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Health Bars - Are they going to get rid of health bars?

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Rabidnid I would prefer to just see tanks die if they are penetrated and blown straight away and be disabled if a penetration did not entirely kill them. Remember that a lot of misses and deflections would happen first and that ww2 tanks either did not have stabalizers for shooting on the move or were disabled by their crews who had them late war because they either did not work or they did not trust them.
 
Rabidnid said:
So using the Red Dragon, model, there is a threshhold below which a round cannot penetrate the tank at all and the KE weapon will not fire on the target. Once the penetration exceeds the threshold the gun can fire causing crits and adding aggregate damage to the target'e health bar. This can represent partial penetrations, spalling or things falling off the inside of the tank. Range, weather, angle of impact, intermediate barriers, barrel wear and faults in the construction of the projectile or armour call all lead to variations in the penetration capabilities of a round. Having a health bar that reflects that it took 1 hit or 10 hits to finally kill the tank is quite reasonable, especially with all 10 hits having the potential of causing crits.

So basically no, the health bar is a great idea and is fine as is. In the interest of keeping the system specs down I would be happy with a repeat of the Red Dragon damage model.
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This discussion seems to be more about Armour (and there is a thread about that already), so it is pointless to talk about it in two places at once.

Secondly, I would like to say, that I would like to see more Close Combat type of HP for Infantry and tanks. Therfore a rifleman would get wounded or killed if he gets hit, and the same for tanks which after beeing penetrated would most likely bail or loose the crew.

I realy dislike how infantry was portrayed in Wargame. It was overly simplified and had very limited, usually defensive, use on the battlefield, making them essentially the slowest and cheapest vehicles of the game, instead of infantry as it should have been.

I realy hope it won't be like Wargame in that respect. Wargame's infantry sux. And even if it is ok for Wargame, because of the mechanised nature of the game, during WW2 Infantry will be the backbone of everything we do. EVERYTHING! Therfore it must be more complex than what we had in Wargame.

I am against overlysimplified HP of the Wargame serries.
 
The thing about tank combat in ww2 is that it was pretty much entirely about who acquired and shot who first because even non-penetrating hits were often quite damaging and in real life it's very possible to shoot without being seen.

The tanks themselves mattered less than who shot who first.

Also, penetrating hits were often less lethal than people care to admit. Most tanks that were penetrated by enemy fire often were able to be abandoned by the crew, recovered, and repaired.
 
The other thing about ww2 were the ranges that good hits were achieved at was fairly low.
 
Solty said:
I realy dislike how infantry was portrayed in Wargame. It was overly simplified and had very limited, usually defensive, use on the battlefield, making them essentially the slowest and cheapest vehicles of the game, instead of infantry as it should have been.

I realy hope it won't be like Wargame in that respect. Wargame's infantry sux. And even if it is ok for Wargame, because of the mechanised nature of the game, during WW2 Infantry will be the backbone of everything we do. EVERYTHING! Therfore it must be more complex than what we had in Wargame.

I am against overlysimplified HP of the Wargame serries.
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Agreed, infantry need more complex behaviour than the way they are modelled in RD. The ability to use cover and go prone at least, going pinned rather than stunned. There is a lot that could be done.
 
Soyaman said:
I think what Hawk is trying to get across is that each "hit" will damage the tank somehow. Whether it be shedding the armor ever so slightly or deafening the crew inside.
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Don't forget spalling. All those little flakes and chunks of metal killing the crew at high speed. It's why modern tanks and kevlar lining the inside, It's to protect against spalling. And you don't even have to penetrate to have spalling, just hit with enough force or enough repeated force.
 
Alpha2518 said:
Don't forget spalling. All those little flakes and chunks of metal killing the crew at high speed. It's why modern tanks and kevlar lining the inside, It's to protect against spalling. And you don't even have to penetrate to have spalling, just hit with enough force or enough repeated force.
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That one effect they almost never take into account in games.
 
