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ray243

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Oct 19, 2010
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Modular government doesn't seem that possible for CK3 as we are getting more and more different government types. You have to either outright adopt a new model of government wholesale if you want to change from tribal to feudal to clan or to admin. We are also getting the nomad government now, and later, we are getting the Chinese celestial government, plus Japan and also Southeast Asia.

If there is to be a huge redesign of governments to make it modular, how would we go about designing it? I think at the least, we need some mechanics that divide offices from private ownership.

Offices are the task and role a character can hold within a given polity, with different kinds of responsibility and power. A commander controls and manage the soldiers under their command, a governor manage civil administration of a province, judges handles law and order, senior ministers manage different departments and so on. Then on the other hand you have private ownership of either land, wealth and resources. Holding an office doesn't automatically grant you ownership of the land you are supposed to be managing, but rather it's a position you are paid for in various ways.

But private ownership can allows you to expand from having estates to outright a feudal lord if you get enough power to ensure the realm gives you all full land ownership+ all political and military power in a region, plus full control over your inheritance of such feudal lordship by your children/legal heirs.

What other ideas to make a modular government system for Ck3 or even Ck4?
 
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I think an additional question we need to ask is, how is the AI supposed to understand the difference between various governments and how their features are supposed to mix-and-match to stabilize a realm.
AFAIK admin governors become unhappy even if you promote them from a poor duchy to a rich duchy, which they should be happy about.
I think we need to at least represent how population structures pressure government formation, such as how various outside powers* that entered China Sinicized and that might require reworks on the provincial level.
*Beyond the more famous examples of the conquest powers Liao, Jin and Yuan, to tie in with the Turkic flavor thread, I would like to add that the Turkic Shatuo people also Sinicized and went on to found three of the Five Dynasties (Later Tang, Later Jin and Later Han).
 
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Modularity is a curse in this, because it removes the actual flavor of the region you are playing as. Like, in a game where the pope should be a powerful political force, Catholicism is basically meaningless, outside of being a piggy bank you hit periodically.

I'd rather have tailored content over modularity any day of the week.
 
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I feel like having a proper system of laws would help add some more dynamism to governments while still keeping regional flavor. Like, Europe going administrative is weird but there should be some ways of having a more centralized realm outside of crown authority, which is an incredibly boring system.
 
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I think it should borrow off EU4 or maybe Stellaris.

There should be a base framework every government uses. Nothing too crazy, just concepts like who's in charge, how is succession handled, 'estates' as in where you live off the map if you go landless or move, basic realm laws like if things can be inherited outside of the lands and all the relevant government manas like government coffers, herd, basically all the mana should be tracked and available. Vassal management, regardless of its nuances should all share one screen/tab with all your options with vassals like tax collectors or contracts or administrative families, etc. Since you can have vassals of all types and have parts of other governments these items should be available, tracked, and shared. They should be consolidated when possible and separated when not.

Some stuff might convert in a harder way, like switching your estate type from admin to nomadic/wanderer might mean selling or losing all your property and buying heards or getting camp followers. But they should have conversion opportunities and options.

Then on top of that shared base framework is where the basic governments are. We have feudal, tribal, byzantine administrative, nomadic, clan (rename this), etc. This is where the general flavour of that government type lives. Things like feudal governments using more of the tier system, while others might use fewer tiers. Things like nomads using herds or certain casus beli.

Then at the toppest layer, that's where the real diversity of governments comes into play. A modular system like the culture system. Where through special conditions or payment in mana like prestige or just having multiple different government types around or in your realm, you can get an arbitrary number of special mechanics and rules. Some might be hard to change out and others might come easier or automatically in some conditions. This is where things like the steppe seasons, or tax collectors, or even more regional and unique representations like the Thing or parliament come from. The devs can go wild here and make all the special thematic exceptions and put all the neat little things they put into specific existing governments.

But since it's modular realms that don't perfectly fit one of the existing governments can still use the relevant parts of the government structures. That would add actual uniquness and diversity to the map instead of having everything fit into 5-7 playable governments that only represent a very strict and narrow version of a single historical realms government system.

I think this isn't impossible. Or even a major ask. EU4 and Stellaris already do this, though with their own minor quirks that could be improved. They don't cause a general blandness. Playing a pirate republic is still different than a monarchy in EU4. Playing with different civics or authority is still different in stellaris. But it allows for so many more unique possibilities.

The problem is that the devs already went down a hardcoding and non modular development structure. A general programing faux pas. Instead of reusing exisiting work they prefer to reinvent the wheel, instead of building off existing system, they start fromt he ground up and make one off systems for one popular realm that usually doesn't even represent the realm throught all its history well, much less others.

