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BiB
Well i was reading in my Oxford history of medieval europe about the royal lines that id just looked at, and it expands on the Valois Dukes income base, which came from the lowlands that by Phillip the good was acounted 70% of their income, and i wonderd if the church was also also as wealthy and powerful, or was the immense wealth from the low lands going to the Dukes only.
It makes the point in the book that without the textile, maritime commerce,banking houses of the lowlands burgundy might never have achieved its dominance in NW Europe.
Just intrested to know if you have anything that bears on this.
Hannibal
Well i was reading in my Oxford history of medieval europe about the royal lines that id just looked at, and it expands on the Valois Dukes income base, which came from the lowlands that by Phillip the good was acounted 70% of their income, and i wonderd if the church was also also as wealthy and powerful, or was the immense wealth from the low lands going to the Dukes only.
It makes the point in the book that without the textile, maritime commerce,banking houses of the lowlands burgundy might never have achieved its dominance in NW Europe.
Just intrested to know if you have anything that bears on this.
Hannibal
Status
Well, we desperately needed complete lists for some of the old minors so we now have:
Albania
Aragon
Athens (Duchy of)
Auvergne
Bremen
Brittany
Aquitaine
Austria
Bourbonnais
Burgundy
Byzantine Empire
Castille
Cyprus
England
France
French Protestants
French Ultra-Catholics
Geldre
Hainaut
Lithuania
Lorraine
Luxembourg
Magdeburg
Mainz
Mecklenburg
Munster
Novgorod
Oldenburg
Orleans
Pomerania
Provence (Very short list.
)
Ryazan
Savoy
Scotland
Serbia
Spain
Poland
Timurid Empire
Trebizond
Turkey
USA
Well, we desperately needed complete lists for some of the old minors so we now have:
Albania
Aragon
Athens (Duchy of)
Auvergne
Bremen
Brittany
Aquitaine
Austria
Bourbonnais
Burgundy
Byzantine Empire
Castille
Cyprus
England
France
French Protestants
French Ultra-Catholics
Geldre
Hainaut
Lithuania
Lorraine
Luxembourg
Magdeburg
Mainz
Mecklenburg
Munster
Novgorod
Oldenburg
Orleans
Pomerania
Provence (Very short list.
)Ryazan
Savoy
Scotland
Serbia
Spain
Poland
Timurid Empire
Trebizond
Turkey
USA
Hey Doomie,
I mailed Greven and Gen Suvorov the list for Kashmir and Delhi Sultanate, since it's not on your list, does it mean you don't have it?
I mailed Greven and Gen Suvorov the list for Kashmir and Delhi Sultanate, since it's not on your list, does it mean you don't have it?
U referred to Liège earlier on but that was actually a separate entity, a prince-bisphoric, which was quite important in many ways but apart from a few small stretches always was independent and thus not a base for anything when u consider wealth or the like of the Burgundians/Habsburgs (though I can imagine it being a source of wealth for the church seeing it is a bisphoric
).Judging by the amount of beautiful churches and art in there around these areas I wouldn't call the church poor
But Flanders in particular, the church had no real political power unlike many other areas. It was the count against the cities. Obviously the church often sided with the count for example and they all were good christians Wealthy, xure, powerful, nah (compared to other places at that time, compared to now they obviously were powerful)As is he case in EU, owning the Netherlands is a very good thing to do for any nation so also for the Burgundian dukes. But the Duke did not have the rights to levy taxes for example without the permissions of the Leden van Vlaanderen (cities) which made them quite powerful. So the dukes had an ongoing struggle to expand their power base and decrease the cities'. Church does not play more than a supporting role. As does nobility really. The Habsburgs eventually won with the Reconquista by Farnese of Flanders. The North got away.
"It makes the point in the book that without the textile, maritime commerce,banking houses of the lowlands burgundy might never have achieved its dominance in NW Europe."
Well, that seems quite obvious to me that all this is quite helpful in establishing a dominant position in a region esp coupled with owning just about every territory in said region
But that was what u got with Flanders and others. Some of the richest provinces in Europe, agriculturally, economically and so on. If the Dukes of Burgundy had been limited to just Burgundy they wouldn't be the Dukes we know today. Just a smal little French vassal yes-man most likely.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Status
Originally posted by BiB
<Before I set of and do work in vain is the example of Egmont and Hoorn I <gave the type of person u are looking for ? They're like the Oranjes of the <south so I take it they are ? If so I was wondering how to continue upon <them ? Go for relatives all the way ? Really a family dynasty ?
