Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Status
Nice!
I don't particularly mind that actually. If a council is what is most likely, which it is IMO, I'd go for it. I'd feel a bit weird to having quite fictitional figures in there instead. Fictitional as in being the Lord of Zottegem is still quite sommink else than being Count of Flanders. It's hard enough at times to get some consistency when it actually happened (see the Holland monarch files), let alone when wandering on the "what if" trail.
Pheeew. There u ask sommink
The odd important figure here and there is quite easy to find but getting an integrated full monarch line is sommink else.
If anything I was thinking in EU terms of making influential people with a military history or so leaders and other council members for example ministers (dunno how it works exactly in EU2).
The shit thing with historically not independant countries and esp Flanders with its changing fortunes with rulers, annexations and the like (Burgundian, Spanish, Dutch, French, Austrian, both legal and not) is u don't really have a basis, which troubles me somewhat. I don't know about Ireland and if that family is actually good, great or quite fantasy but when asked that question about Flanders, I am in serious doubt and I haven't even really looked. I quite liked "Tribal Chiefs" for Ireland in EU1.
Let's take for example Egmont and Hoorn (some of the best examples for monarchs based on counts, I guess, as they were noblemen, highly influential, top of the Netherlands decision panel and governors of several regions in the south).
Together with Willem the Silent 3 of the most influential nobles of the Netherlands who all opposed Filips II's policies. However Egmont and Hoorn being beheaded by Alba after an irregular trial and their assets being confiscated does not really put them in the same league as Willem who managed to get away from Alba and carry on to be the founder of the republic. Those beheadings just about sparked the outbreak of the revolution but that carried on without those two most influential Flemish noblemen (death has that effect ).
So, do u mean to take the likes of Egmont and Hoorn and use them as rulers? However after being beheaded, it gets somewhat harder. Go with family for a line ? What if they don't get to 1820 ? Flanders being reconquered and subdued by Farnese with just about every influential Flemish protestant fleeing north and setting up camp there and working for the Republic like e.g. Plancius, makes it quite hard IMO to get that independent Flanders rulers feel. Do u take the fled Flemish into consideration, which were numerous (quite the braindrain really) ? After all would they have fled if Flanders was independent ? For example the national anthem of Holland was writen by a Flemish person who served under Willem of Oranje. But then what about supporters of the Spanish, like Granvelle, or leaders of the Secret Council ?
There was a Calvinist Republic in Gent for a while. U could dig up the leaders there but the trouble is that it didn't last so after being subdued it's hard to find more.
Then after the end of the revolt with the North independent u have quite a while where u will be hardpressed to find such figures. Annexed as Flanders was, elimination of revolters and with the migration to the north.
Then under Austria others kinda pop up. And so on. If u combine a list of those u will get a very heterogenous list of various backgrounds.
If in and up and running, that could be quite nice I'm speculating here but if u are considering this for Flanders, it's a good gamble to assume Holland will get sommink like that too as they historically actually did try to do so and their history is well documented?
Oh, u got that one right
Is it worth it though ? Does Flanders deserve that much attention (as it could get complicated, very hypothetical and it might not even pop up), is the effort proportional to the gain ? Even I wonder and I quite like it being there (my feeling there are too much leaders for some nations in EU1 might explain that somewhat)
However, don't get me wrong, I want Flanders to be there and be fun to play with and if possible with the necessary amount of "extras". I just felt it to be more plausible (IMO that is, historically, also research wise) to go with the council for rulers and use the big names as leaders or ministers (which for councils could be considered as leading person, whatever)
Somewhat related a question about the Flemish makeup. I'd feel it having to be quite close to the Dutch one. They were part of the same revolt (though being located more to the south than the rest was a bit of a structural problem). Not quite the same but also geared towards commerce and colonisation for example. Esp with its location, history and the fact they were quite active in Dutch exploration and even had their own colonies under Austria after bouncing back from the war and repressive measures. Though lacking obvious military leaders, explorers and the like, Flanders was the nation of Mercator, Plancius and the like.
P.S. Sorry if I am redundant at times, I don't know how familiar u are with Flemish/Dutch history.
P.P.S. I have some indiscrete questions (no, not that ) which I sent a PM about. If u care to, want to, can, are allowed to even answer, I'd be most grateful
Nice!