Many games actually simulate armor damage like you guys are talking about. Health bars have always been nonsensical and create less realistic gameplay. It's a old D&D mechanic. It's not really impressive or innovative. You use health bars if you can't accurately portray reality within a game system/you are attempt to simulate certain aspects..which is fine but don't go defending it as some good mechanic. It's a played out one and very much a meme.

As for this game I hope they do try and give some accuracy with tanks and tank guns. It's possible as many games have done it but it all depends on how they are doing armor. We have little to no details on the game, a health bar might make total sense with how the game plays or it might make zero sense. For a world war 2 game it's much better to do a non-health bar system simply because world war 2 armor and guns have been tested and information is readily available to those who want it. Hopefully they put it in!

We'll see what kinda game they are making and what the goals are for the game. At the moment we know little to nothing all of this is purely speculation about what we prefer in a game.
 
Health bars are a simplification of reality, it can represent the total sum of all the factors involved including luck and chance. Nearly every game that doesn't use health bars falls short of including the variables needed to portray reality.
 
Wrong. Entirely wrong. Those are all calculated within a good system you don't need the health bar for anything but reality defying and keeping units unrealistically alive.

In fact luck and chance are totally ignored by the block stat. It protects from that and removes that not adds to it
 
War Thunder, Men of War, Theatre of War, Graviteam tactics mius front
All of these accurately portrayed armor and represented luck and chance far better then any health bar system I've played because luck and chance actually existed in these games. It wasn't predetermined what you needed to do to kill a unit you only had ideas of how to take it out. Destroying units wasn't assured like in HP games. HP gives players knowledge on what to do and when you can destroy a enemy and takes luck and chance outta the equation. In games like these that's less true. It's far more realistic.

Realism doesn't always mean a better game. It depends on the system they are attempting to make. This is just my preference. Systems can make sense with HP but it's not more realistic.
 
GermanPower said:
War Thunder, Men of War, Theatre of War, Graviteam tactics mius front
All of these accurately portrayed armor and represented luck and chance far better then any health bar system I've played because luck and chance actually existed in these games. It wasn't predetermined what you needed to do to kill a unit you only had ideas of how to take it out. Destroying units wasn't assured like in HP games. HP gives players knowledge on what to do and when you can destroy a enemy and takes luck and chance outta the equation. In games like these that's less true. It's far more realistic.

Realism doesn't always mean a better game. It depends on the system they are attempting to make. This is just my preference. Systems can make sense with HP but it's not more realistic.
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Well War thunder does not take into account armour integrity neither does Men of War, nor do they take into effect non-penetrating spall, nor have a realistic depiction of shock waves effect on crew.

Both are good examples of what i mentioned earlier, 5 million 45mm hits would do zero damage to a Tiger tank in Men of War and War Thunder. And that is extremely unrealistic. So this model is no more realistic than a health bar, it simply has other down sides.
 
77Hawk77 said:
Well War thunder does not take into account armour integrity neither does Men of War, nor do they take into effect non-penetrating spall, nor have a realistic depiction of shock waves effect on crew.

Both are good examples of what i mentioned earlier, 5 million 45mm hits would do zero damage to a Tiger tank in Men of War and War Thunder. And that is extremely unrealistic. So this model is no more realistic than a health bar, it simply has other down sides.
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Yes it does? Base game men of war doesn't but plenty of mods do. War Thunder also takes that into account? You just don't see it directly. Sure war thunder isn't perfectly realistic but it's far more then health bars.

No that's a terrible example. 5 million hits? YES THAT HAPPENS IN COMBAT ALL THE TIME. These are non-arguments..you are saying it's not perfectly realistic their fore its just as bad as health bars. You aren't actually proving anything just video games aren't reality? G-ggood call?

Believe it or not their are no health bars in real life! But there are penetration values and real damage to crews from said penetration! Their aren't simply magical health bars that protect from destruction. Health bars may have use to represent armor strength but in a very limited manner. A primary focus on War Thunder or Men of war makes a much more realistic game.

Edit: It seems less like you want a health bar and more like a armor integrity percentage. I'm all for adding more realism into the game.
(Games have done this!!!)
 