Go for the Egmonts or Horns... Yes relative...so it looks like a dynasty.
<Or go with a noblemen family that was supportive of the Habsburg and <could act as dynasty after being set free voluntarily?
No
<The mayoral thingies are somewhat harder as u don't have the "dynasty" <idea though if u don't mind overly fantasy though one family really made a <name for itself in the 14th century as Flemish city power leaders and we <could draw upon those?
These should not be family, but instead much like the US.Presidents. You have to imagine and make up some down the road.
<And I didn't mean the "not worth it" as what it might be perceived at but <more in regards to the getting a whole line of persons when there are spans <with lots of persons (during the revolt e.g.) and other periods with hardly a <name worth mentioning as a system.
That's unfortenantely punches we have to take. It is the same thing with all 'could-been' states.
<While on the subject of the Netherlands anyway, will there be any event <relating to Filips II ceding the Netherlands to the Archdukes, Albrecht and <Isabella as Felipe III never ruled the Netherlands ?
maybe, maybe not
/Greven
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BiB
Thanks, as i looked at the monarch lists it struck me i dont know enough about half of what i was looking at and have started to read up somewhat. Not really my period, but it all ads to the fun of the game to know what went on historicly.
Leden van Vlaanderen permision for tax, would that be on a city by city basis, or through the guilds speaking for all towns?.
Hannibal
Thanks, as i looked at the monarch lists it struck me i dont know enough about half of what i was looking at and have started to read up somewhat. Not really my period, but it all ads to the fun of the game to know what went on historicly.
Leden van Vlaanderen permision for tax, would that be on a city by city basis, or through the guilds speaking for all towns?.
Hannibal
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Status
Originally posted by Greven
Originally posted by BiB
<Before I set of and do work in vain is the example of Egmont and Hoorn I <gave the type of person u are looking for ? They're like the Oranjes of the <south so I take it they are ? If so I was wondering how to continue upon <them ? Go for relatives all the way ? Really a family dynasty ?
Go for the Egmonts or Horns... Yes relative...so it looks like a dynasty.
<Or go with a noblemen family that was supportive of the Habsburg and <could act as dynasty after being set free voluntarily?
No
<The mayoral thingies are somewhat harder as u don't have the "dynasty" <idea though if u don't mind overly fantasy though one family really made a <name for itself in the 14th century as Flemish city power leaders and we <could draw upon those?
These should not be family, but instead much like the US.Presidents. You have to imagine and make up some down the road.
<And I didn't mean the "not worth it" as what it might be perceived at but <more in regards to the getting a whole line of persons when there are spans <with lots of persons (during the revolt e.g.) and other periods with hardly a <name worth mentioning as a system.
That's unfortenantely punches we have to take. It is the same thing with all 'could-been' states.
<While on the subject of the Netherlands anyway, will there be any event <relating to Filips II ceding the Netherlands to the Archdukes, Albrecht and <Isabella as Felipe III never ruled the Netherlands ?
maybe, maybe not
/Greven
Egmont and Hoorn it is then.
Fictitional mayors, eh ?
IS there any set time table for this? (apart from asap)
The cities fought it out between each other. They granted the Duke a certain amount for example, then they divided the load between each other and then in the cities they made xure they got their own share (if guilds were at a powerful time in the cities they evidently were influential in that). So the Duke negotiated with all cities at once (obviously there were backstabbings, going behind a particular city's back while advantaging another and many more of these kinda things)
All of these stages was accompanied by the traditional bickering and infighting of course
Taxes like these then often were levied by indirect taxes or special taxes for the occasion, personal rents and the like. Especially in time of war quick measures were needed (and weren't always taken before the duke granted some extra privileges to the cities for example)
The status post only comprises completed monarch files, not raw data. However, I do not have the data you mention, although Demetrios has given me a list of the rulers of Kashmir.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Status
No its ASAP.....
Until its finished there will be no events for Flanders.
/Greven
No its ASAP
.....Until its finished there will be no events for Flanders.
/Greven
Re: Status
Doomie, do you want full lists, or just 1419 - 1492 and 1792 - 1820?
I sent lists of most of the European states for those years to Gen. Survorov, I'll go ahead and forward them to you, unless you want me to send full lists (1419 - 1820), which, actually, won't really take too much extra time.
