Houses go extinct too fast

[Azarias59]

If anyone doesn't like it, you can give the houses a better chance of surviving longer by getting rid of stillborns. In birth_events.txt, find the event that begins with: # A child is stillborn! (AGOT)

Change what is there to:

# A child is stillborn! (AGOT)
character_event = {
	id = 380
	picture = "GFX_evt_death"
	is_triggered_only = yes
	
	trigger = { mother = { has_character_flag = flag_stillbirth } }
	
	immediate = {
		mother = { clr_character_flag = flag_stillbirth }
		}
	
	option = {
		name = OK
	}
}

This is only a workaround. Again, the reason houses die out is because the marriage system is flawed.

 

[unmerged(515410)]

This is only a workaround. Again, the reason houses die out is because the marriage system is flawed.

Ah, as I recall there's something of a fix for this too.

Say Arianne Martell marries some guy from some random duchy in a normal marriage. Sarwyck, Crakehall, Marbrand, doesn't matter. Go into your events folder and look for customizer_houses. The child of this marriage will be of the unimportant fathers dynasty and not a Martell, so do a quick charinfo help in console and look up the childs charid. Say the childs id is 696973555. You'd then type event customizer_houses.9 696973555 into console and the childs dynasty will be changed to Martell.

Should still work, it certainly did in previous versions. There's an event to change the dynasty of any character to whatever great house you'd like.

 

[GrandPanjandrum]

In previous versions of the mod, AI reigning ladies and female heirs tended be married matrilineally in most cases, but I've notice that in this latest version, the AI is very unwilling to do so.

 

[zonkie]

I see most female rulers not marry matrilineally.

 

[Ivashanko]

Ah, as I recall there's something of a fix for this too.

Say Arianne Martell marries some guy from some random duchy in a normal marriage. Sarwyck, Crakehall, Marbrand, doesn't matter. Go into your events folder and look for customizer_houses. The child of this marriage will be of the unimportant fathers dynasty and not a Martell, so do a quick charinfo help in console and look up the childs charid. Say the childs id is 696973555. You'd then type customizer_houses.9 696973555 into console and the childs dynasty will be changed to Martell.

Should still work, it certainly did in previous versions. There's an event to change the dynasty of any character to whatever great house you'd like.

I forgot about those events. Thank you.

 

[das]

Might it be possible to up the fertility a bit for noble houses (or hell, everyone?). Even just from the standpoint of trying to simulate the events of the books, it's really weird how easily some of them die out within the first few decades.

(Granted, maybe I should also stop killing so many Starks in my games...)

 

[yezhanquan]

If the RNG decides to throw Great Plagues around like candy, people are just going to die.

 

[Rozmarzony]

Take a look at the ASOIAF MUSH, ran by two associates of GRRM with his approval and advice.

The system they use, is that any woman who is a lady in her own right, or an heiress, retains her name at birth and passes the name down to her children. With that in mind, I suggest you do away with matrilineal marriages, and make an event system where if the woman is the one 'in power' (ex. an heiress, suo jure lady), then her children were take the name from her. This is why the houses lasted so long in the books.

+1, matri marriages are completely not in GoT-style and should be deleted. (or only left for Dorne)

 

[yezhanquan]

Does the coding allow the game to "remember" this arrangement, or does it have to fire every time a child is born?

 

[Ethan194]

+1, matri marriages are completely not in GoT-style and should be deleted. (or only left for Dorne)

Or the real word for that matter.

 

[Brent4224]

I don't know if I'm odd but I refuse to play as houses that are from the story...I like being me.I think extinction is a good part but to be fair I find it odd any kings family would easily go extinct.

 

[unmerged(229635)]

On a different note, in my current game for some reason there are some Lords Paramount/Kings in my game who simply don't get married til 30-40, no betrothals, nothing. I've had to save several great houses by marrying off my Yronwood daughters to them.

 

[markmid]

If my opinion matters, I would love to see the major houses put up more of a fight via events to stay alive throughout the course of the game!

+1, matri marriages are completely not in GoT-style and should be deleted. (or only left for Dorne)

Wouldn't this compound the problem in some cases if major houses had no male heirs? Couldn't their be a flag if 'this house trait', then allow it. Each of the major houses getting their own trait.

Another possibility is to bring in a book character from that house during a later stage of the game if that house is destroyed.

 

[beartjah]

IIRC it's explained in canon there hasn't really been unbroken lines for thousands of years, but people tend to take the name of the previous rulers if they're from a prestigious house. Perhaps, for example, if a character somehow ends up in Winterfell and is Northern/Old Gods or has a Stark family member somewhere, they get a decision to take the Stark name themselves.

I think there should be some kind of ai block if he/she is the heir of the player, since otherwise you might fight a lot to get your heir on the throne, only to have him change his house and give you a game over...

 

[JonStryker]

I think the reasons are the low fertility paired with the high mortality as well as agnatic cognatic set for almost all titles all around. It is even hard to get tons of family members if you tried hard. The AI, of course, isn't trying all that hard. All it takes having a title holder die with only daughters alive (while there still are male family members around) and the title goes to some distant dynasty.

Once a family has lost its last holding it will die out pretty soon. I'd love to see those dynasties stick around longer and have a chance to regain what was lost. The head of a prestigious, now landless dynasty should always marry and have more than two children. Currently they will mostly die even if they do own some money and/or have an income.

 

[Calantyr]

Would this event work? I'm not exactly brilliant at scripting events.

The event is supposed to make a child the same dynasty as their mother as long as the mother is from one of the great houses and the child isn't considered the dynasty of another great house. In this manner the major noble families continue their House even through female members, just as long as they are not married to a House of equal prestige.

