So, we know that Lux Invicta begins in 1066 (and ends sometime in the 1080s when the game freezes repeatedly... >.>), but say we could look into the future, expanding on some common trends we saw prior to the addition of Africa and India. Which countries generally rose or fell? Which countries, in your mind, will be the true successors of this alternate history? I've seen a lot of people say that Venice generally rose and became quite powerful, so I am curious what y'all think the world in 1166 would be dominated by. Who are the big dogs in your Headcanon?
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Well, Eastern Rome doesn't appear to be modeled in it, but it looks like it's suffering from something similar to post-Manzikertitus, with many portions of the Empire still supposed to be in it, but in a period of weak authority - a situation that apparently arose shortly before the game timeframe.
Conversely, the Roman Empire in Latium appears to be SPQR reborn and is trying to establish itself amongst hostile powers, and the Sacral Emperor in Aachen has had no authority for generations.
West Africa is an interesting location, although I haven't played much since RoI. The area is ripe for either a Neo-Punic West African Empire, or the various natives sacking that city and running up to Morocco. My favorite for that was the Mandigo, especially after my playthrough had the "Blood of a Stranger" event pop up.
Beyond that, it's just way too chaotic. The lack of full integration into the Roman Empires, cultures being more resistant to melting pots, the smaller and more resilient de-jure kingdoms... I'm just not certain. Much of Shaytana's ideas for guiding story (as I've read and interpreted) had a single character be the Restorer of Light, which is a theme among the Solar religions, especially the Solar Imperial state religion of the Eastern Roman Empire, which leads me to believe there's a focus there.
Wish my computer and engine was up to the task, would love to have the Sunset Invasion go off during it.
Believe, me, dude. I don't think many engines can do it. I've got 24 gigs of RAM and an 880 GeForce and I can't get past 1083.
I will note that the Sassanids tend to rise and become very powerful quite regularly and quickly (by 1080) unless they are ganged up on by three enemies at once. So I see a Persian-Rhomaion conflict in the near future. Would be fun to see an Angra-Mainyu Sassanid block going up against a Solar Emperor.
In Anatolia, I generally see an Isaurian block going toe to toe with the East Romans, or they get picked off by Pergamon and an Argead landing from Cyprus.
Surprisingly, I rarely see Dorotheos Argeadai make much of his clear potential. He usually attacks Epeirus or Rhomania, makes some early gains, gets drawn into a war defending his cousins in Alexandria and then stagnates. I've actually seen him dethroned before and demoted to count status by unruly vassals, which kind of fits his arrogant "all bark no bite" storyline.
Usually, Alexander of Rhomania seems to take the Imperial throne, possibly just due to proximity.
So, the early story I see, at least in the Eastern Mediterranean, is Alexander Julio-Argeadai marching into Constantinople, pushing out the Julians and marrying one of their daughters to cement his legitimacy. Dorotheos declares against this violation of the Imperial Throne (despite having similar desires, himself) and goes to war. Unfortunately, his men have been wasted fighting Christians in Epeirus and Muslims in Egypt. He is overthrown by his men when he tries to lead them on a suicidal campaign against the Emperor.
After Dorotheos retires to a life of farming exile, Alexander consolidates his power in Greece and absorbs Athens, Krete, and the Pelloponnesus. Across the Aegean, the Isaurians have consolidated and are his first true threat. Once they're dealt with, the new Sassanid empire awaits.
I will note that the Sassanids tend to rise and become very powerful quite regularly and quickly (by 1080) unless they are ganged up on by three enemies at once. So I see a Persian-Rhomaion conflict in the near future. Would be fun to see an Angra-Mainyu Sassanid block going up against a Solar Emperor.
In Anatolia, I generally see an Isaurian block going toe to toe with the East Romans, or they get picked off by Pergamon and an Argead landing from Cyprus.
Surprisingly, I rarely see Dorotheos Argeadai make much of his clear potential. He usually attacks Epeirus or Rhomania, makes some early gains, gets drawn into a war defending his cousins in Alexandria and then stagnates. I've actually seen him dethroned before and demoted to count status by unruly vassals, which kind of fits his arrogant "all bark no bite" storyline.
