How come mostly only guys play Paradox Games/grand strategy?

[wolfing]

if we lived in a society where babies (boys or girls) were separated and educated on equal terms, without external influences, it would probably be 50/50. But the moment the parents decide to paint the room pink because "it's a girl!" and buy her Barbies instead of Legos or action figures, that's when the divide starts to happen.

 

[justin6477]

Only at the collegiate level. Most HS and lower do not.

More than half of public school teachers hold at least a Master’s degree. In the overall teaching force, there has been a slight shift in highest degree held. In 2005, a master’s degree in education was the highest degree held by nearly half of the teaching force (47 percent); an additional 10 percent held a Master’s degree in a field other than education. In 2011, the proportion of the teaching force holding masters’ degrees in education as their highest degree was 43 percent; 12 percent held Master’s degrees.

Source: Nation Center for Education Information
http://www.ncei.com/Profile_Teachers_US_2011.pdf

 

[Zombie Trotski]

cus we is smart

no stoopid girls on these forum

 

[tdpatriots12]

Implying that gamers actually care about the community. Most gamers just want to play the game, not get involved with communities.

Seriously, you sound so much like a Kotaku/Gamasutra/Polygon article it's embarrassing.

He said seriously, posting on a community message board discussing why there are so few women in their community, without a hint of irony.

It is the era of #GamerGate and we should get used to defending our games from political and ideological attacks.

Lol.

 

[Phibs]

He said seriously, posting on a community message board discussing why there are so few women in their community, without a hint of irony.

Pdox is quite involved in that regard. (Thankfully so, due mostly to modding, frequent updates/dlc and poor ingame documentation XD)
Still the number of players far outweighs the 'community' here.

I've been a gamer since ... erm ... whenever dark forces II came out and never joined any forum before this one and none since even though I still play quite a few other games, though declining.


Edit: Well that's a lie really I recently joined a guild 3 forum to receive news.

 

[Axe99]

Yes, that's exactly what I'm implying. With the nuance that it might have been accidental, not intentional. Not sure if it's the thematic or the game play, but the game is clearly targeted at a certain demographic: hardcore strategy fans, and this demographic is predominantly male.

The logic here doesn't hold together. Yes, PDS games are made for hardcore strategy fans. Yes, the (sketchy) evidence we've been put together suggests that hardcore strategy fans are more likely to be more male than female. However, that does not mean, in and of itself, that games made for hardcore strategy fans are made for men. Good strategy game design is not an inherently 'male' thing, even if the market at the moment appeals more to women - indeed, if the games were shamelessly made for men, I would expect a whole bunch of silly shots of low-cleavage tops or large female busts in the marketing of the game - something that is actually far, far less likely in PDS games than almost any other genre (seriously, have a look at the promo shots for games on Steam, there's some pretty shameless stuff there), and (a little sadly, I'd rather games were marketed on the strength of the gameplay, rather than some shallow emotional hook) pretty common elsewhere.

A hundred years ago, you could have made a similar statement about child care, which was (then as I think it is now) primarily a female task. A good book on child care is a good book on child care regardless of whether it informs a man or woman, even if women are likely to be the main audience. It doesn't mean the book is 'made for women', just that women are more likely to use it. Analogy provided here to help clarify point.

 

[Phibs]

I don't gather why the statement that certain types of entertainment specifically appeal to audiences of mostly one gender (regardless of intent) is so objectionable?

As a man with zero interest in either cars, soccer, action games/movies, etc - I have found this to be quite cumbersome due to every other man on earth but me being interested in only these things (without exception).

Spoiler

Obvious hyperbole, but it is true among my peers the quota is irritatingly high

On the other hand I'd have no trouble naming countless books, movies or tv-shows with nigh exclusively female audiences.

Naturally this can be subject to change and there are exceptions (me being one after all)

 

[Alerias]

I dont know. My girlfriend plays Civilization yet doesn't seem to be interested to try Paradox games.

I'd classify her as a gamer tho. The only thing that amused her is the file structure of the game and how most things are easily moddable. But she thought the graphics were weak. I think her exact words were "Looks like 12 guys with laptops that only runs notepad coding in their mom's basement."