They then leave the rest of the map empty and placeholder as usual or patch over areas by repasting these governments where they fit slightly closer but are still completly ahistorical. Hell if the game rules acknoleding how poorly both feudal and administrative represent certain regions they're an option for isn't a good enough castigation of the current process I don't know what else would be.

This is sadly something I think only a CK4 or a true CK3 2.0 could tackle at this point, and that's only if the devs take this problem in their development culture seriously.

But I don't think it's too much to ask for in the future and I think it's a mistake to believe it's not possible or even particularly harder than the current system. IMO the current system may be the lazier way in the short term but it's the much worse and more work inducing way in the long run as the game becomes more and more hard coded.

Modularity is not a sacrifice of flavour. It is flavour. Non-modularity is what has left the game mostly represented poorly by late medieval ideal french feudalism.
 
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They do not need to make modular government, they just need to make ONE government which is the best for minmaxing and most who are now asking for "modular government" will go for it, like any other modular feature in game now.
 
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I think an additional question we need to ask is, how is the AI supposed to understand the difference between various governments and how their features are supposed to mix-and-match to stabilize a realm.
AFAIK admin governors become unhappy even if you promote them from a poor duchy to a rich duchy, which they should be happy about.
I think we need to at least represent how population structures pressure government formation, such as how various outside powers* that entered China Sinicized and that might require reworks on the provincial level.
*Beyond the more famous examples of the conquest powers Liao, Jin and Yuan, to tie in with the Turkic flavor thread, I would like to add that the Turkic Shatuo people also Sinicized and went on to found three of the Five Dynasties (Later Tang, Later Jin and Later Han).

I think this should be easier to code? Like you just need to have something that represent the prestige value of the different provinces, and if AI gets a more prestigious province, they will go for it.

The bigger issue is more how passive the AI is in investing influence to improve candidacy for their family members. A lot of easy/cheap provinces aren't being invested in for candidacy, neither are admin counties.
 
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I think this should be easier to code? Like you just need to have something that represent the prestige value of the different provinces, and if AI gets a more prestigious province, they will go for it.
IIRC the AI still triggers the feudal response to losing land, or was this patched already?
 
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Its funny how quickly the "modular goverments" narrative fell apart when the first dlcs started rolling.At the release of the game people were constantly telling how this improved modular system of CK3 would be better than the one in CK2.
 
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Modularity is a curse in this, because it removes the actual flavor of the region you are playing as. Like, in a game where the pope should be a powerful political force, Catholicism is basically meaningless, outside of being a piggy bank you hit periodically.

I'd rather have tailored content over modularity any day of the week.
The modular religion system is by far the biggest thing holding back western Europe from being anywhere remotely close to a decent medieval simulation. However, the devs will not touch it for totally understandable reasons: the modular religion system allows for me to make matriarchal incest lesbian pagan human sacrifice France which gets lots of likes on Youtube and Reddit.
 
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Gets opinion lowered b/c title revoked.
I find it funny that they can also refuse and the consequences are the same too. I heard revoking titles will be easy, but it's in fact the same, except now i also pay influence for that.... bruh.
 
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Its funny how quickly the "modular goverments" narrative fell apart when the first dlcs started rolling.At the release of the game people were constantly telling how this improved modular system of CK3 would be better than the one in CK2.
For me it's after Royal Court when suddenly everyone want to hybrid with Georgian culture for an OP cavalry.
 
I'm not sure if 100% modularity is what is needed or available, but that degrees of variability would creare different kinds of gameplay would be appreciated.
From what it sounds like in All Under Heaven, China, Japan and Korea, and Southeast Asia are all going to be receiving different government types, in addition to the release of Nomads in less than a month, to make at least 4 government types. While we lack details, the mechanics implied make it sound like playing as the Jin dynasty will be different than playing as the Khmer, whether that's rules of engagement, different interrealm/foreign interactions, a mana to spend, MAA and warfaring limits, etc. Given how we've been able to enjoy playing as just tribes, clans, and feudal for 4 years before last fall's Administrative government, I think this'll open up a lot of new ways for us to play and interact with the game, with different mechanics in different parts of the world to try out through several different playthroughs.