Usually, Alexander of Rhomania seems to take the Imperial throne, possibly just due to proximity.
So, the early story I see, at least in the Eastern Mediterranean, is Alexander Julio-Argeadai marching into Constantinople, pushing out the Julians and marrying one of their daughters to cement his legitimacy. Dorotheos declares against this violation of the Imperial Throne (despite having similar desires, himself) and goes to war. Unfortunately, his men have been wasted fighting Christians in Epeirus and Muslims in Egypt. He is overthrown by his men when he tries to lead them on a suicidal campaign against the Emperor.
After Dorotheos retires to a life of farming exile, Alexander consolidates his power in Greece and absorbs Athens, Krete, and the Pelloponnesus. Across the Aegean, the Isaurians have consolidated and are his first true threat. Once they're dealt with, the new Sassanid empire awaits.
I wonder what the Renaissance would look like. In Reality part of the movement involved a renewed interest in Ancient Roman and Greek culture. As I understand it the world of Lux still has one foot still firmly set in that past.
One foot set in the Past and one well into the Weird
The Renaissance wouldn't make sense in this period, I believe. Nothing really needs to rebirth (at least in this "known world", which is larger than in our real history). The "Renaissance effect" could happen ever so gradually as to appear invisible.
It kind of was in our world too. The Renaissance was gradual, and if you look at the XIII and XIVth Centuries in Italy and other parts of the Mediterranean, all roads lead to this cultural apex we now call Renaissance, but then was just another step. This was all halted by the Counter Reformation (as well as the Reformation when the country was excessively puritanical). Damn Trento!
Interesting question to which we do not have a clear answer (making the question all so more interesting!)
I would say that the period to which LI is the most similar is not the renaissance but late antiquity. Let's consider that late antiquity is characterized by:
- the end of classical world empires and the emergence of smaller political entities as the norm (with the notable exception of the Islamic Empire of course)
- the organization of, or emergence of, world religions competing for global supremacy
Add to this real-life late antiquity trends LI's specificities:
- strong resilience of cultures, religions and dynasties throughout centuries
- the importance of the solar theme
Combining these trends, if I were to design a EUIV start scenario, I would basically consolidate the most "promising" political entities giving each of them a stronger "national" territory, with fewer small religions but still some of the really old ones like Luwian represented by one of these more powerful states, with a clearer monotheist trend for all of them. So you should have a strong Arian Carthage; a strong Ballist entity in the levent.
Nothing would prevent the progress of sciences like we experienced during the late medieval / renaissance era, but not presented as a re-discovery of knowledge from the antiquity as was the case IRL. Also nothing would make it a more powerful trend in Western Europe. In fact I would, very personnaly, make the Hellenistic States of Central Asia and the mix Iranian-Greek world, at the connection between China and the western world, the centre of technological progress. The Magellan of this world would depart from the Persian Gulf.
I would say that the period to which LI is the most similar is not the renaissance but late antiquity. Let's consider that late antiquity is characterized by:
- the end of classical world empires and the emergence of smaller political entities as the norm (with the notable exception of the Islamic Empire of course)
- the organization of, or emergence of, world religions competing for global supremacy
Add to this real-life late antiquity trends LI's specificities:
- strong resilience of cultures, religions and dynasties throughout centuries
- the importance of the solar theme
Combining these trends, if I were to design a EUIV start scenario, I would basically consolidate the most "promising" political entities giving each of them a stronger "national" territory, with fewer small religions but still some of the really old ones like Luwian represented by one of these more powerful states, with a clearer monotheist trend for all of them. So you should have a strong Arian Carthage; a strong Ballist entity in the levent.
Nothing would prevent the progress of sciences like we experienced during the late medieval / renaissance era, but not presented as a re-discovery of knowledge from the antiquity as was the case IRL. Also nothing would make it a more powerful trend in Western Europe. In fact I would, very personnaly, make the Hellenistic States of Central Asia and the mix Iranian-Greek world, at the connection between China and the western world, the centre of technological progress. The Magellan of this world would depart from the Persian Gulf.