Of course this could screw over lesser houses if they have no other children to inherit.

namespace = greathouse

character_event = {
id = greathouse.1
desc = "EVTDESCgreathouse.1"
gfx = "GFX_fire_obsessed"

trigger = {
AND = {
is_alive = yes
is_primary_heir = no
OR = {
mother_even_if_dead = { dynasty = 59 }
mother_even_if_dead = { dynasty = 190 }
mother_even_if_dead = { dynasty = 159 }
mother_even_if_dead = { dynasty = 178 }
mother_even_if_dead = { dynasty = 253 }
mother_even_if_dead = { dynasty = 1 }
mother_even_if_dead = { dynasty = 317 }
mother_even_if_dead = { dynasty = 107 }
mother_even_if_dead = { dynasty = 496 }
}
NOT = {
trait = bastard
trait = giant
trait = dragon
trait = cotf
has_character_flag = greathouse_legitimised
OR = {
dynasty = 59 # Stark
dynasty = 190 # Lannister
dynasty = 159 # Tully
dynasty = 178 # Arryn
dynasty = 253 # Tyrell
dynasty = 1 # Martell
dynasty = 317 # Baratheon
dynasty = 107 # Greyjoy
dynasty = 496 # Targaryen
}
}
}
}

option = {
name = "EVTOPTAgreathouse.1"

if = {
limit = {
NOT = {
dynasty = 59
}
mother_even_if_dead = { dynasty = 59 }
}
dynasty = 59
set_character_flag = greathouse_legitimised
}
if = {
limit = {
NOT = {
dynasty = 190
}
mother_even_if_dead = { dynasty = 190 }
}
dynasty = 190
set_character_flag = greathouse_legitimised
}
if = {
limit = {
NOT = {
dynasty = 159
}
mother_even_if_dead = { dynasty = 159 }
}
dynasty = 159
set_character_flag = greathouse_legitimised
}
if = {
limit = {
NOT = {
dynasty = 178
}
mother_even_if_dead = { dynasty = 178 }
}
dynasty = 178
set_character_flag = greathouse_legitimised
}
if = {
limit = {
NOT = {
dynasty = 253
}
mother_even_if_dead = { dynasty = 253 }
}
dynasty = 253
set_character_flag = greathouse_legitimised
}
if = {
limit = {
NOT = {
dynasty = 1
}
mother_even_if_dead = { dynasty = 1 }
}
dynasty = 1
set_character_flag = greathouse_legitimised
}
if = {
limit = {
NOT = {
dynasty = 317
}
mother_even_if_dead = { dynasty = 317 }
}
dynasty = 317
set_character_flag = greathouse_legitimised
}
if = {
limit = {
NOT = {
dynasty = 107
}
mother_even_if_dead = { dynasty = 107 }
}
dynasty = 107
set_character_flag = greathouse_legitimised
}
if = {
limit = {
NOT = {
dynasty = 496
}
mother_even_if_dead = { dynasty = 496 }
}
dynasty = 496
set_character_flag = greathouse_legitimised
}
}
}

 

[Caezaire]

I believe part of the issue revolves around most of the scenarios beginning during a war with families that don't really have full trees. Sticking to cannon, a lot of noblemen died in the last 100 years preventing the situation where a second cousin can step in. There was the plague followed by civil wars, and GRRM didn't construct a family tree of every distant relative for all the families.

 

[D Toccs]

I don't really think it does go against canon.

Within the main books alone, which have covered so far a period of at most 2 years, House Stark has become functionally extinct, the Baratheons and Lannisters are barely hanging on, the Karstarks are about to be replaced by the Thenns, the Umbers have been reduced to a couple of old men and a prisoner, the Rosbys are have gone extinct, the Cleganes are no more, House Arryn is notably down to one sickly child, the Hornwoods are gone, House Bolton is on it's last very shaky legs and the Stokeworths are about to be replaced by the Blackwaters.

The Hoares, Gardeners and Durrendons went extinct because of Aegon's Conquest
At least six major houses went extinct trying to hold Harrenhall.
House Toyne was reduced to a couple of landless wanderers after they overreached.
After the Blackfyre Rebellion, Houses Peake, Strickland, Mandrake and others were reduced to a few wandering mercs and House Ball has never been heard from again.
House Osgrey was reduced to just one old man and even though he eventually married, we never hear anything about the line continuing.
Houses Reyne and Tarbeck were completely wiped out after overreaching.
The Darlkyns are no more after the Defiance and House Hollard was reduced to one drunken fool who went on to die without issue.

While the female heir marriage problem is definitely an issue (especially in Dorne), the idea that Houses in Westeros either never or very rarely go extinct just doesn't really hold true. Once wars and major events start happening, the Houses involved tend to drop like flies.

 

[Tabellarius]

I do understand what your saying Toccs, but on the scale and in the time that extinction is happening in the game. All that took place over the course of three hundred years. I have had every Paramount family get unlanded in less than fifty years. It would be one thing if big devastating wars like Aegon's reking, the dances of dragons, Blackfyre rebellion, and the Clash of Kings happen ever hundred years like in the books, but instead they happen yearly, and with the annoying slave raids constantly there is never "peace" in westros.

 

[Rationalsanity]

You don't see Great Houses get wiped out through anything less than massive disasters. There is no record of any Great House running out of male heirs and being replaced as a result; because the husbands that marry into the House take their name instead. Jon Arryn's heir in The Crowned Stag start for instance shouldn't be an Arryn but an arrangement was put into place in the canon. Unfortunately the game can't really replicate this very well.

Great Houses dying off in wars or (huge) plagues is one thing but anything less killing them off (especially one wrong type marriage) doesn't really mesh with the canon.