Meanwhile, in present CK3, the only difference between tribal subsaharan africa and tribal ireland is the men at arms and cultural tradition modifiers. Feudal India is the same as feudal Germany, though Catholics can participate in a Holy War and Hindus can take multiple wives. A clan of Maghrebi Bebers is the same clan as Ghurid Afghanistan. We've played most of these same campaigns already, it's now just got a different coat of paint to it.
Similarly, most differences between religions are modifiers at best -- marriage laws, holy wars, heads of faith, and realm priests are the only consistent "mechanics" that are consistently interacted with. Sending sons to monasteries is just another method of disqualifiying someone from succession, using a different resource. No, getting +5% piety for using the Pilgrimage mechanic doesn't make it different relgious "feature." A custom relgion might make things fresh in the short term, but there are limits on how much the doctrines really affect our gameplay.

I don't mean this to be mean of the CK3 team, data is limited and production times are critical. And, especially, AI logic and optimization is difficult on the best day. Adding a whole ton of complications would not do any good--but the history represented in this timeframe is anything but limited, logical, or optimized.

My personal want would either be for these systems to have different government types that influence different styles of play, such as how Administrative gives so many different affect in comparison to feudal/clan, or ways for Feudal to have variants with actual mechanical interactions to represent different historical representations, so that playing as a Feudal Empire with an Itinerant Court and the Imperial Church has MECHANICAL differences from a Centralized Feudal Kingdom with Gallicanism or a rising Duchy colony with syncretic Missionaries, etc. A failing Administrative Empire with strong regional governors that'll split into feudal states versus a bureaucractic juggernaut whose influence will become adopted by all who take over its cities. Does a lord only answer to his council, a senate of noble families, a parliament of powerful lords, or a diet of all of his vassals? Do the clerics have any say in governement, or the actions one can perform, be it diplomatic, warfare, or internal? What about cities - are republics really a thing other than money pots, and what about their historic rise to prominence via the commercial revolution?

Roads to Power gave us plenty of new mechanics that influence gameplay and playing around with/affecting mechanics gives more options and variability than +10% Levies from Patrilineal Vassals on Tuesdays.

Let AI behavior be driven by traditons and with new affects that can be unlocked over time through innovations -- things that a liege would want, things thar a vassal would want, things that a head of faith would want, so that an England formed in 867 is not the same as England still played in 1452 (without becoming Administrative)
the-top-5-most-popular-start-regions-since-the-launch-of-v0-btebwqhlj8md1.png

Look at the data: collected before RTP, and so no Administrative governments, and there's no differentiation between start dates either, so assumptions have to be made between 867 and 1066.
Britannia has the mechanical shift from tribal viking or Ireland to feudal, as well as the heart of the Anglosphere and Tutorial island.
France has Hæstinn to adventure outside, else it's the prime feudal/crusading experience, right there along England.
Scandinavia is that tribal to feudal shift again, but more directly.
Byzantium had primogeniture and is the favorite of Romaboos.
Spain has a Struggle between Feudal and Clan polities.

What regions are excluded here and what mechanical variations do they offer that can't already be used above?
Different starting positions give a fine setting, and that's something that can be enjoyed if you have a love for a region/family/character, but, across the wider community, would require some uniqueness to stand out to show what you love.

Give West Africa a "Munsa" government type and East Africa as "Negus" government, instead of the same wrote Feudal system. Give them a couple of different mechanics for vassal management, MAA/levies, and the African weather patterns, and then save the finer detailing and complications for its focused DLC. India can have a mix between feudal and what the Mandala system will get (heck, use the time between All under Heaven as a testing ground), while Tibet is Monastic Feudal with some different Buddhist mechanics around the Karma tied to ownership "Temple Complexes" that can be upgraded in various forms like Estates, with fights over followers to the most prestigious monastery (within your own realm and externally). I dont want to call them mini-games, but at least something fairly interactable on top/on the side of regular gameplay.

But, importantly, a clan should be a clan, a feudal a feudal, etc. For the fear of repeating mechanics, which does save on dev time but makes things blend together, there should be exclusive mechanics between governments that make them unique, whether its a mana type like Influence that's paired with Schemes, different types of landless buildings, various economic or military structures, something that gives different spins across the world.

My Suggestion for modular implementation is still in progress, but it will, one day, be completed to be ignored on that forum
 
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I find it funny that they can also refuse and the consequences are the same too. I heard revoking titles will be easy, but it's in fact the same, except now i also pay influence for that.... bruh.

It definitely have a lot of issues by building things from a feudal framework. It's an improvement from what we had with viceroyalties in CK2, but it needs to feel like actual office than being feudal lord but with different appointment/lack of inheritance mechanics.
 
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They do not need to make modular government, they just need to make ONE government which is the best for minmaxing and most who are now asking for "modular government" will go for it, like any other modular feature in game now.
I don't want modular things for min maxing I want them for max minning.

Give me the worst government so I can make this game hard.
 
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