By the way did you impliment the huge number of regencies in Scotland during this time period? Every monarch during this era with the exception of James V was a minor when he or she took the throne, so there were a large number of regents, both good and bad...
Doomie, do you want full lists, or just 1419 - 1492 and 1792 - 1820?
I sent lists of most of the European states for those years to Gen. Survorov, I'll go ahead and forward them to you, unless you want me to send full lists (1419 - 1820), which, actually, won't really take too much extra time.
By the way did you impliment the huge number of regencies in Scotland during this time period? Every monarch during this era with the exception of James V was a minor when he or she took the throne, so there were a large number of regents, both good and bad...
Re: Re: Status
I will fix this in another way... Monarch was still monarch even if he did not hold his hands on the rudder... The Monarch IS the abstraction of his reign. So it will be incorporated in two ways...
1. The monarch values might be modified by me.
2. Events....(many different kinds.)
/Greven
I will fix this in another way... Monarch was still monarch even if he did not hold his hands on the rudder...
The Monarch IS the abstraction of his reign. So it will be incorporated in two ways...1. The monarch values might be modified by me.
2. Events....(many different kinds.)
/Greven
Flanders: military leaders
Here's what I came up with for the military leaders of Flanders:
GENERAL: Jan van COPPENHOLLE (?-1492): Flemish popular leader. Led the rebellion of Ghent against Maximilian of Austria in 1483-85 and 1488-92
ADMIRAL: Willem (William) of Croy (1458-1521): Flemish noble. Captain-general of the Spanish fleets in 1516. Played an important role in the surpression of the resistance against the succession of Charles V of Spain.
GENERAL Filips II of Croy (1496-1549): Flemish Noble. Fought as Captain-general of Charles V against Guelders.
GENERAL: Lamoraal van EGMOND (1522-1568). Flemish noble and military commander. Sympathised with the rebels but remained loyal to Spanish King Philip II. Won the battle of Grevelingen (1559). Beheaded when he tried to negociate in the name of the rebel lords with Philip II.
GENERAL Filips van Sint-Aldegonde NOIRCARMES (?-1574): Flemish noble and general: fought for the Spanish against the rebels.
GENERAL: Jan van Marnix van SINT-ALDEGONDE (1537-1567): Flemish noble and general: fought for the rebels against the Spanish.
ADMIRAL: Adrien de Berghes DOLHAIN (1535-1572) . Flemish noble. Lord of St-Winoksbergen. Led rebel fleets (watergeuzen) against the Spanish. Was later given supreme command of the fleets of the Dutch/Flemish rebels.
GENERAL: Karel (Charles) of Croy (1560-1612): Flemish Noble. Joined the rebels against Spain. Battled François of Anjou in Antwerp. Later defected to the Spanish.
GENERAL: Johan ’t Serclaes de TILLY (1599-1632): Flemish general. Fought the Turks in Hungary in the service of the Habsburgs. Became commander of the Catholic League. Won battles at White Mountain, Wimpfen, Hoechst and Lutter. Conquered Magdeburg but was beaten in Breitenfeld in 1631 by Gustaf Adolf of Sweeden. Beaten again at Leck and dued as a consequence of his wounds. Rating as general: very good. (I don’t know if he’s in the EU-armylist for Austria).
GENERAL: Jacques de FARIAUX (1627-1695): Flemish noble. Fought for the Spanish in the 80 Years War. Later fought for the Dutch Republic.
GENERAL: Jan Andries VAN DER MEERSCH (?): Flemish general. Served in the Austrian and French armies. Led the Flemish rebels against Austrian rule. Victorious in the battle of Turnhout (1789).
GENERAL: Domique VANDAMME (1770-1830): Flemish general. Served under Napoleon in most of his campaigns.
EXPLORER: Gerardus Mercator (real name: Geraard De Kremer) (1512-1594). One of the most important figures in the history of cartography.
EXPLORER: Petrus Plancius (real name: Petrus Plaetevoet) (1552-1622): reknowned cartographer and expert on the seas. Inspired the voyages of Hudson and Barentz.
CONQUISTADOR: Joos van Ghistel (1446-1525): undertook from 1481 to 1485 a long voyage in search for the lands of “Prester John”.
I can supply more names of "conquistadores", explorers, generals or admirals if necessary.
Bib will come up with the monarchs' list.