...

Besides her, I dont think I know any ladies who played strategy games at all.

 

[Phibs]

"Looks like 12 guys with laptops that only runs notepad coding in their mom's basement."

Ouch.

Did you defend glorious map staring simulator?

 

[Alerias]

I told her it's indeed made by a pretty small team but that it improved tons over the years and showed her screenshots of EU2. Beyond that, not much to say. These games have never been about flashy special effects.

I like them because I like history and uchronia. There's something in my brain excited by the notion I'm rewriting history, even if the gameplay isnt totally realistic. She's not into history, so Civ suits her fine for the strategy aspects. I just get annoyed when I play the Earth map and Aztecs are in Russia.

 

[justin6477]

I just get annoyed when I play the Earth map and Aztecs are in Russia.

I feel like Civ would be better with randomly generated civilizations rather than trying to use historical ones. There's nothing like starting off with a country that's super good at one thing and spawning in an area that completely knee-caps your bonuses; England in Siberia is a good example (have fun with those boats, mate) or my last Civ game where I spawned in Australia as Germany and had to create an Oceanian Reich.... let's just say those Lansknechts and Panzers didn't get a whole lot of use.

 

[DDA87]

I dont know. My girlfriend plays Civilization yet doesn't seem to be interested to try Paradox games.

I'd classify her as a gamer tho. The only thing that amused her is the file structure of the game and how most things are easily moddable. But she thought the graphics were weak. I think her exact words were "Looks like 12 guys with laptops that only runs notepad coding in their mom's basement."

...

Besides her, I dont think I know any ladies who played strategy games at all.

Civ4 or 5, if she's giving the graphic argument I'm betting 5

I admit first time I opened up hoi3 all I saw was numbers and boxes with crosses in them as well, now.. I see armies, tank regiments and big naval battles :blush: Maybe paradox games demand a bit more imagination and roleplaying, just like civilization. Which turns off alot of people that are used to modern games which are (alot of times) mostly about the graphics and superficial ways of keeping people playing them ( buying items with rl money, grinding for xp/gear, dlc's, etc. ) Heck I play a ton of different games ranging from Crysis and Borderlands to AOEII, don't starve and left for dead. Turn based games always hook me back in though, especially now that I have a fulltime job and all. Maybe paradox games cater more to slightly older gamers, women above 25 that play games are very rare as far that I'm aware off.. Maybe that has something to do with OP's question?

 

[Alerias]

women above 25 that play games are very rare as far that I'm aware off

She'll turn 25 on Valentines' day. Don't jinx it

 

[DDA87]

She'll turn 25 on Valentines' day. Don't jinx it

I won't, I wish mine would play civ with me

 

[Axe99]

I don't gather why the statement that certain types of entertainment specifically appeal to audiences of mostly one gender (regardless of intent) is so objectionable?

I don't think anyone's saying it is objectionable, more that our understanding of exactly how much the statement is true in this case is pretty shaky, and the reasons as to why it is so even shakier (ie, as per the OP, why is it the case PDS games seem to be more a bloke thing). The issue is more that people are making quite strong normative statements based on limited (or often no) evidence, and we're trying to get to the bottom of them as best we can .

 

[klopkr]

As a girl i think i can answer this. There's already kind of a taboo towards women playing games. Some people think it's because of sexism in gaming but imo it's mostly people who don't play games shaming others into not playing games, especially other women. When girls do play games it's usually casual stuff because otherwise it makes you seem like a loser and when they get into hardcore games grand strategy is seen as especially nerdy so there's even more of a taboo.

Tl;dr when people find out i play games they think less of me, among people that play games when they find out i play grandstrategy games they think even less of me.

It's rediculous but frustrating and i can see why it turns people away. It's not actually a problem with grandstrategy games themselves.

 

[Phibs]

I don't think anyone's saying it is objectionable, more that our understanding of exactly how much the statement is true in this case is pretty shaky, and the reasons as to why it is so even shakier (ie, as per the OP, why is it the case PDS games seem to be more a bloke thing). The issue is more that people are making quite strong normative statements based on limited (or often no) evidence, and we're trying to get to the bottom of them as best we can .