I have wondered if technological progress would proceed at the same pace as the real world or be slowed down by all the fragmentation and diversity, It also seems like some of the religions will have trouble as time goes on although I can't point out which ones from the top of my head.
Sol Imperial would definitely have a hard time once it's the Sun is discovered to be a giant ball of burning gas and not a god.
^^ Like that's ever stopped a religion...
From my late 1090s game with Kush (which has a very strong position if you take opportunities early - I united the de-jure Empire plus Aegyptus with my first ruler), the Huns are rampaging, but mostly eastwards (they haven't yet attacked Bosphoran Cimmeria, which is also doing well), the Sarmato-Brythons in Britain are hanging by a thread, and the Germanic religious factions have the advantage in both England and Scotland, the Genoans and I think Valencians (Mithraic republic in Spain) are expanding, a couple of heresy changes, not as many as I thought. The two Jupiterite factions are doing well, but even more interestingly, Cypriots are expanding in a number of places. Palmyra stood its ground and expanded, and so did one of the Kurdish factions. Ghazi Islam is mostly dead, and the Gurzili guys are doing well. One interesting recent development was that the Carthaginian state (quite consolidated) now has a Sunni ruler, and Sunni claimants to the throne. Spain, apart from the east is static, and there have been some interesting mutations of ruler religions in the far north-east (Voipel'ean gobbling up Njola territory, and Ak-Koyashi taking Voipe'ean). Sindhia, as usual, is big, and Dionisyans are gaining ground in Tanzania/Madagascar. In East Africa, the Phoenician faction has expanded a lot. Another thing of note is that SPQR has done nothing, in fact Central Italy is static. Zoroastrian Persia is quite strong, and a unified Bon Tibet as well (large army too).
From my late 1090s game with Kush (which has a very strong position if you take opportunities early - I united the de-jure Empire plus Aegyptus with my first ruler), the Huns are rampaging, but mostly eastwards (they haven't yet attacked Bosphoran Cimmeria, which is also doing well), the Sarmato-Brythons in Britain are hanging by a thread, and the Germanic religious factions have the advantage in both England and Scotland, the Genoans and I think Valencians (Mithraic republic in Spain) are expanding, a couple of heresy changes, not as many as I thought. The two Jupiterite factions are doing well, but even more interestingly, Cypriots are expanding in a number of places. Palmyra stood its ground and expanded, and so did one of the Kurdish factions. Ghazi Islam is mostly dead, and the Gurzili guys are doing well. One interesting recent development was that the Carthaginian state (quite consolidated) now has a Sunni ruler, and Sunni claimants to the throne. Spain, apart from the east is static, and there have been some interesting mutations of ruler religions in the far north-east (Voipel'ean gobbling up Njola territory, and Ak-Koyashi taking Voipe'ean). Sindhia, as usual, is big, and Dionisyans are gaining ground in Tanzania/Madagascar. In East Africa, the Phoenician faction has expanded a lot. Another thing of note is that SPQR has done nothing, in fact Central Italy is static. Zoroastrian Persia is quite strong, and a unified Bon Tibet as well (large army too).
Regarding the Renaissance question... There's that old joke that had Rome never fallen, Columbus would have taken a ship to the moon instead of the Americas. I don't think that's the case.
The Romans were advanced, of course, and peerless engineers, but real progress is a result of competition. The Romans stagnated by the end, and it's no surprise that "barbarians" were producing better quality swords and war-time technology, like the stirrup.
In my head canon, the longevity of the classical empires would probably lead to greater stagnation. Sure, the Middle/Dark Ages didn't have much "classical thinking" as we might imagine it, but it did produce the University.
The Romans were advanced, of course, and peerless engineers, but real progress is a result of competition. The Romans stagnated by the end, and it's no surprise that "barbarians" were producing better quality swords and war-time technology, like the stirrup.