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Regarding the hitpoint system in Wargame; there was no engine restricted rule that said, for instance, each AP above 1 overmatching target armor would only do one more damage. You could in theory (and practice from mods) edit the tables that that existed for damage types to react however you wanted versus whatever level of armor you wanted.

You could make it so beating armor by whatever amount inflicted a full kill, for instance. It probably was the most logical way to model mission kills, in fact.

For that matter, its absolutely doable (in terms of engine capabilities) to edit critical effects to model things like spall liners, ammo protection/wet racks, and even the differences in vehicle maneuverability in different terrain types based on ground pressure.

Hell imagine the effects of criticals for infantry. Panzershrek gunner down, causing a brief downtime for that weapon. Failure to clear backblast from a poorly trained unit leading to self suppression or a casualty upon firing an AT weapon.

Just because these things weren't done in previous titles doesn't necessarily mean they weren't doable. And the direction it seems Eugen is heading has me extremely excited about that :)

I'm not speaking from any position of authority or information of course regarding Eugens plans. Just saying that the engine can do some really really cool shit if allowed to flex its muscles a bit!
 
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I've always thought the hit point system was made in Wargame because lack of information on actual performance and how armor is very much layered and little is know to exactly how it performs against shells to the front. That's not a issue in a World War 2 game. You have plenty of data to make a very realistic game. They may retain health points which is whatever but they could make a very realistic and dynamic system for the game. I'll have to see how the do the system before I say anything about the game.
 
GermanPower said:
Yes it does? Base game men of war doesn't but plenty of mods do. War Thunder also takes that into account? You just don't see it directly. Sure war thunder isn't perfectly realistic but it's far more then health bars.

No that's a terrible example. 5 million hits? YES THAT HAPPENS IN COMBAT ALL THE TIME. These are non-arguments..you are saying it's not perfectly realistic their fore its just as bad as health bars. You aren't actually proving anything just video games aren't reality? G-ggood call?

Believe it or not their are no health bars in real life! But there are penetration values and real damage to crews from said penetration! Their aren't simply magical health bars that protect from destruction. Health bars may have use to represent armor strength but in a very limited manner. A primary focus on War Thunder or Men of war makes a much more realistic game.

Edit: It seems less like you want a health bar and more like a armor integrity percentage. I'm all for adding more realism into the game.
(Games have done this!!!)
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Calm down, yes I'd like armour integrity as a health bar, and the possibility to de-crew vehicles, and what not. My main focus is that what was possible in real life should be possible in game. 5 million hits on one tank did not happen no. But the point you missed there is that men of war and war thunder allows for infinite number of non-penetrating hits to be absorbed with no effect.

It's not like I want Starcraft like health bars if that's what you thought, I am all for realism, but Men of War and War Thunder perpetuates myths and memes around penetration and armour tables which did not so much reflect reality.
 
77Hawk77 said:
Calm down, yes I'd like armour integrity as a health bar, and the possibility to de-crew vehicles, and what not. My main focus is that what was possible in real life should be possible in game. 5 million hits on one tank did not happen no. But the point you missed there is that men of war and war thunder allows for infinite number of non-penetrating hits to be absorbed with no effect.

It's not like I want Starcraft like health bars if that's what you thought, I am all for realism, but Men of War and War Thunder perpetuates myths and memes around penetration and armour tables which did not so much reflect reality.
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I'd like you to calm down actually. You claim you are upset about myths while at the same time being upset over health bars being called as nonsense? That's a bit ridiculous.

Also I understood the point I just knew how irrelevant it was. The games don't play long duration shell bouncing against one another. The games progresses with everything being able to destroy each other. Making armor wear fairly irrelevant unless you are doing some sort of sandbox gameplay. No games perfect but this one is far better off then most and far better then health bars. Could their be more put into armor? Would it be smart to add in armor cracking, piercing, etc? Yes..but guess what you keep all the other realistic existing parts. You don't need to add in a general health bar. The health bar doesn't even come into play in this discussion. You seem to just want more realism work done on armor not health bars, lol.
 
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