Here's what I came up with for the military leaders of Flanders:
GENERAL: Jan van COPPENHOLLE (?-1492): Flemish popular leader. Led the rebellion of Ghent against Maximilian of Austria in 1483-85 and 1488-92
ADMIRAL: Willem (William) of Croy (1458-1521): Flemish noble. Captain-general of the Spanish fleets in 1516. Played an important role in the surpression of the resistance against the succession of Charles V of Spain.
GENERAL Filips II of Croy (1496-1549): Flemish Noble. Fought as Captain-general of Charles V against Guelders.
GENERAL: Lamoraal van EGMOND (1522-1568). Flemish noble and military commander. Sympathised with the rebels but remained loyal to Spanish King Philip II. Won the battle of Grevelingen (1559). Beheaded when he tried to negociate in the name of the rebel lords with Philip II.
GENERAL Filips van Sint-Aldegonde NOIRCARMES (?-1574): Flemish noble and general: fought for the Spanish against the rebels.
GENERAL: Jan van Marnix van SINT-ALDEGONDE (1537-1567): Flemish noble and general: fought for the rebels against the Spanish.
ADMIRAL: Adrien de Berghes DOLHAIN (1535-1572) . Flemish noble. Lord of St-Winoksbergen. Led rebel fleets (watergeuzen) against the Spanish. Was later given supreme command of the fleets of the Dutch/Flemish rebels.
GENERAL: Karel (Charles) of Croy (1560-1612): Flemish Noble. Joined the rebels against Spain. Battled François of Anjou in Antwerp. Later defected to the Spanish.
GENERAL: Johan ’t Serclaes de TILLY (1599-1632): Flemish general. Fought the Turks in Hungary in the service of the Habsburgs. Became commander of the Catholic League. Won battles at White Mountain, Wimpfen, Hoechst and Lutter. Conquered Magdeburg but was beaten in Breitenfeld in 1631 by Gustaf Adolf of Sweeden. Beaten again at Leck and dued as a consequence of his wounds. Rating as general: very good. (I don’t know if he’s in the EU-armylist for Austria).
GENERAL: Jacques de FARIAUX (1627-1695): Flemish noble. Fought for the Spanish in the 80 Years War. Later fought for the Dutch Republic.
GENERAL: Jan Andries VAN DER MEERSCH (?): Flemish general. Served in the Austrian and French armies. Led the Flemish rebels against Austrian rule. Victorious in the battle of Turnhout (1789).
GENERAL: Domique VANDAMME (1770-1830): Flemish general. Served under Napoleon in most of his campaigns.
EXPLORER: Gerardus Mercator (real name: Geraard De Kremer) (1512-1594). One of the most important figures in the history of cartography.
EXPLORER: Petrus Plancius (real name: Petrus Plaetevoet) (1552-1622): reknowned cartographer and expert on the seas. Inspired the voyages of Hudson and Barentz.
CONQUISTADOR: Joos van Ghistel (1446-1525): undertook from 1481 to 1485 a long voyage in search for the lands of “Prester John”.
I can supply more names of "conquistadores", explorers, generals or admirals if necessary.
Bib will come up with the monarchs' list.
KUTGW!!
Nice. More would be nice
I've had about half of those already but military history ain't my forte
I'll copy and paste this to the Flemish thread in the beta forum.
Nice. More would be nice
I've had about half of those already but military history ain't my forte
I'll copy and paste this to the Flemish thread in the beta forum.
helping to complete lists
I'll finish the monarch files for Japan if you can provide me with one bit of info. Are you going to use the Shoguns (real power) or the Emperors (formal power) as rulers of Japan?
I'll finish the monarch files for Japan if you can provide me with one bit of info. Are you going to use the Shoguns (real power) or the Emperors (formal power) as rulers of Japan?
Originally posted by Bylandt
I was asking myself the same question but I was kinda hoping you would come up with something. Did Filips van Artevelde have descendants? After all he was "ruwaert" of Flanders for a short while. What about this monarch list: Artevelde I, Artevelde II, Artevelde III etc.
Maybe we'll better stick to the "Leden van Vlaanderen" (how would you translate that?)
There will be another surprise, Flanders will be HC element of Brabant
okidoki. I'll include some motivations on "discrepencies" must get some use of my bachelor...Originally posted by Doomdark
Tough one. Hmmm. Go with the Shoguns.