Huh.
Well I don't think it a coincidence that channels heavily featuring such games have an overwhelmingly (>90%) male viewership. Is there reason to think there's a significant delta between that audience and pdox audience in general?
From personal experience I have met exactly three women I would consider gamers, meaning they don't just play candy crush, and all three are into that japanime thing, which I'll never get.
I know this is circumstantial and I'm near thirty year old mummy, so amongst teens this might already have shifted again. *shrug*

As a girl i think i can answer this. There's already kind of a taboo towards women playing games. Some people think it's because of sexism in gaming but imo it's mostly people who don't play games shaming others into not playing games, especially other women. When girls do play games it's usually casual stuff because otherwise it makes you seem like a loser and when they get into hardcore games grand strategy is seen as especially nerdy so there's even more of a taboo.

Tl;dr when people find out i play games they think less of me, among people that play games when they find out i play grandstrategy games they think even less of me.

It's rediculous but frustrating and i can see why it turns people away. It's not actually a problem with grandstrategy games themselves.

This rings true. A sad state of affairs, really.

 

[Axe99]

As a girl i think i can answer this. There's already kind of a taboo towards women playing games. Some people think it's because of sexism in gaming but imo it's mostly people who don't play games shaming others into not playing games, especially other women. When girls do play games it's usually casual stuff because otherwise it makes you seem like a loser and when they get into hardcore games grand strategy is seen as especially nerdy so there's even more of a taboo.

Tl;dr when people find out i play games they think less of me, among people that play games when they find out i play grandstrategy games they think even less of me.

It's rediculous but frustrating and i can see why it turns people away. It's not actually a problem with grandstrategy games themselves.

This is a bit rough (although not unexpected, and somewhat consistent with the Wichita study) - I deffo hope it changes and daresay it will with time . I'm looking forward to a day when people that don't game are considered old fashioned, rather than people that do game being considered nerdy. Probs a decade or two off yet, but we'll hit the tipping point sooner or later.

Huh.
Well I don't think it a coincidence that channels heavily featuring such games have an overwhelmingly (>90%) male viewership. Is there reason to think there's a significant delta between that audience and pdox audience in general?
From personal experience I have met exactly three women I would consider gamers, meaning they don't just play candy crush, and all three are into that japanime thing, which I'll never get.
I know this is circumstantial and I'm near thirty year old mummy, so amongst teens this might already have shifted again. *shrug*

Don't forget that the OP asked 'why' - the question is less 'how many women play PDS games', and more 'why is the audience predominantly male', and from the posts in the thread, there's been quite a variety of responses.

On taking evidence from the internet, I don't think it's a coincidence that the Youtube channel has a mostly male audience, but I do think it's important not to get too carried away with 'vocal minorities' on the internet. Anyone reading the gaming press of message boards would have thought this console generation would be off to a feeble start, and instead it's been one of the strongest in history. Large companies made multi-million dollar decisions based on the 'internet vibe', and it's come back to haunt them. I think we'll probably find a bit more representative audience for PDS-type games on forums and youtube than we will for console gamers, but I still think it's a difficult to extrapolate out from the 'hardcore minority' out to the broader audience.

That said, I totally agree (and have above) that the PDS audience is most likely predominantly male, although the reasons for this sound like they're fairly complex, based on all the posts above .

 

[Phibs]

That said, I totally agree (and have above) that the PDS audience is most likely predominantly male, although the reasons for this sound like they're fairly complex, based on all the posts above .

Well that puts us in complete agreement, good job. /sarcasm
Now we can't shout at each other. Seriously would you please think before being agreeable?!?!

 

[No idea]

if we lived in a society where babies (boys or girls) were separated and educated on equal terms, without external influences, it would probably be 50/50. But the moment the parents decide to paint the room pink because "it's a girl!" and buy her Barbies instead of Legos or action figures, that's when the divide starts to happen.

It has been many, many years since girls and boys are educated the same in schools. And in many homes. And I dont see there are many of them playing grand strategy.

I dont understand why is so difficult for some people to accept that many women might have different interests, likes and dislikes, than men. A part of it can be induced by society, I accept that. But only a part of it.