Halych-Volhynia and transforming central-eastern Europe

[unmerged(30761)]

Not to get too off topic, but the Byzantine Emperor should look more kindly at Ukrane and help it spank H-V if it is not Ortodox after other issues are settled with Ukraine and stability and economy are good in Byzantium. Slavs turning to the rites of the impostors. That is insolence

 

[Incompetent]

Well, with the culture issue it seems that every source is different. The things I can find on the Rus' (Ruthenians) has them stretching all the way to Smolensk, as does something on Russian culture. If Lithuania doesn't form in the same way then I think this Baltic culture ought not to go beyond Belarus and Lithuania.

Ruthenian needs and desrves to be more than thwo provinces. Having only Chernigov and Volyn as Ruthenian is hardly worth it. Mozyr I think ought to be Ruthenian and part of H-V.

I can change the others to Russian.

Fair enough. The TO should eventually be able to Baltify some of these, though, especially Mozyr (which is Lithuanian culture in vanilla).


Ruthenian would start with Volyn, Chernigov, Ruthenia, Moyzr and Podolia, at least. If we let the culture expand, it's no sillier than Burgundian or Hanseatic.

In terms of balancing Ruthenian and Ukrainian, there are currently far too many Ruthenian Orthodox provinces in the Golden Horde's lands. In a number of southern provinces the Crimean Tatars were the dominant people, and Kouban could even be Caucasian. The mouth of the Sea of Azov had some Greek colonies, but no Ruthenians AFAIK. And I don't think there were many Ruthenians east of the Volga, though there were quite a variety of other peoples. That's not to say that Ukraine couldn't assimilate or displace some of them in the way Russia did historically, but it shouldn't be automatic.

Eventually Galizien would change to Ruthenian, as the Interregnum game would presume it has been part of H-V since 1250. Maybe it starts Ruthenian and can become Polish if the Poles capture it or the Hungarians want to promote the Polish nobles over the Ruthenians?

Matty

If it's the capital of H-V and it starts off surrounded by Ruthenian provinces, it may as well be Ruthenian itself. Poland would want to turn it back to Polish, but I'm not sure how often we want Hungary to get Polish culture.

 

[MattyG]

Fair enough. The TO should eventually be able to Baltify some of these, though, especially Mozyr (which is Lithuanian culture in vanilla).

Yes, but this isn't Vanilla and there's no Lithuania.

Ruthenian would start with Volyn, Chernigov, Ruthenia, Moyzr and Podolia, at least. If we let the culture expand, it's no sillier than Burgundian or Hanseatic.

Podolia needs to be Ukrainian as it is part of the Ukraine. The game has written a different history of eastern Europe and we need to believe that a genuine Ukrainian identity has emerged by 1300 rather than not until 1600+. However, Podolia would have been H-V territory within the previous 100 years, so it could be converted to Ruthenian.

In terms of balancing Ruthenian and Ukrainian, there are currently far too many Ruthenian Orthodox provinces in the Golden Horde's lands. In a number of southern provinces the Crimean Tatars were the dominant people, and Kouban could even be Caucasian. The mouth of the Sea of Azov had some Greek colonies, but no Ruthenians AFAIK. And I don't think there were many Ruthenians east of the Volga, though there were quite a variety of other peoples. That's not to say that Ukraine couldn't assimilate or displace some of them in the way Russia did historically, but it shouldn't be automatic.

Agreed. We could make events for Kouban to become Caucasian if owned by Georgia or Armenia, but begins Altai as they would be the elite there, as well as having a solid population of them.

Ukrainian provinces:

Podolia (convertable to Ruthenian)
Jedisan
Ukraina
Krementjug
Donetsk
Poltava
Crimea

Altai (but see the new thread):

Donestk - can go Ukrainian
Crimea - can go Ukrainian
Kaffa - can go Greek
Kerch - can go Greek

If it's the capital of H-V and it starts off surrounded by Ruthenian provinces, it may as well be Ruthenian itself. Poland would want to turn it back to Polish, but I'm not sure how often we want Hungary to get Polish culture.

Well, before 6.14 Hungary got Polish culture basically every game, unless Poland was eliminated prior to 1560. Now there is even less chance.

Yes, Poland will need to be able to convert Galicia to Polish, but Hungary too, if it has gained Polish culture.

Matty

 

[unmerged(31994)]

Wouldnt 'tartar' be more suitable than Altai? I'd also suggest making all provinces east of the Volga tartar and Muslim - would work I suppose.

 

[MattyG]

Wouldnt 'tartar' be more suitable than Altai? I'd also suggest making all provinces east of the Volga tartar and Muslim - would work I suppose.

I agree that we need to change all those provinces to sunni.

 

[unmerged(54720)]

Ukrainian provinces:

Podolia (convertable to Ruthenian)
Jedisan
Ukraina
Krementjug
Donetsk
Poltava
Crimea
Matty

i can suggest some more historical provinces:
Volynia(borders with Poland and Belarussia) with a political economical and moilitary center in Dubno and Lutsk(they changed from time to time)(bordered with lands of Poland,Lithuania borders,Chernigiv,Podolia(originaly called Podilia Podolia is russian interpretation of origianal name of region) and Halychyna with Poland)
Halychyna(bordred with Poland,Hungary, Bukov'yna,Volynia,Podolia)
Bukovyna(bordered with Huungary and Moldavia,Podolia,Halychyna now borders with Romania) Center in Chernivtsi
Chernigiv(bordered with lands of Novgorod Siversky and lands of Lithuania noe borders with Belarussia and Russia) center Cernigiv
Slobodgan Ukraine(now borders with russia)
Kyiv province(bordered with Chernigiv,Podolia,Zaporizhia and Slobodgan Ukraine) center in :wacko: Kyiv
also there was a hostorical province of Zaporizhia(bordered with Turkey(Osman) empire and lans of different tatar khans Podolia(Podilia),Kyiv and Slobodgan Ukraine)
this provinces are considered to exist in 1430(+/-5)-1750(+/-5)
then after russian conquered weak after endless wars with Poland and Osman Empire Ukrainian lands provinces were reorganised and renamed to include more territory.

 

[MattyG]

Thanks,

If I understand you correctly you are informing about the different countries in the area during the period. However, our alternative history mod sees different nations rise and fal.

If you are meaning the provinces themselves, we are not going to change the map, too much work.

If you mean the names of the provinces, then we can alter those.

Matty

 

[unmerged(33565)]

Playing a couple of games the only problem I have noticed with this new country is that it seems to take the kiev provance away from ukraine 75-85% of the time. This is an important provance for this country because of the large tax base it has (is in the mid teens I believe). This might be because its set as alliance leader, might want to look into that..