I don't particularly mind that actually. If a council is what is most likely, which it is IMO, I'd go for it. I'd feel a bit weird to having quite fictitional figures in there instead. Fictitional as in being the Lord of Zottegem is still quite sommink else than being Count of Flanders. It's hard enough at times to get some consistency when it actually happened (see the Holland monarch files), let alone when wandering on the "what if" trail.
Pheeew. There u ask sommink
The odd important figure here and there is quite easy to find but getting an integrated full monarch line is sommink else. If anything I was thinking in EU terms of making influential people with a military history or so leaders and other council members for example ministers (dunno how it works exactly in EU2).
The shit thing with historically not independant countries and esp Flanders with its changing fortunes with rulers, annexations and the like (Burgundian, Spanish, Dutch, French, Austrian, both legal and not) is u don't really have a basis, which troubles me somewhat. I don't know about Ireland and if that family is actually good, great or quite fantasy but when asked that question about Flanders, I am in serious doubt and I haven't even really looked. I quite liked "Tribal Chiefs" for Ireland in EU1.
Let's take for example Egmont and Hoorn (some of the best examples for monarchs based on counts, I guess, as they were noblemen, highly influential, top of the Netherlands decision panel and governors of several regions in the south).
Together with Willem the Silent 3 of the most influential nobles of the Netherlands who all opposed Filips II's policies. However Egmont and Hoorn being beheaded by Alba after an irregular trial and their assets being confiscated does not really put them in the same league as Willem who managed to get away from Alba and carry on to be the founder of the republic. Those beheadings just about sparked the outbreak of the revolution but that carried on without those two most influential Flemish noblemen (death has that effect
). So, do u mean to take the likes of Egmont and Hoorn and use them as rulers? However after being beheaded, it gets somewhat harder. Go with family for a line ? What if they don't get to 1820 ? Flanders being reconquered and subdued by Farnese with just about every influential Flemish protestant fleeing north and setting up camp there and working for the Republic like e.g. Plancius, makes it quite hard IMO to get that independent Flanders rulers feel. Do u take the fled Flemish into consideration, which were numerous (quite the braindrain really) ? After all would they have fled if Flanders was independent ? For example the national anthem of Holland was writen by a Flemish person who served under Willem of Oranje. But then what about supporters of the Spanish, like Granvelle, or leaders of the Secret Council ?
There was a Calvinist Republic in Gent for a while. U could dig up the leaders there but the trouble is that it didn't last so after being subdued it's hard to find more.
Then after the end of the revolt with the North independent u have quite a while where u will be hardpressed to find such figures. Annexed as Flanders was, elimination of revolters and with the migration to the north.
Then under Austria others kinda pop up. And so on. If u combine a list of those u will get a very heterogenous list of various backgrounds.
If in and up and running, that could be quite nice
I'm speculating here but if u are considering this for Flanders, it's a good gamble to assume Holland will get sommink like that too as they historically actually did try to do so and their history is well documented?Originally posted by Greven
More work for both of us, but more fun in the end...
Oh, u got that one right
Is it worth it though ? Does Flanders deserve that much attention (as it could get complicated, very hypothetical and it might not even pop up), is the effort proportional to the gain ? Even I wonder and I quite like it being there
(my feeling there are too much leaders for some nations in EU1 might explain that somewhat)However, don't get me wrong, I want Flanders to be there and be fun to play with and if possible with the necessary amount of "extras". I just felt it to be more plausible (IMO that is, historically, also research wise) to go with the council for rulers and use the big names as leaders or ministers (which for councils could be considered as leading person, whatever)
Somewhat related a question about the Flemish makeup. I'd feel it having to be quite close to the Dutch one. They were part of the same revolt (though being located more to the south than the rest was a bit of a structural problem). Not quite the same but also geared towards commerce and colonisation for example. Esp with its location, history and the fact they were quite active in Dutch exploration and even had their own colonies under Austria after bouncing back from the war and repressive measures. Though lacking obvious military leaders, explorers and the like, Flanders was the nation of Mercator, Plancius and the like.
P.S. Sorry if I am redundant at times, I don't know how familiar u are with Flemish/Dutch history.
P.P.S. I have some indiscrete questions (no, not that
) which I sent a PM about. If u care to, want to, can, are allowed to even answer, I'd be most grateful 
