reforms and Occult Singoria!

PS: also, I will tage here @DDRJake and @neondt to make this thread more visible to the devs, since this area will be touched nex year.

PPS: I do not know yet how many parts I will publish, but they will be a lot!

 

[korawit13]

@Van Kasten, nice to you again and thank you for your hard work.

 

[Van Kasten]

@Van Kasten, nice to you again and thank you for your hard work.

Thank you for the kind words and for having read it all

 

[Federalist girl]

Fascinating suggestion -- I don't play EU4 much, but when I do, I've mostly been curious about the Papal States, because this is the only Paradox game you can play them in. Sadly they seem to only be partially functional and not represented well in the game.

Your suggestions are fascinating -- if I take it correctly, you're suggesting the Papal States essentially turn into an overarching structure like the HRE, with the Pope being permanently attached to Roma as a separate nation tag rather than a Papal States nation tag?

I also noticed that you didn't include Roma yet in your list of discussed nations and flags. How were you thinking of representing the City -- using the papal flag or using the flag of the City of Roma?

 

[Hawkslime]

I've mostly been curious about the Papal States, because this is the only Paradox game you can play them in.

Victoria II wants to know your location

 

[Van Kasten]

Fascinating suggestion -- I don't play EU4 much, but when I do, I've mostly been curious about the Papal States, because this is the only Paradox game you can play them in. Sadly they seem to only be partially functional and not represented well in the game.

Your suggestions are fascinating -- if I take it correctly, you're suggesting the Papal States essentially turn into an overarching structure like the HRE, with the Pope being permanently attached to Roma as a separate nation tag rather than a Papal States nation tag?

I also noticed that you didn't include Roma yet in your list of discussed nations and flags. How were you thinking of representing the City -- using the papal flag or using the flag of the City of Roma?

Well, for simplicity the territories held by the Pope would be called Papal States as of now, and also the flag would remain the same, since the Pope’s symbol is the Keys of St.Peter.

 

[Calanon]

@Van Kasten what's your opinion on the new Signoria government shown in the DD?

 

[Van Kasten]

@Van Kasten what's your opinion on the new Signoria government shown in the DD?

It’s difficult to have a strong opinion, since they have shown us some words only.
I require more information to have that strong opinion.

These information would be:
• Do rulers rule for life?
• If Yes, are there gonna be new Third Tier Government Reforms to select? If Not, why?
• The Signoria Government will be part of the free update or of the Expansion?
• Is there a Mechanic to assure a smooth transition between Signoria and Monarchy/Republic? If Not, why?
• Is there the possibility of a Signoria to become a Republican Dictatorship? If Yes, why?
• Are there new mechanics and events regarding a Signoria? If Not, why?
• How are rulers generated? More like a Monarchy of more like a Republic?
• Since the -40 Absolutism penalty is now different, which is the value?
• Why do Siena and Lucca have the Signoria government form if they were not Signorie? Who are their starting “powerful families?”
• If Siena and Lucca are Signorie to “justify” the introduction of the Signoria government form, there is one thing to consider. Ravenna was a Signoria and was conquered in 1441, why is there no core? Also, Perugia’s core could be introduced, since it was a Signoria (and was not integrated into the Papal States until the ‘500).

As you can see, we know very little about the “Signoria” government, except that it would be a Republican-type and that there will be the possibility to elect rulers of the same “dominant” family.

Until we know more, it’s premature to either saying that is good or saying that is bad.

 

[Calanon]

It’s difficult to have a strong opinion, since they have shown us some words only.
I require more information to have that strong opinion.

These information would be:
• Do rulers rule for life?
• If Yes, are there gonna be new Third Tier Government Reforms to select? If Not, why?
• The Signoria Government will be part of the free update or of the Expansion?
• Is there a Mechanic to assure a smooth transition between Signoria and Monarchy/Republic? If Not, why?
• Is there the possibility of a Signoria to become a Republican Dictatorship? If Yes, why?
• Are there new mechanics and events regarding a Signoria? If Not, why?
• How are rulers generated? More like a Monarchy of more like a Republic?
• Since the -40 Absolutism penalty is now different, which is the value?
• Why do Siena and Lucca have the Signoria government form if they were not Signorie? Who are their starting “powerful families?”
• If Siena and Lucca are Signorie to “justify” the introduction of the Signoria government form, there is one thing to consider. Ravenna was a Signoria and was conquered in 1441, why is there no core? Also, Perugia’s core could be introduced, since it was a Signoria (and was not integrated into the Papal States until the ‘500).

As you can see, we know very little about the “Signoria” government, except that it would be a Republican-type and that there will be the possibility to elect rulers of the same “dominant” family.

Until we know more, it’s premature to either saying that is good or saying that is bad.

I looked at it again (the image) and saw that elections are every 12 years apparently. So not for life.

 

[Van Kasten]

I looked at it again (the image) and saw that elections are every 12 years apparently. So not for life.

Why 12 years? This make no sense...

 

[Calanon]

Why 12 years? This make no sense...

Wish I knew.
Also -40(!!!) absolutism, allows plutocratic ideas, allows royal marriage and national tax +5.

 

[Van Kasten]

Wish I knew.
Also -40(!!!) absolutism, allows plutocratic ideas, allows royal marriage and national tax +5.

The National Tax is the same as the Oligarchic Republic. It’s not flavorful but can work.

The allowing of Royal Marriages is fine and good, and I hope that also the Papal States will have it.

The allowing of Plutocratic Ideas is a debatable one, but in most cases would be fine. Personally, I would have preferred a more dynamic switching based on who was in power, but these are details.

The -40 Absolutism makes no sense and the devs said it was an old screenshot and that now this penalty is changed, but they have not said which is the new value.

 

[rus-chel]

Devs should definetely consider this a roadmap for catholicism!
The year is only half-way through, there's time to implement all those magnificent ideas

 

[Van Kasten]

Devs should definetely consider this a roadmap for catholicism!
The year is only half-way through, there's time to implement all those magnificent ideas

Thank you for the reply and for the kind words! I hope that too!

However, in this months the devs have probably set up their roadmaps and we do not know yet if this Suggestion has inspired them, but let’s hope so!