How to represent steppe cities

[apollo1989vieten]

Permanent settlements on the steppe did exist, but compared to the outside world’s settlement density, the number was very, very low. They tended to exist in areas with abundant supply of water like along major rivers and oasis and/or along major trade routes. In the settled world in game, every single county has a castle holding in it, with the exception of certain counties that were bishoprics. Tribal holdings are sort of like proto cities. None of these things apply to every county along the steppe. So, what would be the best way to represent steppe cities in light of the rarity compared to the rest of the map?

 

[InsidiousMage]

So, what would be the best way to represent steppe cities in light of the rarity compared to the rest of the map?

I mean, we don't even know how they are going to work in game, just that there is a decision that unlocks City Planning for nomads.

 

[tilly]

i mean we could always hope and pray they do away with the inadequate castle/city/temple abstraction entirely and come up with a better system but we could also hope and pray for jesus christ himself to descend to earth and hand us all a crisp 20 dollar bill each for all the good itd do

i imagine the plan is for several individual devs to come up with several distinct solutions and implement them wherever theyre working on so the whole thing ends up an inconsistent mess. you know, the usual gameplan

 

[apollo1989vieten]

I mean, we don't even know how they are going to work in game, just that there is a decision that unlocks City Planning for nomads.

Since we don’t know, I was trying to gage what others’ opinion on this are. Founding a new city for nomadic rulers should be pretty expensive except if it is on an abundant water source or the coast. As for at game start, the known nomadic cities should be represented and possibly be points of interest.

 

[Koppel235]

Permanent settlements on the steppe did exist, but compared to the outside world’s settlement density, the number was very, very low. They tended to exist in areas with abundant supply of water like along major rivers and oasis and/or along major trade routes. In the settled world in game, every single county has a castle holding in it, with the exception of certain counties that were bishoprics. Tribal holdings are sort of like proto cities. None of these things apply to every county along the steppe. So, what would be the best way to represent steppe cities in light of the rarity compared to the rest of the map?

They can use a Karakorum or Khanbaliq from the Mongol empire or Otuken from the Gokturk Khaganate as templates.

 

[InsidiousMage]

Since we don’t know, I was trying to gage what others’ opinion on this are. Founding a new city for nomadic rulers should be pretty expensive except if it is on an abundant water source or the coast. As for at game start, the known nomadic cities should be represented and possibly be points of interest.

The main issue here is - can nomads actually use city holdings? The devs have mentioned that nomads can use but not improve castles so I would assume that would apply to cities, if nomads can use them at all. Why would I want a holding that I can't actually improve? How cities should work is really going to depend on what nomads can actually do with them.

 

[apollo1989vieten]

The main issue here is - can nomads actually use city holdings? The devs have mentioned that nomads can use but not improve castles so I would assume that would apply to cities, if nomads can use them at all. Why would I want a holding that I can't actually improve? How cities should work is really going to depend on what nomads can actually do with them.

Nomads probably shouldn’t be able to use cities but are able to extract wealth from them.

 

[InsidiousMage]

Nomads probably shouldn’t be able to use cities but are able to extract wealth from them.

In that case, I don't think it really matters how cities work since the amount of wealth you are going to get from them is going to be minuscule. Some restrictions on where you can found them would be fine though.

 

[klopkr]

Nomads should be able to upgrade cities. Simple as.

If that feels too unbalanced add a prestige cost just for them.

The nomadic cities should just be in the game. I don't know why cities couldn't exist in some steppe counties and not in others.

Just restrict building new cities to one per county (or duchy either) and make it cost a lot more for nomads.

I don't think these different governments need to have so many hard limitations.

 

[apollo1989vieten]

Nomads should be able to upgrade cities. Simple as.

If that feels too unbalanced add a prestige cost just for them.

The nomadic cities should just be in the game. I don't know why cities couldn't exist in some steppe counties and not in others.

Just restrict building new cities to one per county (or duchy either) and make it cost a lot more for nomads.

I don't think these different governments need to have so many hard limitations.

The cities should probably have a restriction on where they can be founded or an increased cost in undesirable locations.

 

[AHumpierRogue]

Obviously it's not fitting for every example, but I actually think Steppe Cities should feature as a representation of Absolute dominance Nomad Camps. Basically it should be the approaching the peak of having nomad camp, requiring tier 4 and tier 5 Dominance. To my knowledge, most "steppe cities" like Sarai would be the centers of nomadic Empires(the Golden Horde, in Sarai's case). Indeed Sarai IIRC had a considerable nomadic element with huge numbers of tents. Basically, these steppe-cities relied on being the centers of a network of tribute and trade in order to ensure their place on the landscape(though they did exploit the land around them as well, ultimately if not the center/benefitting from a state, they would fade away). As such I'd have it so that at at least T4 dominance, or whatever Dominance level the Khazars start at at least, you can choose to turn your camp into a city, giving it a proper name(rather than just "Khan X's Camp", new buildings options and more powerful buildings, Many tent buildings can remain but now you can also establish grander buildings/districts for your nomad capital.