In my head canon, the longevity of the classical empires would probably lead to greater stagnation. Sure, the Middle/Dark Ages didn't have much "classical thinking" as we might imagine it, but it did produce the University.
Reflecting on this... From a economic history point of view, the early Middle Ages saw an impressive rise in productivity through an "energy revolution" (wind, water and animal energy, instead of predominantly human energy in antiquity). Some say this potential was blocked in Roman times, not due to the unavailability of technologies, but due to the relative cheapness of labour caused by slavery and large latifundia. The multiplication of windmills and watermills + new agricultural tools was a sort of industrial revolution that took place at the end of the "dark ages". In China, the huge density means that labour was always abundant, therefore cheap, creating little incentives for the use of non-human energy.
Back to the topic, this increase in the use of non-human energy is a first step towards a long process resulting in the modern industrial revolution, which needed a break from economic models of the antiquity, and favoured by rural fragmentation. That could potentially strive in some "Barbarian" areas of LI...
Back to the topic, this increase in the use of non-human energy is a first step towards a long process resulting in the modern industrial revolution, which needed a break from economic models of the antiquity, and favoured by rural fragmentation. That could potentially strive in some "Barbarian" areas of LI...
Well I've always felt Lux Invicta was a ripe environment for the Sunset Invasion. A backwards, slave-based Europe, stagnant due to a Roman Empire that never truly fell. The decadent Sun-Emperors are dethroned (perhaps by a Barbarian?) and this barbaric King of Constantinople, characterized as Sol Invictus returned, must fight off the Sunset invaders?
Am I the only one who has fantasied with a Hellenstic world without Rome in which technology steamrolls onwards (literally) turning the year 800 into a Greek-fest of exploration, silk-roading and steampunk-ing? Some sort of Leonardos Nikator, the Genius from Antioch?
Steam powered rotatory sarissas, anyone?
Steam powered rotatory sarissas, anyone?
Seemingly so. Lol.
Don't get me wrong, if there were fifty Hierons of Alexandria, spaced throughout the centuries, I'd be right with you. But there's only one.
Don't get me wrong, if there were fifty Hierons of Alexandria, spaced throughout the centuries, I'd be right with you. But there's only one.
Somebody need to take into account the promised invasion from Helleno-China, for fun purposes.
I've noticed after several campaigns lasting until 1200 that the lughite celts (picts, scots) of britannia eventual become powerful enough to take much of northern france, however they rarely consolidate much territory in britannia outisde their de jure areas. This doesn't happen, however, if the republic of Ulaid becomes a major player. I've seen Ulaid take control of the entirety of ireland and more than half of britain on one occasion, making Forn Sithr the dominant religion of the isles.
More often than not I've seen Barcelona become the dominant power in Hispania. But it never really breaks outside the peninsula.
9/10 playthroughs the Basileon Rhomaion outlasts the SPQR. The SQPR often gets eliminated by Pisa or Neapolis early on.
really though the only independent states ive seen grow to enormous power on almost all playthroughs are the fatimids and the sassanids
More often than not I've seen Barcelona become the dominant power in Hispania. But it never really breaks outside the peninsula.
9/10 playthroughs the Basileon Rhomaion outlasts the SPQR. The SQPR often gets eliminated by Pisa or Neapolis early on.
really though the only independent states ive seen grow to enormous power on almost all playthroughs are the fatimids and the sassanids
gameplay wise, previously a blob called Dacia is a pretty consistent sight across a number of playthroughs in the past (before the Africa/India expansions), much to Darkgamma's delight...
My personal theory is that Dacia was OP on purpose because Shaytana was at least partly Romanian. I can't blame him though, I'd also make Aragon horribly overpowered, but just because the world must know the glory of Jota dancing.
I though he was Greek given all the Hellenic stronk going on in Lux Invicta and it's wide reaching legacy.
He was partly from Romania, partly from somewhere else in the Balkans. He mentioned having an Orthodox grandparent, and all the Romanians I know are Catholic or at least of Catholic upbringing, so I'd bet he was partly Greek as well.