 

[Koppel235]

Heres a reconstruction of Mongol capital Karakorum:
Khagan's Palace

Main city:

 

[Koppel235]

Here is Khanbaliq,capital of Yuan China,from Buren A. in Artstation:

Another rendition of Yuan Khanbaliq Palace Layout from a chinese article:

 

[Koppel235]

So to summarize my comment,Nomads should have settled cities,and I also advocate a double capital mechanic(summer/winter) capital.The Yuan had Khanbaliq/Dadu as winter capital and Shangdu as summer capital.

 

[Pups' Socks]

Simple. Add Steppe cities that historically existed, allow nomads to hold cities like many nomads did historically, increase cost for building new holdings in the steppe, not only just for cities or nomads but for all holding types and all government types. An exception to the last could be the location of historical cities, fortresses etc. And it shouldn't be limited just to steppe but you should have a really hard time building holdings that did not historically make sense. You shouldn't be able to found a new city in say, the middle of the desert with no rivers or even an oasis around

 

[apollo1989vieten]

Simple. Add Steppe cities that historically existed, allow nomads to hold cities like many nomads did historically, increase cost for building new holdings in the steppe, not only just for cities or nomads but for all holding types and all government types. An exception to the last could be the location of historical cities, fortresses etc. And it shouldn't be limited just to steppe but you should have a really hard time building holdings that did not historically make sense. You shouldn't be able to found a new city in say, the middle of the desert with no rivers or even an oasis around

Nomads didn’t necessarily hold the cities. There was some conflict between the settled parts of the steppe and and nomads.

 

[Pups' Socks]

Nomads didn’t necessarily hold the cities. There was some conflict between the settled parts of the steppe and and nomads.

Not all nomads did, but some did. Should we disregard it entirely because not all of them did? Game is already rife with stuff that are added solely because of popular belief but are wrong like the current levies which are poorly equipped peasants, or Byzantine Empire being made up entirely of Greeks or only Anglo-Saxons existing in England etc. do we really need to butcher historical accuracy more than it already has been?

 

[apollo1989vieten]

Not all nomads did, but some did. Should we disregard it entirely because not all of them did? Game is already rife with stuff that are added solely because of popular belief but are wrong like the current levies which are poorly equipped peasants, or Byzantine Empire being made up entirely of Greeks or only Anglo-Saxons existing in England etc. do we really need to butcher historical accuracy more than it already has been?

Only the highest levels of nomads had level of control over cities that could somewhat resemble feudal control. Your other comments are off topic and thus won’t get a response from me here.

 

[tribnia]

When a nomad empire falls its capital will also be abandoned. How would this be simulated?

 

[Zopyrionis]

Khazaria alone has more than 100 cities according to Bavarian Geographer (IX century). Even if we assume that this is an overstatement (and it is), there are a lot of other sources that confirm the existence of big cities of Khazars, including archeology. And I am not talking about their tributaries, but about actual Khazar cities.

Itil – the most famous Khazar capital appears as a big city in Muslim sources. There were at least three big quarters according to Al-Masudi and Bek Joseph (ruler of Khazars who have correspondence with Andalusian Emir advisor Hasdai ibn Shaprut). Ibn Hawqal mention that Itil have more than 10000 Muslims and 30 mosques – this is another overstatement, but there are too many sources about Itil that confirm its big size. Ibn Hawqal also mention, that most of the Itil buildings are made from clay, wood and felt, but Khazar ruler owns a palace made from bricks. There were also churches, synagogues, baths and huge markets with merchants from different countries.

There are even more interesting examples like Sarkel fortress - Constantine VII Porphyrogenitus mentioned in his works that this fortress was built for Khazars by Petronas Kamateros, one the imperial officials. This fortress was built entirely of stone. Romans built it for Khazars because they were their allies against Abbasids that time.

There are many more Khazar cities, especially nameless ones (found by archaeologists), but I will not list them all. The point is that the Khazars had many cities, and quite large ones. This is not Baghdad or Changan, but these cities were not inferior to the cities of settled people. And that is only Khazars – another Turk and Mongol nomads also have big cities. So, nomads absolutely should have cities or castles.

As for the game mechanics – I think powerful nomadic ruler should be able to found cities, temples or castles in some baronies, but with big limitations. Most of his realm should remain steppe holdings. And if his county collapses this city must be converted to steppe holdings, because of other nomads plundering or because people just leave it in fear of being plundered (powerful rulers no longer protect them).